DIVE INTO REIKI: Welcome to the Dive Into Reiki podcast. I have an exceptional guest, Justin Stein. I should have called him Dr. Justin Stein because he has a Ph.D., but I'm taking Liberty to call him Justin. Justin is an instructor in Asian studies at Kwantlen Polytechnic University. His research program focuses on how exchanges within transnational networks have shaped spiritual and religious practices and ideas in the North Pacific region. His work on Reiki, including original translations of historical materials, has been published in three languages. His upcoming book, Alternate Currents: Reiki Healing, North Pacific Networks, and the Circulation of Transnational Spiritual Therapies, focuses on the life work of Hawayo Takata, whose cultural translation turned Reiki from an obscure Japanese practice into a source of healing and spiritual transformation for thousands of Americans, Canadians, and other thousands of Europeans all around the world. Thank you so much, Justin, for accepting this interview.

JUSTIN STEIN: Thank you, Nathalie. I just sent off another thing to the publisher about the book, and I was like, that title is too long. So, hopefully, when it hits the market, it'll have a little bit of a shorter title! It's a beautiful introduction. Thank you so much. It's really a pleasure to be here with you.

Dr. Justin Stein.

DIR: I'm so happy to talk to you. I was very confused by Reiki's history when I started my journey, and I googled things, and the results were all different. And I remember a book that actually stated aliens brought Reiki to earth. So, having you here because having that research background and all your knowledge is really priceless for all of us who are a little bit confused, and this confusion may be affecting the way we practice. However, before we go into history with your origin story, how did you become interested in Reiki?

JS: I don't know how long of a version of the story to tell, but I'll try to keep it in the medium range. First of all, my family, my mother particularly, has been a meditator since the 1970s. So, I grew up with yoga, meditation, mantras, and visualization as part of my development as a young person. I went to a healer who told us wild stories about all kinds of energies, entities, and all kinds of stuff. So, I've been exposed to this world from a young age. 

In my late teens and early twenties, I began practicing a chakra healing practice called Spiritual Human Yoga. And I got interested in the "what is this." On the one hand, it was—and I am a little bit hesitant to use this word because I'm a professional researcher of religious movements and spirituality—but it's what the common parlance would say was a bit cultish. The leader seemed a bit manipulative and told people things I thought were a little irresponsible. I felt this phenomenon in my body when I did the meditations, something powerful. It seemed like it was happening to me. When I would put my fingertips on someone, Wow! We both would feel like really remarkable phenomena. But, at the same time, it seemed like this organization was a little suspect. So I was interested in that phenomenon. I wrote and received a research grant to go around the world, looking at different forms of energy healing. My research question was about the role of money in energy healing. So, under that auspice, I received Reiki initiations first and second degrees while I was traveling first in India and then in Japan.

This was in 2001, 2002. After that, I also received initiations in other energy healing practices. I was practicing Qigong and different yoga meditations. I was 22, 23-years-old. I was probably the healthiest I'll ever be in my life. I was just a practitioner for a while, practicing on myself, some friends, and my family occasionally. And then I was like, "What if I continued that research more?" Like you said, the Reiki history was very unclear. I was also interested in Johrei and other healing practices with Japanese origins that have some similarities and some important differences.

I ended up going to the university of Hawaii. My original project for my master's was going to be a comparative project with Reiki and Johrei. And then my supervisor was like, "It's too much for a master's thesis, just pick one thing." And so I started being like, "Okay, I'll do a project on Reiki." Then my chapter on Reiki's history was getting more complicated, and people said, "Well, why don't you just write about that?" So that's what I ended up doing for my master's. And then, for my dissertation, I went further with it and got to do all these interviews with some of Hawayo Takata's earliest students in Hawaii. Some of her students on the mainland, I got to work with her granddaughter and successor, Phyllis Furumoto, to set up the archive of her personal papers. I got to read all these letters and go through all these photographs and the class list. I did a deep dive into that while also learning Japanese and reading the 1930s Japanese language newspapers from Hawaii, learning about that side of things, and trying to dig up whatever we could find from the 1920s from Japan. Like, what texts are still there? And, yeah, it's been really exciting. 

Through that research, I got involved with the Usui Reiki Ryoho Gakkai, the organization Usui sensei founded in 1922. I have been able to study under them and had permission to write about some of their oral history in some of my writings. I really feel very conscious and grateful that, like, at the end of the first century of Reiki, there's this global community that's growing more conscious of itself and trying to build these bridges between different parts of this giant global network. To be part of that process has been really a blessing.

DIR: Fantastic. And a blessing for us, too, that you chose Reiki and not Johrei. Sorry, Johrei people. We had discussed we would debunk some of the biggest myths in Reiki history. Let me know if you want to start with the ones on your list. 

JS: I've got a couple, but I'm also interested to hear what you've got.

DIR: Well, I have a list, so maybe we should start with one of yours and see if they match.

JS: Okay. So, one that I've got, and I think this is maybe a little controversial for some people, but you know, there's Western Reiki, and there's Japanese Reiki. And those two things are very clearly distinct from one another. And I think that that idea is born out of an orientalist view. Where [we believe] the East is the East and the West is the West, they never meet and never change. And we can actually learn the traditional Japanese practice, and that is the way it was done originally. It is the right thing. And there is this degraded way that people have degenerated [the practice that] is corrupt now. And we need to purify it and get back to the real original source.

I sympathize with some parts of that. There are certainly people doing things under the name Reiki that really doesn't bear much [resemblance to] what historically has been called Reiki. So I can sympathize with the desire for [this] kind of purification and drawing boundaries. And at the same time, Japan is changing, right? The way that the Gakkai, for example, practices today, it's not necessarily the way it was practiced a hundred years ago. And maybe that's good, maybe that's right. Our world is not the world it was a hundred years ago. One hundred years ago, they were really revering the emperor as a kind of Godman and saying if you recite his poetry, your heart will merge with his heart, and his heart is divine. And that will make you a better Reiki practitioner because this divine man has this incredible power, like a God. 

I'm not saying that maybe his poetry has no potential for spiritual inspiration, but at the same time, it was clearly immersed in a kind of imperialist nationalist culture that I think is very different from the way most of us [live]. I don't know if there are very strong Japanese nationalist practitioners out there who want to revive the Imperial family's importance in Japan. But I think for most of us, we can try to see what can be recuperated from those older practices and how they could be adapted for our present age. And so I think that a lot of them, the criticism of Hawayo Takata—that she changed things—what she was trying to do was, "How can I make sense of this practice for my north American students who don't know anything about respecting authority? Who are hippies who don't listen to me when I'm trying to tell them things? I need a new precept to honor your parents, teachers, and elders. I need to tell them, "Hey, part of Reiki is listening to your teacher. The exchange of energies and the story of Usui in the beggar's camp. When I talked to the older local Japanese practitioners in Hawaii, they didn't necessarily charge money for their treatments. But if they did a treatment, and it was a good treatment, and someone benefited from that, you are going to be sure they were giving you stuff in exchange. That was just part of their culture. And again, maybe people are trying to get away with getting something for free. Takata wanted to impress on her students that there needs to be some kind of exchange—for appreciation, for gratitude—and that that's a part of their healing. If they aren't grateful, they're not going to necessarily change. I think a lot [of people think], "When Reiki left Japan, it started getting bad." I'm not going to deny that there are things that have changed over the years that may not be in the practitioner's best interest. That's clear. But at the same, this [idea that] Japan is good, and West is bad kind of distinction, I think, is a myth that I've devoted a lot of energy to working [against].

DIR: Thanks for sharing that. I tend to group everything under Western Reiki, with over 100 styles. For me, the one wrong thing is to not practice, and the other is not to respect the system. And honestly, people are guilty of that on both sides, Eastern and Western. I like what you reminded us of: I'm not a Japanese living a hundred years ago. I may do martial arts and fantasize I am one, but I'm not. I live in Harlem. I take the subway. So, how do I make my practice work for me in everyday life?

JS: The thing about practice is that, for example, a lot of lineages lost certain practices now have been found [again] and are regaining popularity. Like meditation or like chanting, maybe. These practices are very powerful and were forgotten, but they were also replaced in certain so-called Western Reiki lineages with daily self-treatment. That became the replacement for the meditation practice. You have to treat yourself every day. Like you said, what's important is that you respect your practice and you do the practice. That is something that can be common in many different lineages around the world. 

DIR: I love that myth you debunked. I do. That one never even occurred to me. My turn. I wanted to demystify the idea that he had no teacher and that he suddenly felt like going to a mountain, and voilá, Reiki was born. 

JS: Yeah. It's an interesting topic. It's written on [Mikao Usui's] Memorial stone [he] was a man of great and broad learning. He was interested in history, philosophy, medicine, psychology, Christian and Buddhist scriptures, and physiognomy—reading people's faces and knowing their personalities—in incantation. The way of the immortals, like going up into a cave and doing maybe Qigong-type meditation. He was interested in a lot of things, and he clearly studied things.

On the other hand, in the Kokai Denju Setsumei, like the big thing that Usui wrote, the question and answer [booklet], he says, in response, how does this work? "Listen, I didn't learn this from anybody. It's a wholly original therapy. And even I don't really understand how it works. I'm the founder, but I went up into the mountains, and I was fasting, and the sky touched me or something… The air mysteriously inspired me. It touched me on the top of my head. And now I got this healing system." Like you said, that's not really the whole story, right? But there are both of these aspects.

DIR: I love this! And the word sky has such a deep meaning in Japanese culture. Sky for the expanded mind, for spiritual energy, emptiness…

JS: Actually, it's interesting what you said about emptiness because I've been very interested in that. The character for emptiness is also sort of [the character for the] sky. It's not actually what it says in this particular sentence, but I've been trying to go down that route a lot because, in esoteric Buddhist philosophy, there's a real connection between emptiness—the nature of all existence—and the skies and the universe. The universe as the source of Reiki, or the universe is filled with Reiki. It's not entirely clear, but the universe and Reiki are importantly linked. So that kind of connection with emptiness is something I'm super interested in. 

I asked the president and the former president of the Gakkai about this particular passage because it says taiki, it's really like the air. He was touched mysteriously by “the air,” and I'm like, what does that mean? And I thought maybe it could be read as dai ki as like a great ki. I was touched by a powerful ki, and they're like, "Oh no, no, no, it's not that it's taiki. And I'm like, okay, well, what does it mean there? And they're like, it's like the atmosphere, like ether. I'm like, yeah, but what is that? They're like, yeah, it's mysterious. I think that's part of what Usui is trying to say in that passage: I don't really know what Reiki is. I just do it. And for me, that's a powerful teaching.

DIR: Beautiful teaching: stop trying to understand it with your head; just practice and feel it.

JS: Yeah. But I want to get back to one other part of the question, and this was actually a recent insight for me. I don't think this is in my book. Maybe I should put it in before it gets published! So in the Takata story of Usui—the master narrative I call it—sometimes it's like Usui is like looking in the Japanese Sutras, and he can't find anything about the Buddha healing. So he goes, "Oh, these are translations. I have to look in the Chinese Sutras." And he looks in the Chinese Sutra and can't find anything. So he's like, "I have to learn Sanskrit." And he looks in the Sanskrit Sutras, and there he finds like the formula, she says. He knew he had to test it for himself. He goes to the mountain to test it and has the experience with the light. And then he sees the symbols in the sky or something. She didn't say that exactly. But that it confirms for him that the formula works. That's what he saw in the Sutras, right? 

The story is a story, and she tells stories as teaching tools. It's not necessarily literal. But suppose you know about the symbols and [their] origins of the symbols, what's sometimes called the mental, emotional symbol, or the second symbol has its roots in a Sanskrit syllable that's used in esoteric Buddhism in Japan to symbolize one of the Buddhas. He found a Sanskrit formula, and he tested it out. Then he had this experience. For me, that story makes sense in a new way. The symbol is, in a sense, like a "formula." He learned this stuff, tested it out, and all of a sudden, he had this crazy experience. He taught his advanced students these kinds of secret, sacred formulas. That part of Takata story like that for a long time, I was like, "Oh man, like, that's, that's a good story, but that's obviously not what happened"—now I'm like it's kind of like a symbolic way of telling what happened. Maybe he studied, and he studied, and he studied, and then he experienced, and then he realized this thing that he learned really works, and it's now part of the system.

DIR: But I, as you said, he studied. Like he went in-depth into the Sutras, and those Sutras are freaking hard to understand, and I always need to have the book that explains them to me.

JS: Right. But I think that could have been like a symbol, a metaphor. He studied the Sutras. Maybe he had some sort of esoteric master under whom he learned some practices, you know? That's the way she told the story. Sutra themselves are stories. And there are stories that connect you. It's like a suture, like a thread, and it connects the practitioner to the Buddha. It's like the Dharma. It's this way of connecting to our true self, the Bodhicitta. Through a story or a metaphor, we find our true selves or something. I think that there are a lot of layers there.

DIR: Also, you see the teachings shared differently in Japanese culture. I study martial arts, and people in the podcast are tired of hearing me say that, but they had to adapt the teaching to Americans. Because if you don't tell us what to do, we're not trained to just watch and repeat. And it's a very different way of teaching; they teach by showing. If you go to a dojo in Japan, they actually expect you to watch them repeat and then practice on your own for hours. Because the way of learning is different, it doesn't mean there wasn't studying there. 

In my dojo, they are kind to us; they let us know when we are doing something wrong, so we can figure out how to fix it. That would perhaps not happen in Japan. 

JS: Like you said, they are kind in your dojo to tell you, "No, that's not how you do it." Because if they don't say it, you're not going to figure it out because you haven't been socialized from a young age to be like, "Huh, my teacher isn't telling me anything. I bet I'm doing something wrong." [Laughs].

DIR: Yeah. I'm supposed to figure out how to do it by myself by practicing for 24 hours in the winter with a sword. [Laughs].

JS: But it's interesting because if you listen to Takata's tapes or her students' stories, people will ask questions, and she'll be like, "Stop asking questions; just look at my hands. Look at what I'm doing. Practice this, do this over and over again." 

DIR: The Japanese teaching method, but at least she said, look at me and learn. I'm sure in Japan, they will not even say that… I love your answer to that myth. Let's go for the next one. Your turn. 

JS: Okay. So one thing is that Reiki literally means universal life energy, which is what Takata told her students.

DIR: It doesn't? I'm excited! I had the idea that it was a valid translation!

JS: The problem is, like, it's a lot easier to be like, that's not a good translation. What is a good translation? Hard to say! [Laughs].

DIR: You have to talk more about what it is, then!

JS: Ki is probably easier in that it's a more well-known concept. But there's a lot of criticism of the idea of ki being energy in Shiatsu or Chinese medicine. Energy has a particular meaning. For example, there's matter, and there's energy—there's a kind of dualism in there. Whereas if you look at ancient teachings about ki or chi, there's not that dualism. It's both. 

DIR: Ooh, I love that. Shinshin kaizen: harmony of body and mind in the word ki already!

JS: Because we are literally like made of ki. And we are animated by ki. It's just that there are more; I think they call it turbid and more like light forms of ki. So, there's like denser ki, and there's lighter ki... It's all key on some level. Energy makes it sound like we could like measure it. It makes it sound like it goes from one thing to another like it gets transferred into it. And I think a lot of those things can be distracting from what ki is. You can get attached to thinking about that flow transfer kind of thing. I know it's very commonplace to talk about to channel. There's the universal source, and I'm like a tube, and it flows through me. But in my reading, the really early stuff doesn't talk about that at all.

But what does it say? It's very vague. Like I said, it's kind of everything's a mystery. It's not a very satisfying answer, but Usui, and the memorial stone as well, talk about that. There's like this Reiki of the universe, and it's related to this reinō. And reinō is another hard thing to translate, and it depends on how you want to translate. Let me get to rei first, and then maybe I'll come back to this. The character day can literally be spirit. It's time. But it can also be other things that are not spiritual, like reiyaku, like, manbyō no reiyaku, or what I would say, the miraculous medicine that can cure all diseases. It's not literally spiritual medicine because if you look up stuff from that time, aspirin was at a reiyaku. We might call it a wonder drug, a miracle medicine, or something like that.

At the same time, rei can mean spiritual, and that's where it gets confusing. Sometimes when they're using it's clearly a dualist kind of thing as opposed to the body. There is a part of the Kokai Denju Setsumei where Usui talks about rei-niku. So like spirit and flesh, a very dualistic thing in a sense. And Reiki is good; it unifies them. The spirit and the flesh get unified through this practice. And so there is this kind of dualism, which we need to overcome. In that sense, rei can be like spirit. There's another funny one. A student of Hayashi, this guy Matsui Shou. He's like, "Well, even though it's called Reiki, it can't be a spiritual practice, reiteki hō, because I'm not a good person, and I can do it." He's like, "I'm not spiritual, I'm not a great religious leader and I can do Reiki. So clearly, it's not spiritual, like a reiteki.

DIR: [Laughs]. Yeah, but it depends on how you use it, right?

JS: This is just to give an example of some people at that time in the Reiki world who weren't thinking of "rei" as "spiritual." Yeah. But I think another way to think about it—and what my kind of academic mentor Yoshinaga sensei has told me, and he's one of the big experts on these types of practices at that time—is that rei can mean wonderful, excellent. Kind of miraculous, marvelous. It's amazing ki. That could be a translation, amazing ki, wonderful ki. 

As you might know, in Chinese medicine, there are so many kinds of ki. Right. In Japan, you often talk about genki, your vitality. So, Reiki maybe is like this really wonderful kind of ki where if you are touched by Reiki… And actually, Usui says that we're all full of Reiki, all living things have Reiki in them, but that there's some way of maybe awakening it or realizing it, putting it into practice. And when that happens, when the ki that's innate in us and in our environments gets moving, awakened or something, then—in the language of the late 20th century—it reaches its highest potential. 

DIR: As millennials would say, to live your best life. 

JS: Exactly.

DIR: I think this translation is fascinating. I was attracted to Reiki because it felt very magical. However, what makes me love Reiki now is how human it is. I can work with the precepts when I am angry or settle my mind using hands-on healing. 

In martial arts, ki is a normal, everyday thing that can be developed and moved. It's there, but we usually don't pay attention to it. 

JS: Yeah. I was also just thinking about reihō, which is a thing you see a lot in the Memorial. A lot of times, it's translated as “spiritual method,” but again, if you think about it as being like this wonderful method… Oh, I had a connection… That Usui taught this wonderful method and so the precepts—you were talking about not getting angry—and on the one hand, you can think about that as spiritual development, right? To be in control of yourself and your emotions, to be hard working, to be grateful, to be kind, you could think of those as spiritual virtues or values. But you could also just think about it as moral, just being a good person.

I think the word spiritual obviously is a European word with its own connotations. And rei is of Chinese origin. Ling in Chinese and rei in Japan [have their] own connotations. And actually, they share this thing about being spirit on some level, but they also have their own connotations and place. 

I think, in our [cultural] context, "spirituality" does have this dualist concept where it's as opposed to the flesh. And there also is this kind of hierarchy, like who is the most spiritual or something that can creep into that language. It's about breathing. It's interesting. Like the spire on the top of the church, reaching up, aspiring towards God, towards heaven. Whereas I think in rei there is something about mystery there. Like when they talk about when you walk into the mountains, there's like reiki there. When you look up reiki in the Japanese dictionary, one of the examples you always see is the reiki of the mountains. Being in this mysterious kind of non-human place where you're very like small and alone. There are things you don't know out there, and you're surrounded by power. And again, I think there are overlaps with our idea of spirituality, but I think there are also differences.

DIR: And again, we are talking about Japan's culture from a hundred years ago, right? I spent six weeks in Japan and was shocked that interconnection with nature is everywhere. Concepts that may be significantly elevated here are everyday things over there. In temples, digital museums, gardens… you see the reference to the interconnection of humans and nature transpiring everywhere. And the importance of being in the body, not having a spiritual experience that is separate, which is a trend in Western culture. 

JS: I think there is that in the Japanese language too. Like the example I mentioned in the Q&A, he talks about rei-niku. Rei-niku is the spirit and body, and then it's like ichinyo, like to unify.

DIR: Yeah.

JS: And that's something they talk about right in martial arts as well. Right? 

DIR: Yes, I practice iaido, and we have the term ki-ken-tai-chi, the unity of spirit, sword, and body.  

JS: In Aikido, there is shin shin tōitsu. It's like the unification of mind and body, and a lot of times, it's through breath and ki awareness and all this stuff. 

I think there is something to that kind of like dualism on dualism in the West: we're so dualistic, and in Japan, they're not. But in the same way, in Japan, they're talking about like, "Yeah, in our ordinary lives, like we're too dualistic, and we need to overcome it." The other thing being that [Japanese in Mikao Usui's time] were modern. [It was the] early 20th century. One of the things I found from the period is, do you know what a theremin is?

DIR: No.

JS: It's like a musical instrument you play without touching. It's got an electromagnetic field, and you move your hand through it. They use it in sci-fi movies. It makes spooky music. You play it with your hand, just kind of waving around in the air. At that time, they called that the reiki koto. So koto, the Japanese instrument that you play with Reiki.

DIR: Oh, beautiful!

JS: Yeah. [Laughs]. I need to do a little more research into that, but I found that somewhere, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's so interesting." Because it was [invented] around the same time that all these discoveries into electromagnetics, radio, and all this stuff were going on—at the same time that Usui was teaching. 

DIR: Wow! We forget that Japan was still feudal until the 1860s. Usui was born during the industrial revolution and was a very modern person who brought new things. 

JS: Yeah. The village he was born in was like the old-time world, and in his lifetime, he saw this rapid modernization. It's pretty amazing. 

DIR: Indeed. I find it interesting that Reiki practice originated when people felt isolated from their life during the industrial revolution and has come back in another pretty intense transition, the digital revolution, when we are also feeling disconnected from our lives.

JS: That's really interesting. Yeah. There's been rapid change. There's this feeling of uncertainty and alienation, and [there is] striving for connection, groundedness, and ritual practice.

DIR: I have one more question, and then I will go to your Reiki "oops." The answer to this question may be very obvious for people familiar with Reiki history, so please bear with me. Many Reiki practitioners believe the chakras are integral to the original practice. Can you clarify this?

JS: Yeah. Thank you for the question. Certainly, the seven chakras [have a] very interesting story on its own like, how did that get codified? A lot of people say [that] for 5,000 years, the Indians have taught about these seven chakras, and they're all the colors of the rainbow. And actually, it's funny because that's a modern process too, where many different people have been describing the chakras in different ways over centuries. It was only in the late 19th century and early 20th century that it started to become a very ordered system. It's almost like a parallel story to that of Reiki, where of course, in east Asia, people have been healing with their hands for a long time too. Is it all like Reiki, or is Reiki the system that systematized [this] in the early 20th century? 

That's a little bit of a tangent, but yeah, in the early 20th century, the seven chakras that we like of [as] the yogic body were not widely known in Japan at that time. Usui was certainly not teaching that particular thing. If you look at the treatment manual, the hand positions in the handbook published by the Gakkai, I was always wondering, when was it first published? We found one where it says the first edition was 1922. We haven't seen the first edition, but we have seen one now from 1926. So, around the time Usui passed away, they were publishing this handbook, and the hand positions are not like you have to treat the seven chakras by any means.

But they are interesting references to particular vertebrae. For example, I think it's C seven, the seventh cervical vertebrae, is often associated with the throat chakra or something like that. And it's not lining up exactly with the chakras, but the fact that they're referring to vertebrae by their kind of Western anatomical numbers is pretty interesting and maybe was an influence of chiropractic. Tadao Yamaguchi actually points that out in his book. I had missed that. I read that book several times over the years, and I had missed it until recently. I went back to it, and I saw that. I was like, "Good point!" Because chiropractic was one of those things that were picking up in Japan at that point. But anyway, to return to your question, chakras were not an original part of the practice. 

But Takata, even though she didn't teach about chakras, she did read about yoga. And she was very interested in the glands, the endocrine system, and the hand positions corresponding to different glands in the body. And there's been a lot of work on chakras, nerve plexuses, and glands and linking all those things together. So, I think her focus on these different kinds of plexuses in the body may have been like the roots for the next generation in the 1980s, linking it with chakras and then taking off.

DIR: Yeah. When you think of the core treatment, it does add up. I don't work with chakras, but I still do those hands position. When people are like, "Did you do chakra balancing?" I am like, "Of course I did."  

JS: Right. Because that's how Reiki works, kind of…. But I was talking with a friend recently who researches yoga history, and I [mentioned] Joshin Kokyu Ho meditation. It's kind of like some stuff in Qigong, but it's also like this yoga book that was translated into Japanese in the early 20th century. And he is like, "Well, everybody's working with the same body on some level." So, there are only so many spots in the body you can focus on. And, I know some people like Frans Stiene have talked about the three diamonds that go back a long time in China. [It's] associated with the three purities of Daoism and esoteric Daoist meditation, Qigong meditation… Again, was Usui studying that specifically and saying, "There's the head center, the heart center, and the lower belly center?" I don't have any evidence for that either, but that, at least, is more of an East Asian common idea. And also, very popular at his time was [the butter meditation]. Have you ever heard of the butter meditation?

DIR: Is it the one where you envision butter melting and going down your spine?

JS: That was a very popular meditation. That goes back to the 18th century in Japan, in Usui's time. So imagining the hot butter melting down your head, down into your spine, and down into your torso, which kind of heals your body. That was a very popular visualization at the time. It also kind of has a bit of this similar chakra scanning, chakra balancing kind of meditation.

DIR: In the end, it's all about bringing the energy to the hara. There is something I love about what you pointed out. So Usui's awareness of the C seven vertebrae means he did have a Western influence. This means that, from its inception, Reiki had a beautiful crossover of different cultures. The sutras in both Chinese and Sanskrit, chiropractic studies, and some other influences. Even if we are purists, we need to understand that then.

JS: Yeah. I do want to make a footnote that we don't know that Usui was the one with the vertebrae, and it could have been that one of his students put it in there. 

DIR: Maybe he was a purist, and the students started messing it up early.

JS: No, that's not at all. [Laughs]. From the Memorial stone, it says he went to the West to study. I mean, it says he studied Christian scriptures. He obviously was interested in Western things, not to say that he was the Christian principle of Doshisha University, as Takata said. But there is something preserved at the time that he died in Japanese for everyone to see on a big stone in Tokyo that says this guy was interested in Western stuff. 

DIR: I love that you clarified that he's not a Christian doctor. I learned that at the beginning of my Reiki journey. 

JS: That's the biggest myth. I feel like enough people have talked about that. I do want to say he may have gone to Chicago. We don't know that he didn't go to Chicago. As Robert futon pointed out, there were a lot of different Christian seminaries associated with the university of Chicago. And some of them just don't have records of who was studying there at that time. So, it's possible he did go to Chicago to study Christianity. That's something I think we will never know. 

DIR: Another thing, when you said he studied Christianity, he studied all these things... the importance of curiosity. You are curiosity incarnated; you're a researcher. I'm very curious. For example, I think if things like, "why do martial arts and Reiki have in common? I think curiosity is something we can bring to our practice to deepen our understanding of it.

JS: It's interesting. The very first time I talked to Phyllis Furumoto, she interviewed me like the way you're interviewing me now on Skype for her radio show. And after the talk, I didn't know what she would think of me at all. I was very nervous about what she would think of me. And afterward, she said, "You know? The kinds of questions you ask and the things you're interested in are so different from the things I'm interested in." She's like, "The kinds of things that you want to know could not matter less to me, but I recognize that there's a lot of people out there in the world who are like you who want to know the answers to these things. For them, your work is really important. And I want to support you on your path because I can see you are someone who's well-fitted to ask and answer these types of questions." I thought that was a really powerful kind of thing. 

You said before about how history can inform our practice. And I don't think that's necessarily true for everybody. There are people out there who get their story from their master in their training. And for them, that's enough. They don't need anything else. They just want to dedicate themselves to the style that I practice, and I understand there are other ways of doing it, but for me, this is enough, and I want to do it this way. And I think that's great too. I'm not out here trying to tell anybody, "Hey, like your teacher was wrong; you need to change." I understand that that's happening as a result. People are even at the heart of some of these lineages, saying, how do I honor what my teacher gave me and recognize that new historical insights are coming into being. I think that that's happening. And I think that's also natural. But yeah, it's not my agenda to go out and say, "Hey, everybody has to stop doing this because it's wrong." [Laughs].

DIR:  I think what you gave us was the opposite. You gave us a beautiful knowledge of being compassionate, open-minded, and understanding about the differences and evolution of Reiki practice since its inception; it already was weaving wisdom from different modalities. 

But also the importance of curiosity. When we plateau in our practice, let's change the filter and be more aware of what sensations I am feeling and what emotions come up. Can I observe them without judgment? Can I genuinely hold the space compassionately? 

And if we make mistakes, again, apply compassion and learn from them. These mistakes are teachable moments. And since we are talking about mistakes, I like to ask every guest about their biggest oops regarding Reiki practice. Would you share yours?

JS: Yeah… So, this was in 2002, and I was at a Reiki share in Kyoto. I was practicing all my Qigong, all my whatever… Actually, this may be a bit of what we were talking as well. I had been practicing a hybrid Reiki thing that I had developed that I thought was great. I was doing this kind of rhythmic breathing, visualization, and wow, I was really feeling [it]. When I was doing treatments, I was sweating, they were shaking, and it was like, "Wow, there is really something going on!"

I was at this Reiki share and had my hands on this guy's chest, this old man. And wow! It was a really intense feeling. I was like, "Okay. I want to pick my hands up because this is a little much what's happening right now" I felt like this magnetic pull where I couldn't pick my hands up. And I got like scared. I felt almost like being electrocuted. Not quite electrocuted—I remember one time I plugged in a dryer, holding onto the metal part of the plug, that was more intense. I couldn't let go of the plug. I knew I had to let go of the plug, but I couldn't. My fingers felt stuck to it. I felt like that a bit: my hands were like glued to this guy's chest. I got really worried and nervous. And then I never went back to that Reiki share. I stopped practicing for a while, and I went into a little bit of a dark period of my life where I was unhappy and worried about my project and all this stuff. 

I think at the time I was really in this mode of, I can make this more and more powerful and more powerful is better. When I practice, I think there's a lot of trying to step out of the way, just breathe and be present. Pay attention to your hands and pay attention to your feelings. I don't have as intense sensations as I did at that time when I was doing that kind of practice. But at the same time, it does seem like it's a much healthier practice that I learned out of that experience.

DIR: I love that. I call these experiences the Reiki dark night of the soul. They are the experience that transforms us. I think a lot of people will resonate with this!. 

Justin, there are no words to express my thanks. You opened my eyes to a lot of history because I am not a history nerd of Reiki. I'm really grateful. I could talk to you for hours. So I'm going to let you go, but it's a hard one to let go.

JS: [Laughs] Thanks, Nathalie.

Drawing inspired by Justin Stein.

Rika Saruhashi is a Reiki master from the Gendai Reiki lineage. Of Japanese origin, she has lived for the last 30 years in Madrid, Spain. Besides teaching and offering sessions, Rika has been translating Hiroshi Doi's speeches and writings since 1999 and just published a beautiful Spanish translation of the 125 Emperor Meiji's poems selected by Mikao Usui, under her imprint Neko Editorial.

DIVE INTO REIKI: Rika, I am very grateful to have you on the podcast!
RIKA SARUHASHI: Thank you for the invitation; I am very excited.

DIR: As I do with every interview, I wanted to start with your first experience with Reiki practice.
RS: How did I discover Reiki? It's a very maybe typical story for Japanese citizens. We didn't know about the existence of Usui Reiki Ryoho. So, I discovered Reiki in Spain through my Spanish friends. Before that, I saw the words Reiki in some magazines, and I was like, "It sounds like a Japanese word, but it sounds a little bit strange. What can I understand from this? Is this some kind of Japanese sect?" And maybe that is the typical impression of a Japanese citizen who first hears the word Reiki for the first time. [Laughs]

Rika Saruhashi

I was very sick from kidney dysfunction. I wasn't leading a normal life anymore. My Spanish friends—two brothers—recommended me to do Reiki. Reiki always sounded very, very strange to me. The word Reiki. But something motivated me to take a plane and go to a city called Vigo, in the North of Spain, in Galicia. I took a Reiki course there. I just loved it!

The things that I heard about Reiki's history, about the life of Mikao Usui, all sounded a little bit strange for a Japanese person, but we just loved it. I had been treated by many alternative [and] complementary methods, and I was learning to heal myself. But never got to know something like Reiki, and it changed my life in two days.

I also started to feel a lot better. I could lead an almost normal life. I didn't understand what happened, but I knew something very important had happened. That was my beginning.

DIR: It is interesting to see how you started—through the physical side—given that your writings are more on the spiritual side. A lot of us go to Reiki because of stress release. What was the first lineage you were trained in?
RS: It's called Usui Tibetan Reiki. I didn't even know what lineage it was. It's a school of Reiki that is widely spread in Spain. It's an American system. At that time, it didn't matter what it was, because I felt such benefit myself, I didn't even question it. I just loved Reiki.

DIR: That's such a beautiful point of view. Sometimes we get hung up on lineages, styles, and names instead of the quality of the practice and its benefits. So, as a Japanese person, it felt strange to hear Mikao Usui's story in your Western training. How did you end up training with the Gendai lineage?
RS: I was very happy with Usui Tibetan Reiki. Some things were not very correct from the point of view of Japanese people. It didn't matter to me because there is something about this that it doesn't matter in what lineage you belong to, what kind of Reiki you practice; Reiki always touches you, and Reiki always works. I was very happy for three years.

But then my master gave me a book by Frank Arjava Petter. It was in English, but I can understand English perfectly. I was very surprised to discover that Reiki existed in Japan and exists today too.

So my master and friend who recommended me to do Reiki [and I] started to prepare for a trip to Japan in 1999. It was the reason I got to know Gendai Reiki. I was very happy with what I had, but as we found out there was Reiki in Japan and that maybe we could find out some interesting things. So, we prepared ourselves and went there in a few months.

DIR: When I heard about the history of Reiki at my Western training, I didn't even suspect that was something odd with it. It made complete sense with my cultural background. In your case, your roots made you wonder and want to explore.
RS: Yes, yes. Because there is something beyond human forces, it's cosmic energy, what we call in Japanese, Reiki.

Also, I got to Japan, and the first thing I participated in without knowing it would happen was a Reiki Congress of Reiki Oneness.

DIR: That is serendipity!
RS: So I always believe in Reiki as one, no matter what method you learn. Reiki does something very important to a person. But of course, when I went in 1999, I was the only Japanese person, and also I was accustomed to translation because that was my profession for many years. So I translated all the courses in this congress. Then I realized because my Spanish friends, of course, don't know Japanese. So [I felt] this must be my mission. I can understand this perfectly in Japanese. And I also have Japanese sensitivity because I am from Japan. If thought, I have to do something about it. And I am the kind of person who doesn't think at all when I start something; I just start.

So, the next year, the year 2000, I had a lot of economic difficulties because I left my job as a translator because I loved Reiki so much that I wanted to dedicate myself to Reiki. But even then, I had to go to Japan for a very important historical event called [URRI-Usui Reiki Ryoho International]. It doesn't exist anymore. URI was to connect people from many types of schools of Reiki via the Internet. It existed for years. URRI organized its first meeting in Kyoto in 2000. I had to go because I also wanted to learn more from [Hiroshi] Doi sensei [who led the Gendai school]. My teacher from the other school was there too. I jumped into all of this without thinking; it was my destiny. I found my place in this world.

DIR: Can you explain Gendai Reiki to people unfamiliar with this lineage?
RS: It is Usui Reiki Ryoho, Gendai style. Hiroshi Doi has a very big life and very profound knowledge of what is Usui Reiki Ryoho of Mikao Usui. And [Gendai is also] called an updated version of Usui Reiki Ryoho. It's adapted to the contemporary world and daily practice and is a very profound version too.

It is also a fusion of Western Reiki—because Hiroshi Doi started like me with Western Reiki. Like many Japanese masters, they started with Western Reiki taught by Western Reiki masters in Japan. So, Hiroshi Doi knew Western Reiki and got to know the Usui Reiki Gakkai, the association Mikao Usui created in 1922. This year is one hundred years. So Doi sensei belongs to Usui Reiki Gakkai and knows traditional Reiki. But he saw merits in both types of Reiki. He also updated some techniques that started from Mikao Usui.

DIR: And you are a Japanese who lived in the US and now Spain. So, in a way, Gendai's blend of Western and Eastern is a reflection of who you are. It's a perfect fit!
RS: Yes, it's like destiny. When I wanted in 1999, I started with four Japanese masters because two of them teach together as a pair, but Gendai Reiki Ho is what attracted me the most. That's why although I had economic difficulties, I had to go back to Japan in 2000.

DIR: One of the things you mentioned in our previous chat was the emphasis on meditations like Hatsurei Ho and the concept of gentle healing. Leaning toward a daily practice that gently brings true transformation and healing.
RS: It's a bit crazy this story. Because I am from Japan, and my parents are from Japan. I lived abroad for my father's job; he used to work for Japan airlines. And I was also, as a young person, very much against anything from Japanese culture. But now, after living abroad for a long time, I love my culture and my tradition.

To tell you the truth, it can be surprising for practitioners that Japan was very much contaminated by Western culture in the post-war. We also received a lot of influence from Western culture during the Meiji era. In Japan, Reiki is something quick. You take a four hours seminar or course sometimes, and a maximum of seven hours for each level. And then nothing.

Not many people want to deepen their practice or [be consistent] in their practice. That is where my origin said, "That is not right. I want this, and I want to grow as a person. I feel very comfortable doing Reiki, and each time I grow, I feel very comfortable with myself. And I am feeling better every year. We can get this only through practice."

But I am not a serious person, and I am crazy too. So I got to a constant practice in a very gradual way. Or sometimes, my practice is to just put my hands on my body, and that's it, and I fall asleep, and that's all.

Several times a week, [I meet] what I call my Reiki family. Sometimes we work very deep, sometimes [we just enjoy each other's company.] But there is a lot of consistency. For many of us, it is joy, a hobby, a part of our life.

I am not a person with a rigid mind, but since 1999 I have always asked questions to Doi sensei. Deepening my knowledge about Reiki and sometimes writing about it. For now, I just have translated books, and I am not ready to write a book yet. But sometimes, I write for my blog and website.

DIR: When I studied Reiki many years ago, there was not a lot of good material. There were mostly some manuals published as a book. And now there are so many! You translated this beautiful book of Hiroshi Doi called Traditional Reiki that collects some of his speeches. There is this need for material because we don't need our "head" to practice, but we need our understanding to guide our practice. It's not intellectual knowledge, and it's an understanding that opens the door to a more profound practice.
You mentioned the meditation Hatsurei Ho. Can you explain what Hatsiurei Ho is and its role in your practice?
RS: Hatsurei Ho is something Mikao Usui started when he founded Usui Reiki Ryoho. It is a series of energy cleansing work and also spiritual elevation work.

For the spiritual elevation, the first thing they use is Emperor Meiji's poem. Tanka is a short form of waka, a Japanese poem with 31 syllables, and Mikao Usui selected 125 of them. He used to make his students recite these poems.

So the first step of Hatsurei Ho is to recite one of these poems. Then we do energy cleansing through Kenyoku Ho or dry bathing. Then we have the Purifying Breath (Joshin Kokyu Ho). Through visualization, we use the white light of Reiki and a type of breathing to cleanse your inner energy. Because there must be good resonance [between] internal Reiki and external Reiki, the Reiki of the universe. Then we have Seishin Toitsu.

When we practice in groups, a Shihan guides these sessions. Each [participant] receives from the Shihan what we call a Reiju, an external purification from the master. Because Hatsurei Ho is more to cleanse ourselves.

Then another form of elevating our spiritual energy is to recite the Gokai, the five principles of Reiki.

It is very interesting. Because Usui Reiki Ryoho is really self-purification and self-development work, we always have to extend the light to the universe. So that step of Hatsurei Ho is what we call prayer. [Places hands in Gassho]. We ask for the happiness of the rest of the world or the universe, and that is Hatsurei Ho.

I think it's a great idea from Usui sensei for Reiki practitioners. It's something very pleasant to do, something that's easy to do, but very effective. You don't have to go to Mount Kurama to fast or do something very hard; you just have to do something [with presence] and then get very good effects.

DIR: I love what you just said. Sometimes we think spiritual development involves great sacrifices or feats, like climbing a high mountain. But, in reality, we just have to be present. We don't need to get training after training; we just need to practice consistently with presence. This makes it so accessible. And even though Hatsurei Ho is a series of techniques, it is not very complex. Every human can do it, and even a kid can do it.
I didn't know any wakas, so I used to recite the precepts at the beginning of Hatsurei Ho instead of a waka. But now I have your book, and I go through a waka weekly. They are beautifully translated into Spanish, and I can't wait for you to do it in English. You actually worked in partnership with a poet. I love you are also bringing these beautiful illustrations. Is there anything you want to explain about wakas?
RS: Of course, reading them but also reciting them would be very interesting because then you can use fully the power of what we call Kotodama, a Japanese term that is… to work with the power of words. The only thing you need to do is to emit the sound, and the vibration of the sounds is what is going to work. Also, these words come from a person with a pure heart… with a great wish to grow. That's Emperor Meiji. So these words also have a lot of strength. Very powerful.

DIR: And for those unaware of Japan's history, Emperor Meiji was the one who modernized Japan in 1965. He was supposed to have a deeply spiritual side. Did he write ten thousand poems?
RS: No, I think it was 100 thousand!

DIR: And these were all meant to share a teaching. I am so glad you are rescuing this practice. Beyond recitation, I like to use them for reflection.
RS: What I am also doing in Spanish is writing about Gyosei. [A waka is] called Gyosei when written by a Japanese emperor. I am also organizing workshops where people can read, recite, and share their interpretations of the poems. I also give them historical context and the classical interpretation by scholars of the Taisho era—the era after Meiji.

This is a very important part of the Usui Reiki Ryoho practice. When you comprehend them, you comprehend a lot of other things.

DIR: When I hear of wakas, Hatsurei Ho, and recitation—it feels like an invitation to train further. We often end a certification feeling like they include all we need to know. But we must keep a beginner's mind, no matter how long we have been practicing.
Because we may have a long-standing practice, but sometimes, being exposed to something different can spark an insight. Or at least lets us know that there are other ways to practice. We all have different practices, but the core is the same.
So, I ask every person I interview is an oops or what you could call a teachable lesson. What would be one for you?
RS: I definitely have one that is very big. I am still working on it. When I started Reiki, it was such an experience, very pure, from the heart. I got to know wonderful people, one after another, like a chain. I ended up being surrounded by a beautiful Reiki family. But I left my profession in which I used to earn money and from which I never had a problem receiving money. But when I got to know all these beautiful, wonderful people, I started having difficulty charging money on many occasions. That is very typical, I think, with spiritual practitioners. We fall into this kind of misunderstanding. Of course, I charge for my courses and things like that, but we have been doing many activities together… Even though many of them know, they tell me in a very nice way and with a sense of humor, "Rika, you are an idiot; why don't you charge us?" [Laughs]

DIR: When your students and people tell you, please charge us; you know something is going on!
RS: Yes! Sometimes I was so into helping others I forgot about myself. And that is a big trap when you are in this kind of work. I am working on this kind of blockage I have, and I have done so for many years. Do you call them blocks?

DIR: Emotional blockages, limiting beliefs, needs not met… But also, as women, we were raised to care for others, to serve and give. I believe younger generations are a bit more balanced, but I still feel we need to ensure everyone is happy and do so for free.
RS: I was so happy. It is the kind of trap that you fall into because you feel happy helping others, but you need to eat. You need to pay your rent. Of course, I learned a lot. For me, it's been one of the most positive lessons I am going through. When you have a challenge that is very difficult for you to overcome, it really makes you work on that. For me, it's like an adventure. I learned to also enjoy this kind of adventure. Sometimes they seem negative, but now I thank these things that happen to me as my life lessons, and after passing through these kinds of challenges, I always grow. And I am so happy. I think what makes me happy as a person is my personal growth.

Many people don't like or fear big challenges or difficulties in life. It may sound a bit weird, but I love them now. I love them because they make me grow a lot. And I also work a lot: I cleanse, I cleanse, I cleanse; to understand some things. Maybe I started cleansing a part of myself, but other aspects are also being purified without knowing. It's very fascinating.

DIR: I love what you are saying about purifying. Sometimes in Reiki practice, we struggle to become versus letting go of what we are not. So I think that is an interesting mental shift: we don't need to achieve; we just need to cleanse and see that it is already in us.
It is also more real about Reiki practice. When I started, I believed I would place my hands on people and things, and everything would go just peachy. But the reality is that you will still face challenges, and practice allows you to remain more centered and grow from them.

What is the one thing that helped you regarding the challenge of charging money?

RS: Reiki is a wonderful and effective tool; we can heal many things with Reiki. But we also have to be open-minded and not to listen to other people. Maybe people who are a coach or who are just wise and are sharing their point of view about this. What helped me most was to open my mind and not try to solve everything with Reiki. I tried that for many years. [And then] I had enough with Reiki. That is a big oops too! But I realized I wasn't solving too much.

When I started to open my eyes… and also the COVID crisis made us a little bit dependent on the Internet, but it helped me a lot because I started to see teachers in Japan and their spirituality, and I had never been looking to Japanese people, and I have always thought about the United States and that the best masters came from the United States. So it opened my eyes, and I think that is very important.

Reiki is not just laying on your hands or doing purification and things like that. It is life itself. How we live our lives, and how we grow and develop as a person. Also, in a certain way, we are preparing to go from this work in a peaceful way. Reiki is everything. We are living a human experience, and thanks to Reiki, we are living with a different perspective of this human experience. So everything converges to Reiki for many of us.

DIR: Thank you so much, Rika, for this beautiful interview.
RS: Thank you!

Drawing inspired by Reika’s Reiki journey.

DIVE INTO REIKI: Graziano Scarascia is a Reiki Master and teacher based in Italy. He started practicing Reiki in 1990, studying both Western and Japanese styles. The author of two Reiki books, Graziano is also a clinical psychologist and the current national manager of Italy's Department of Holistic Science & Technique of AICS (Culture and Sport Italian Association). Additionally, he is the founder of the Italian Reiki school ReikiLife Cifor.

Graziano has been involved for four years in a holistic project hosted by one of the biggest Shopping Centers in Italy. Through this project, he offers free consultations and Reiki treatments to the shopping center's customers. He also conducted a research project about Reiki's effects published by the medical Magazine Alternative Therapies in Health and Medicine.

So, Graziano, welcome. Thank you so much for saying yes to this interview!

GRAZIANO SCARASCIA: Thank you so much for having me here. It is really a big pleasure to be here with you for this interview and have a good time with you.

DIR: I would love to begin like every interview: can you tell us about the first time you came into contact with Reiki practice?

GS: Well, I was 16 years old. At that moment, I was living in Switzerland, in Lucerne. A friend of mine, his mother, had just come from Germany, and she was a Reiki master. She was organizing a first level, and he said, "Do you want to come?" I was already practicing martial arts and was very interested in the energy field. But at that moment, I didn't have the money to take this course, so I had to [say no]. 

But Reiki remained in my mind. When I was 22, my parents when back to Italy. They opened their own business. I stayed [in Lucerne] maybe four years. My mom always said, "Come back. What are you doing there? We need that you come to help us." La mama, no? So, finally, I surrendered to my [mother's wishes] and went back to Italy.

At that moment, I was in Latina, near Rome, working at a discotheque. I knew a saxophonist practicing the Nam Myoho Renge Kyo Buddhist [mantra] from Nichiren Daishōnin. He invited me to go practice with him. I was very pleased about the singer of his group, they were living together, so I said, "OK, I will come to practice." But I had another [interest], maybe to know better this girl. So, then I started to practice Nam Myoho Renge Kyo. Every day I went there to practice, and it was very interesting. So much so that I practiced for five years. 

Suddenly one evening, he came to me and said, "Hey, listen, there is a Reiki course we have to go to." He got me a book. He said, "Read it. Tomorrow morning we have to wake up and go to Ostia, a nearby city, to take this course." Reiki came back into my mind, and I remembered I had heard about it in Switzerland. So, I said, "OK, let's go." And so I had my first Reiki class.

Graziano Scarascia

DIR: That's an interesting way to find Reiki. Most people get a session, or, in my case, I found it on Google. So, you started with Western Reiki?

GS: I started with Western Reiki, yes. I took the first level. Then after a year had passed, I took the second level with the same teacher. 

If I compare then and now… For example, he lent me a manual [made pf a few pages]. I had to draw the symbols, and he said, "Now we have to burn them." And I said, "Why?" "Because they lose the power." And I was very scared. "Oh, my God. If I write them somewhere, maybe they will lose their power, and I have this burden on mi for my whole life."

Hon Sha Ze Sho Nen was very difficult to memorize, you know? I was full of doubt. "Did I do it right? Maybe it's not like this?"

With time I understood a lot of stuff. But it was very interesting: this secret way to teach the second level of Reiki. 

From then on, eight years passed before I got my Master's [level]. Because I was not interested in teaching, and I was very shy. A very introverted guy. My main approach was the therapeutic way and treating people.

And I remember I was very "inside" Reiki. I studied, and I read a lot of books. I trained a lot to make my hands more sensitive, to feel people's biofield, and chakras diagnosis.

And I remember, I woke up, and at eight in the morning I took the bus, then took the train to Rome. I had three to four people to treat. Then I came back to Latina, I came back to Savaglio, where I was living, and I was completely immersed in the magic of Reiki. This period was very important for me. Because when I became a teacher, I had a very big background in therapeutic issues. 

But I also practiced meditation a lot. I went to a lot of retreats, even crazy retreats, like one on New Year's. Instead of going partying, I remember it was a retreat of five days without talking to people. Just meditation all day. Dynamics meditation, mantra meditation. And we didn't have to talk to each other. It was really interesting, you know why? Because maybe after two days, I watched people around me, and I would say, "OK, now he will watch me and want to talk with me." And it was exactly like this. Or I would go, "Now she will start to cry." And she started to cry. 

So I found out that verbal communication is important, but non-verbal is very strong. When you attune to this level and vibration, you get a lot of information. This retreat was very interesting for me. And I did several like this. 

DIR: I am trained in Japanese-style Reiki, which includes a lot of meditations, but I think it's great that—if you are trained in Western-style—you then balance it with meditation. So, how did you move towards a more Japanese style of Reiki from there?

GS: When I got my Master [certificate], I started a new [journey]. First, I was the guy who wanted to be a good therapist and help people heal to feel better. And then the teacher [journey] was obsessive. I wanted to know all the existing systems, and I had to get them and I had to study them. Because I wanted to find out the secret of Reiki. 

I always had the perception that something was missing. "I miss something. I have to know more." So, I got my Master's in a lot of systems in the Western style: Raku Kei, Karuna, and so on. And then, for the first time, something called the Usui Teate came to Italy with Frank Arjava Petter. I said, "OK, I have to go and do this, for sure. I want to see what is this Japanese Reiki." It was very interesting because when I was there, it was this, "Oh, I already do this." Or, "Oh, this I already talked about that I have to do it like this." So, it was a way to discover that a lot of information was already inside me. I just had to find a way to let it out. 

Then I went to Komyo Reiki with Hyakuten Inamoto. The first time he came to Italy, I had this initiation to get my Master's. And then Gendai Reiki. And all [of this] completed my formation as a Master. So I was a super Master with super styles in my lineage. But then, suddenly, I got into a crisis. I had a deep crisis in which I put everything in question. I said, "No, something is wrong here." 

This was a tipping point for me. Because exactly when I put everything in question, I took a step forward in Reiki. I stopped to read and listen to others. And I started to listen to myself and my inner voice, which was a very creative moment. It's like Reiki really started to flow. And in a very unexpected way. It was not just hands-on healing. Reiki came out when I was cooking or when drawing something. Or when I was talking to someone. For the first time, I felt I embodied Reiki. It was not something outside of me anymore. Something that I have to connect to or have to do something to have it. 

This, for me, was very important; it completely changed [my practice] and was a game changer. 

DIR: You went from performing rituals to embodying the essence of the practice. In the end, it's the precepts. And the more we embody them 24/7, the happier we are. 

But sometimes, we must go through all these studies to question our learnings and make the leap. I think, however, that as teachers and practitioners, we are often scared of questioning. So I appreciate that you bring forth the importance of inquiry. So, how many teachers did you have, like 300 hundred? 

GS: I had a lot!

DIR: How did you decide what to teach?

GS: Now, I teach self-empowerment. Actually, if you talk with me about Reiki to [express in words] how I see Reiki today. Because it doesn't match anymore the common stuff that people generally say about Reiki. 

It's been 30 years since I practice Reiki. I didn't start yesterday. And I was active [throughout that time]. At a certain point, when I became a Master, I worked like everyone else, and I tried to get money to have fun and a good life. At a certain point, I heard a voice that said, "This is what you have to do in your life. You are good at it; do it!" 

So, I decided to [quit my job]. Everybody was against me. "What are you doing? What is this Reiki? Nobody will follow you. You will be hungry. You will not earn money through this. Don't do it. It's a mistake. You have a [job] that gives you money; why risk it?" MY parents too were a little bit worried about me. I said, "No, don't worry. I will manage it."

I left my work, I left that city where I was and moved to another. Then I started to teach. I went from gym to gym. I made presentations. Everywhere they got me a spot, I was there and was talking about Reiki. I opened my school. People started to follow me. This was very important too for me. To have faith in myself. This changed a lot of the perception I have about myself. Before, I was the introverted, shy guy, the one on the side may be watching. Then, suddenly, a lot of energy I had inside was asking to come out. There was [a sense of] urgency. I followed it. It was very interesting because it started to flow.

At first, too, I was very idealistic about Reiki. I had a lot of mystical ideas and spiritual ideas because I came from a school a little bit like this. So my first five, six, seven years, I taught a bit in the traditional way. But then I changed. Because I started to see the critical point of this teaching. I said, "It doesn't work like this. If I make a reiki course in two days, it is not enough. It won't work." 

So I said to myself, "You have to change it." And I did. 

I think I was one of the first schools in Italy that started to offer more professional courses. So, the first level was one year; the second level was one year; the master level was more, even one year and a half course. I changed the way of teaching completely too. I had these models in front of me that were my teachers'. The Master was the one, the leader, the one you have to follow, the one that opens your channel, the one that connected you to power, the one that can heal you, can help you, and all this. 

At the time, [I decided to] step back, step back, step back and give the leadership to the students. And it is actually now my main way to teach. I am there and try to help them believe in themselves, to [see] inside [themselves], connect with their talents and potential, and stop delegating. There is no symbol, initiation, or something outside you that will fix your problems. You have to do it. Reiki is a good tool that can help you but everything achieved is not because of Reiki, the Reiki master, or whomever. It is thanks to you. 

It's in accordance with the meaning of DKM, this big bright light you have inside you, but you don't see it. You don't see it because you are looking somewhere else. You are identifying with something you are not. If you identify with something you are not, you can't see who you really are. My main work now… is to empower people. I try to help them see how beautiful and special they are. And to find out they have the potential to have a good life, to be happy. Everything is already there. You just have to take it and use it. And stop always delegating. 

Delegating is always like you're going to someone to drink. No, search your own water. Search the source. Then when you find the source, you are independent. This is my main mission with Reiki at the moment.

DIR: I would like to highlight two things you said: as a teacher, being a bright light to people can find their own light. You listened to that inner voice that told you to teach Reiki and had faith but followed it with action. Because a lot of time, we rely on faith to bring things to us versus pairing faith with action.

Talking about action, often we complain there is no Reiki research. You decided to create your own. Can you talk about it a little?

GS: I did this research with my colleague, Luigi Christiano. It came about because in my field, psychology, or when talking to doctors who were students of mine, there always had a [somewhat] skeptical attitude towards Reiki. And there were, like yes, we know it makes you feel relaxed. But you know relaxation has a lot of benefits. Your muscles relax, and the pain may go away.

The scientific method is like this; they have a pattern. And they say, "OK, you lay down, the light is dimmer, nice soft music, and then someone comes and touches you. All of these have a big impact on the mind." And it is true. Especially the touch. Touch has a very strong impact on the human body in a hormonal way. 

I was involved in this project in this big shopping center. I asked myself why not use this context to do research. And this time, I want to try to isolate the effects of Reiki. I want to see what happens if I take out all of these variables, like the light, the music, and the touch. Another factor is that [the people used in the research] must never have had a Reiki treatment in their lives. So, they would not have a bias. If they already receive Reiki treatments, they may have some expectations about it. So, these 70 people [used in the research] never had any Reiki treatments. They came in. I didn't tell them anything; I didn't make conversation for relaxation before. Outside, they had already signed the release, but that didn't tell them much; it just asked, "Do you know Reiki?" If they answered yes, but I didn't know anyone who would offer it, I have not received a session yet, then OK, they could be part of it. These were the admission criteria we had. 

Once in, I made them lay down and said, "Don't close your eyes." There was a strong neon light on top and all the noise from the shopping mall. 

DIR: That is so not relaxing!

GS: I know! Imagine someone telling you, lay down and don't close your eye, and nothing more. They would ask, "What will happen?" and I answered, "No talking." It was very important. Because even when you talk, you have an influence. Even your looks and how they perceive you can have an impact. So, I really tried to take out all influences and made a byosen [scanning] first. Then I treated from head to toe the positions usually used in Western Reiki. I stayed a little bit more on the points I felt they needed to get more treatment. 

In the end, I said, "Get up and sit down." And I handed them the questionnaire with Likert scales. They had to rate their perception from 5, very much, to 1, nothing. For example, Did the light disturb you? Did you feel cold? Tingling? Did you get paid? Did you feel relaxed? All the feelings you can have during a Reiki session. 

We took the data and analyzed it. What came out was really interesting. We became aware that a high percentage of people felt relaxed. 

DIR: Wow, and without touch.

GS: Without anything. A lot of people felt this sensation of heat, and I wasn't touching and was like this [gesture indicates a distance of approximately 6 inches]. Part of the people who had pain, the pain went away. They also had cognitive perceptions, and some thoughts changed. Maybe at first, they were a little bit sad, and after they felt good. 

Then we had a final question, "Would you do it again? Would you take a Reiki course?"

It's the first research made by someone in that way. There is a lot of Reiki research being done in several fields–about cancer and other fields. But this is perhaps the first in which we try to isolate the effects of Reiki. 

We could take it further because as they lay down, they may feel something and create expectations…

DIR: You are more optimistic than I am. Because if I am lying down, I would next expect anything good to happen by default; I would think you may chop me into pieces. So it goes both ways!

GS: [Laughs]

DIR: You did a paper on your research. How was it received?

GS: I was asked to present the outcome. For example, the European Reiki Group invited me. The Portuguese Association also gave me the Hayashi Research Award for this research. It is a drop in the ocean. But it can be very interesting for future research. They can see what we did and say we can do this better. We can do it in another way. I also made some webinars in Italy to share the results.

I think a Reiki master that also has the possibility to do research should do it. Now in the hospital [where I work], they are thinking of the approach they want to do with Reiki but also with mindfulness. Because I [mastered] mindfulness. We want to apply these techniques to people with heart diseases to manage their emotions their fears. Because after a heart [attack], it is very difficult to go back to normal life. You always feel it can happen again. We want to give them tools and instruments to manage these feelings: Reiki, mindfulness, and meditations. We're working on this kind of research now. 

DIR: I want to round up the research topic by highlighting a few things. Most of us want to do it but find it hard to organize. So, it was you and a partner. Consistency seems to have been crucial: the same practitioner. Same place. Same environment. Also, understanding the psychology of human beings and relaxation. So taking those variables out. I think some other studies also make sure people are not on medication. 

So, if people want to research, they should be aware of these variables. Additionally, you invested a lot of time doing [70] free sessions. 

GS: Yes, and not all research about Reiki and mindfulness gets published. You have to pay for it. But this research was published by a magazine. So, actually, I don't have the publisher's rights. This is why I can talk about it but can't share it. For us, this was a confirmation that we did a good job. 

DIR: You are also a psychologist. We often say Reiki is beneficial for mental health. As a professional, can you elaborate on how Reiki practice supports mental health?

GS: Yes. I can give a practical example. Let's take the Five Principles. At first, when I teach them, I see people are very enthusiastic about them: don't anger, don't worry, be grateful, and so on. They learn to say it in their minds. They come to me and say, "Oh, I printed them. I put them in the refrigerator. It's the first thing I see when I start the day. I wrote them on a post-it at work. [I put it on] my PC. But when I said, "OK, but what kind of effect do they have on your life?" Then they start: "It's difficult. They are nice, but I don't know how to apply them."

So, I tried to make them, and I made worksheets for them. It's a cognitive strategy to make them more aware. For example, anger I classified into four. And then I put in days, hours. And it went like this: So now you are maybe angry. After things happen… and you calm down, you take this worksheet and write: Monday, 8 o'clock and the kind of anger you felt. Then in the evening, they have to analyze it. Why did I get angry? What happened? Because it is not possible not to get angry. It's a human emotion. You will have it, but you can manage it. 

I always tell them to stick to one precept for a week, then go to the next. Then the new cycle will be one month. One month on anger, one month on worry. And I tell them at the end of the month, make a statistic. Which type of anger is the stronger in your life, and then start to work on it. Which worry is the strongest in your life, and then start to work on it. 

This actually works. I tell them too, to have a diary. Write every day and try to bring out the most important factors you saw that day. That can be emotions, happenings, or talks. 

This way, you can take a precept and put it in your life to make them work. So, my psychology studies helped me give people a strategy to apply [the precepts.] The precepts are the most powerful tool Reiki gives you.

DIR: I agree. In my opinion, the Precepts are a tool that helps you expand your self-knowledge and improve your life over time. Hands-on healing relaxes and helps heal, but the Precepts are an active tool. Before I worked with the Precepts, Reiki practice did not have much of an effect on me. I felt better, and my skin glowed. The transformation came from working with the Precepts. In reflecting on why do I always get so angry? Why do I freak out?

Additionally, I feel people feel very guilty about the Precepts. Because they get angry, they worry. And the Precepts are not about not feeling these emotions but using them for self-exploration. 

Changing gears, can you tell me a little bit about the state of Reiki in Italy?

GS: [There is the scientific perception.] Some hospitals experimented with Reiki. They did some projects to use Reiki in hospitals. I think who presents the project is also important. You have to have credibility first before you can give credibility to something. There were several doctors who tried to… even they did research. There are different Italians who have done the research.

Then there is the social perception of Reiki. And I don't want to say Italy is worse than other places, because I think we have almost the same issues everywhere. 

What I see… And this is also very relative. Because now, I see things from the point of view of someone who, for 30 years, actively researched Reiki and has a more mature point of view and a different awareness of Reiki. So, I can't compare myself with someone that started maybe one year ago and is still in the process I was.

DIR: Yes, the process we all went through.

GS: I am critical because not everybody has 30 years of experience. It will be fair to debate with someone who has also practiced for 30 years. If I talk with someone who has maybe two or three years of experience and I want to give them my point of view, they will say, "What you are telling me is not Reiki; this is something completely different."

And I can understand that.

Most people in Italy see it as something very mystical. Something where someone comes and activates your channels. This is crazy also. As teachers, we have to change this. We have the responsibility to say the truth. We don't open anything; everything is already open. And saying that [you open channels means] that you want to have the power. Because if you open something, you are also able to close it. It's not possible that you can open something and not close it. And this would be a very big responsibility. So, everybody is open. And Usui said it, 'We all are Reiki."

Listen, you opened Pandora's box!

DIR: [Laughs.] What you are saying is true also for New York and possibly everywhere!

GS: When we talk about this stuff, we need to [assume] a moral and ethical responsibility to say the truth to people. Reiki is not a dogma; it's not a religion. But when we make people believe that to enter this community, you need to have your channels opened, you have to believe this energy is wise, intelligent, and will do everything, then there is discrimination. It means this energy will [look around and] say, "Nathalie, you took Reiki? Then I can pass through you! Francesco, you didn't get Reiki training; sorry, I can't!" This is crazy. If it were like this, I would stop being a Reiki master at that moment. But thank God it's not like that. Everybody is welcome.

Rituals are important in human society. We have thousands of rituals, and they generally are used to [mark a] change. You pass from one situation to another situation—from not being in the community to being in the community. 

The ones who represent the community, we just allow you to come into the community. And we want to celebrate it with an initiation ceremony. 

I say it like this: it's just the first step you make to start to go inside, and I want to celebrate it. I accept you in my school and lineage, and I want to make a ceremony. But far away from all this power stuff of "I open you, and now thanks to me, you can go and use all this energy." This is crazy. 

When I talk to people generally in Italy. They never asked me what do you teach in your courses for one year? They say, "Yes, but how can you open the channel with this initiation or activation?" It means that for them in Reiki, it goes like this: activation, and then you become a healer. And this is a big, big, big mistake. 

Because if you want to be helpful to someone in a therapeutical way, you have to have competencies. You cannot lay your hands on someone and then think that something magical happens and you are just a vessel. And this energy passes, and you are not responsible about. You don't give anything. This is crazy. Where does my energy go? It disappears? It cannot disappear. I am here. I am thinking. I am breathing. 

Even if this other person has a personal outcome, maybe starting to cry or having a big emotional moment, how are you managing it? What are you going to do? So, we need to be competent. I always say the first step is to heal yourself. Then when you heal yourself, you need to start mastering these tools. Then you can approach others. You need to understand a lot of stuff about the human being: the mind, the body; it's not just hands-on healing. 

I think we know very little about this. And what we know is biased. It's what we were told. But when you start to experience it, it is a game changer. You start seeing [the practice] in another way, you know? I could stay here and talk about it for hours, but…

DIR: I know, and I think you are making a point consistently: the need for self-empowerment. And of us, as teachers, "give" this ability to a student; we are not empowering them. 

GS: Exactly. 

DIR: Often, we get to Reiki because we are not happy. That's why I got into Reiki, and I was like, "Hey, I touch people, and now everything is good!" That is a big oops. 

GS: And this is dangerous. Because if you think you can heal someone, it means you have a lot of responsibility. It means I can't sleep at night. Because if I sleep eight hours, how many people I [am not healing]. And no, everyone has their own responsibility to improve their lives. And you can just give them tools. So this is really a big mistake, a dangerous mistake. 

Even [during treatments], you don't give energy. You pass the information.

Imagine this: we are now breathing, but do you see the air? No, you don't, but you are breathing. When you breathe in, then you breathe out. So when we refer to Ki and Rei, when you breathe in, the source comes from the outside, from the Rei. And when you breathe out, it changes something, when it goes in and out, and this is new information for the whole.

So, when you practice Reiki, you don't give energy to him; you give energy to the field. And the other takes in the energy, which is also the information you are passing. Then you have to metabolize it to get awareness about some stuff. And this can make [people] improve. 

Like this, it's even nicer. It means you, [the client], took the responsibility to change your life. It's not because [someone] treated you or gave you something. And you go like thank you, thank you. 

I think this is very important. 

DIR: I have one last question, and you can choose what you want to share. Can you give us a light-hearted insight that was a great lesson or a simple tip to improve our practice? 

GS: Yes. You know, the reality you see around you is like you represent it to yourself, and it's not like it is. And so, if you want to change something, and change something outside, you have to start with yourself. 

It means take everything life offers you: Reiki, meditation, whatever is fit for you, and then try to embody it. Be this. Be meditation. Be Reiki. And you will explore in this process how much insights and awareness you will bring to yourself that they will have a big impact and will reflect on reality. 

This can be difficult. Someone comes to me with difficulties and suffering, and when you go and say, "Hey, listen, nobody will heal you; take your problems and solve them." But the good news is that you have everything you need to do it. So, start believing in yourself. Believe in yourself. 

DIR: In your true self, the other self is always thinking weird things.

GS: [Laughs] Start with yourself, and then start believing in your true self. I think this is very important. I like to say this: the practitioner or the Master is like the darkness in the cinema or the silence at the opera. You don't see it, but it is necessary. It helps you to [listen to] the opera, it helps you to watch the movie. But it's your movie. You are the main actor. 

DIR: That is a beautiful metaphor. Because without darkness, it's hard to see the movie.

GS: And without silence, you can't hear the opera. This is your opera that is going on.

DIR: Hopefully, it won't be a Verdi opera. 

GS: [Laughs].

DIR: I like it because the more I teach, the less I try to speak. We are not there to explain and process everything for our students; we need to give them the space to explore. 

Is there anything you would like to add, Graziano?

GS: No, I think we are good. What had to be said was said.

DIR: And beautifully so! Thank you so much. It was great to get to know you better.

GS: Thank you.

Drawing inspired by Graziano.

DIVE INTO REIKI: Welcome to episode 13 of the Dive into Reiki podcast today with a lovely guest, Bronwen Logan. Bronwen is based in Australia, and she's a Reiki author, teacher, and co-founder of the International House of Reiki and Shibumi International Reiki Association. Due to her research into the Japanese aspect of the Reiki system since the early 2000s, Bronwen has been a major influence on how the system is taught and practiced worldwide. Her books, co-written with Frans Stiene, include The Reiki Sourcebook, The Japanese Art of Reiki, A to Z of Reiki Pocketbook, Reiki Techniques card deck, and Your Reiki Treatment. Bronwen also recorded the double CD Reiki meditations for self-healing and Reiki relaxation with Sounds True. 

Bronwen, I'm so grateful you accepted this invitation and that we all get a chance to know you better because I feel that we never see that other side of the International House Reiki. I would love to start with the same question I ask everyone on this podcast, when and how was the first time you discovered Reiki practice?

BRONWEN LOGAN: I would've been in my early 20s. I remember hearing about it then and thinking, what is this thing? And I remember some strange experience when I lived in Australia, and I went to some strange person's house, and they made me fill in all these forms. I actually have no idea what that was, but I remember that they were calling it Reiki. [Laughs]. I sort of went away from that thinking, "Huh? Okay." Then a couple years later, when I was living in Holland, my best friend came over to visit, and she had studied Reiki. She was doing Reiki on me all the time, and it was really lovely. That was a really excellent introduction. At that time in my life, I was trying to find out more about different practices. I was taking different meditation classes and just doing things to try to find out what might make me feel better in myself and stronger and happier. 

DIR:  I love when people come across Reiki through friends, especially a few years back when there weren't many professional practitioners. Right? Yeah. So what made you go from "I love receiving Reiki from my friend" to this is the practice that will, in a way, define your life.
BL: Well, I was living in Holland with Frans [Stiene, co-founder of the International House of Reiki]. We sold everything up and went to India. So yeah, it wasn't a holiday. We were going to travel through Asia, but he had very bad sciatica, which he'd had for a number of years. So we were looking for something because we were backpacking, you know. That's really hard to actually carry a backpack when you're in pain. So we were looking for something that could help with that. And we tried all different sorts of things and met different sorts of people. India is an amazingly [diverse] country. There are lots of different modalities and local indigenous things. That was very interesting.

Bronwen Logan.

 We went down to the South of India, where there's a lot of Ayurveda. That's like a traditional Indian healing system. We booked Frans into a little local place to have an ayurvedic treatment done, which is said to be very good for sciatica. We stayed there for a number of weeks while he was sort of going backward and forwards and having this treatment in the jungle. And at the same time, we were looking at healing modalities, and we came across a book. There was a book by Paula Horan. I think she's American and she lives in India. She had published a book about the system of Reiki. It was a very simple beginner's book. So that was really great. I remember sitting there, on the edge of the bed in the little room, trying to do this thing and not having any idea what I was doing. But very curious. So we thought that that would be an interesting practice to learn. 

When we went to Nepal, we came across an Englishman who lived there and was teaching the Reiki system. We were there for a number of months and studied through him. What he was teaching was a little bit all over the place, to be honest. But it sort of didn't matter in one way.

I did Reiki 1 and thought, "Oh, wow, this is truly amazing." And then I did Reiki 2, and I was just like, "Oh, this is something that could be—like you were saying before—like a defining moment. It's really something that will change everything, how I'm going to do things in life."

I was very fortunate at that time in my life that I didn't have a job to go to. I didn't have to do anything, you know, to be there for other people or do anything except really look at myself, see what was happening with me, and reach out to anything that could help me. So yeah, we then went on and did Reiki 3 there. It was great.

It was sort of mind-blowing this idea that we could teach this. So not long after being in Nepal, we went to Darjeeling in the Indian Himalayas, and we rented a house there right on the very top of Dajeerling, which we called Reiki House. And we started doing treatments and teaching people. 

So that was sort of it—it was definitely not my intention. And in fact, the reason why I went to India first was because I thought the food was really great. I love Indian food. So That was the main reason. And once I got there, it's a bit of an addiction, India. It's such a fascinating place. And then I thought we'd be moving on to Thailand and wherever else in Southeast Asia. But that didn't happen. I ended up being in India for two years at that point. Yeah. 

DIR: I love how many people go to India for a yoga or a spiritual journey. You went for food and ended up having a profoundly spiritual experience. I find the roads that take us to our destiny fascinating. So, how did you realize there was more to Reiki practice than the "all-over-the-place" training you got?
BL: When I first studied, the guy sort of had all these little bits of photocopies of this and that. This was in the late 1990s, and we didn't really have computers. I actually did get a computer when I started teaching the system of Reiki. And set up my first ever website, which was very exciting. You know, this long scrolly page. But what [out teacher] gave us was, I guess, photocopied out of books or things like that. And it was from different books, and I was like, how does this all fit together? I didn't have much of an idea. And then the idea that I wanted to teach people. How do you teach something that you know there's something really amazing there, but you are not quite sure how to put it all together. We did ask a lot of questions of that teacher and in the end, he told us not to contact him anymore. He just didn't know the answers, right? 

DIR:  [Laughs] I had the same experience. I called a teacher to ask questions, and he hung up on me too!
BL: [Laughs] Yeah. I mean, that's a difficult situation, but it's a really great learning lesson, isn't it? It's like, don't be like that. Don't do that. I've never said to anyone [that] I can't answer something. Even if I don't know the answer, I'll go away and work it out. Right. 

We came back to Australia, [where my mom lives] because I was pregnant, and continued to build a business. I had already done a teaching English as a Foreign Language course in England. I had done a little teaching before I left Australia as well. I studied performing arts. So I used to teach performing arts as well. So, we came back to Australia, and I did a business course. That was really great. I think a lot of the problems with people who are practicing the system of Reiki and want to start a business [is that] they may not have those skills, and it's another important part of that. But you learn, right? 

[The course] included things like marketing, how to do finances, and all those sorts of things—making your mind tick, go over in a different way and think about how you can best do this. That was really interesting. Within probably a year of that, I also did a teacher training and assessment course here as well in Australia. So just to get more teaching skills up, I think that's really important too. Another thing that people, you know, when they're teaching the system of Reiki, they just don't have the skills for teaching. So they're not really sure. Maybe they might be approaching things from an angle that might not work for their students. So, finding different ways of how people learn and what's the best thing for them. And that really helped me in creating the Ki Campus, our student website.

 And just while I'm talking about those things, also doing like a basic counseling skills course, you don't have to be a counselor because it's not about being a counselor but knowing how to be with someone if they're really upset. If someone comes in the door and they're not feeling great, what do you say to them? Just really basic, simple things like that I think are really helpful.

And first aid would be the other one that I would recommend that people have. I just saw in Australia that our treasurer for New South Wales—the state I'm in—was walking down the street, and someone had a fit in front of him and collapsed. He had his first aid, and he helped that person immediately. Everyone was like, "Wow, that's fantastic." I think it's a really good thing to have that. You can help people who are in need, and, as a Reiki practitioner, you just never know what's going to happen.

DIR: I think it's important because many of us struggle when we go professional. We may be just holding the space, or, as some people like to say, the energy is intelligent, but there is human interaction involved. How do we communicate during our sessions and classes? How do we react when our clients do something unexpected or have emotional releases? Those are human skills, and learning them can only benefit the people we serve and us. 
BL: Absolutely. A lot. I mean, as we speak, the energy is still flowing. Right? But there are still other aspects to this existence. They are the practical aspects which I think will make a big difference. And in fact, you know, they're the things that really set the International House of Reiki up to be the International House of Reiki. And if I look even at the name—the International House of Reiki. I mean, I would never have called our business the International House of Reiki. We were teaching out of our spare bedroom, with a baby in the other room when we started in Australia. But when I did the business course, they made me choose a name. The names that I wanted; I couldn't have. So, it automatically said, this is what we recommend that you should use because no one's got this name. I thought, "Well, Frans is from Holland, I'm from Australia, and we studied in Nepal and taught in India—that'll do [laughs].

DIR: And now you will teach classes worldwide and have the ki campus online. You grew into the name.
BL: In a way. I've always had quite an open sort of feeling with this, I must say. I've always [had the idea that] if you want to do something, you do it to the best that you can possibly do it. I did actually find that that year of teaching in Darjeeling was a bit like… [a sort of] internship. All that I would do in my week was get up, teach, and practice. We would go out and do treatments on local people, or they would come to us. Every couple of days, we were teaching people who were traveling through. So, it was a mixture of local people and travelers that we were working with, but it was constant. It was lovely. In this house that we lived, we had a lady who would come and make us breakfast. She was actually meant to be the cleaner, but she didn't like cleaning, so she'd make the breakfast [laugh], and that was really lovely and delicious. All I can think of when I think of that is pumpkin and tamarin and homemade rotis. So beautiful. Then we'd work, go out for lunch, come back, work, and go out for dinner because we didn't really have a kitchen. Then in the evening, I'd write. It was just heavenly. So non-stressful. You could just focus completely on what it is that you want to do. And so, it was a really great experience before moving back into the big world of having to earn a buck and that sort of thing. And have a baby. 

Back in Australia, we started researching more, and the internet was taking off. That was amazing. We started contacting people all around the world and saying, "What manuals do you use? What do you teach? Who did you study with?" 

[We] started collecting folder upon folder of information and putting that all together. And then in 2001, we went to Japan. I had worked out to meet different teachers that were living there. We met Chiyoko, Yamaguchi, who's no longer with us. Hyakuten Inamoto, a pure land monk. He took us around, and we met another teacher who was from the Gakkai. It was an excellent way to ground ourselves a little bit more in what was happening in Japan or had happened in Japan. There wasn't that much happening in Japan at the time. I noticed that a lot of the Japanese people were very much interested in what we were doing in the West. They were into things like Dolphin Reiki and, you know, things like that [laughs].

And I was like, "This is really weird! We want to know what people are doing in Japan, and Japan wants to know what's been happening over in the West." That was an interesting experience. 

So, we got all this information, put it together, and I spent at least a year writing The Reiki Sourcebook. The thing was that I met this guy who ran a bookstore here, and he'd written something like 55 books, and it was a spiritual bookstore. I don't even know how we got to talk, but anyway, we ended up going out, having a meeting and me saying, "This is the idea for the book." And he's like, "If you know what it is you want to write, it's going to happen." I said, "Okay." And he said, "Actually, I've got a publisher in the UK who would be more than happy to have a look at it. Write a couple of chapters, send [I will] send it through." And I did and got a publishing contract. So, it was really easy [and] really lovely. 

The good thing was that I had a date to have it finished. So, all that information I had to collate, go through, and make sense of—and that was The Reiki Sourcebook. I was so thrilled about that. It was a great thing to have put together because it expressed the confusion that I'd had when I started learning. It's not a book for a beginner, but if you were a teacher that you could look into this book and go, "So I was taught this technique, where does that technique come from? Or this is the lineage that I'm in. What does that mean?" You know, who says what, where, what was introduced at what point in that lineage and because there was a lot of confusion around what the system of Reiki was at that time. I think that writing that book and then The Japanese Art of Reiki has really helped to clarify for a lot of people what the system is. What it's made up of. The idea is that there's a certain number of elements that you have to practice to be able to say that you're actually working with the system of Reiki. Because what I found incredibly frustrating was that people would go, "Oh yeah, I do Reiki." And I'm thinking, "What do they mean I do Reiki? You know, like I do spiritual energy. I don't understand that." I mean, we are spiritual beings. We're also physical beings. It was just very confusing. So if someone says they do Reiki, does that mean they actually studied a course? Or did someone say my grandmother told me how to do something? Which I don't invalidate at all, but it may not be the system of Reiki. 

 It's a bit like saying that you do Tai Chi or something. Now Tai Chi is working with energy and moving. Well, if I work with energy and moving, do I do Tai Chi? No, I need to actually learn the practices, right?

DIR: And also bringing to light elements like Reiki meditations that were not well-known at the time. 

BL: When I studied in Nepal with the English guy, there were meditations, but they weren't the same. I think that people realize that if you're going to do spiritual practice, there is some level of meditative practice in that. 

When I first came back to Australia, at that time, I was talking to another Reiki teacher, and she was going to me, "Oh no, no, no, there's no breathing practices in the system of Reiki. I teach the real [Reiki]." You have to go through that experience. I went through that experience, anyway, of having to try to work out what was and wasn't real for me. Most of the people that you would talk to had studied through Western practices, through Hawayo Takata, who had taught from Hawaii. A lot of them had different ideas. Trying to discuss this was incredibly difficult. And that also helped to write because you're trying to refine what you're understanding from what you've been discovering and putting that together... I think the problem there was that, in the West, people were very much focused on hands-on-healing.

One of the elements of the system of Reiki is working with your hands. But it's just one of the aspects. It's not the aspect. We were taught the precepts right way back in the beginning, but it was not discussed and not really thought about. If we think about it now, we can see that the precepts are actually out of the five elements; the one that these are the four elements are saying if you work with us, then you'll be this. So it's the more important part, right? If there is a more important part… If we can be those precepts, then we can be the then we are Reiki. Then we discover our true selves. We discover what it means to be what, ultimately, we would call enlightened. 

DIR: For me, the precepts make the practice so much more approachable. When I meet people and want to explain Reiki, I just use the precepts: a spiritual practice that allows you to let go of anger and worry and to become more grateful and compassionate. Who doesn't want that?
BL: That's beautiful. For me, the system of Reiki is incredibly simple. It's not bells and whistles, and I'm very much no-rules-Reiki… Of course, there is a foundation and a structure.

DIR: Yes, because if not, people can go a little rogue there [laughs].
BL: When we start making rules, it's all in the head, it's all this rational, you know? What I think, you know what I mean? So letting that go. 

DIR: Changing gears a bit here: I would love to talk about your experience guiding Reiki meditations. I really enjoy the clarity with which you guide them and the way you use your voice to hold the space. A lot of us in the Reiki community create guided meditations. What are some of like the dos and don'ts when it comes to doing guided meditations? 
BL: I think a lot of people love guided meditation because it helps their brain to latch onto something. I mean, the Zen thing where you would sit for hours and do [nothing is] incredibly hard. In our society, we are more intellectually based. We are too top-heavy. Guided meditation will help with that. 

Some of the dos of guided meditations are: 

I always say to people, record yourself first… and then listen back. Does it make any sense what you just said? Because you might forget to tell people something simple like just to close their eyes or whatever. You might not think about what they're doing with their hands. So and people are thinking, "Oh!" So instead of them meditating, they're thinking about, "Am I meant to be doing this, or am I meant to be doing that? So physically really helping people move into the space and knowing where they are. 

I always say that with Reiki treatments as well, that what you want is the person to be really, really comfortable. Because the more comfortable that someone is, the less their mind is going to be active. If they're uncomfortable, then their mind's going to go, "What are they going to do now?" There's just all this stuff going on in their heads. What we really want is for them to be able to let go and to be in the space. So, making someone comfortable in whatever way that is, I think that's really important. 

I mean, there are lots of dos and don'ts, for example, telling them how long the meditation's going to be. Because they might think when you start [that] it's going to be five minutes, or they might think, "Oh my God, do I have to sit here for an hour?" Giving them guidelines, really supporting the person, thinking about the other person, being empathetic, putting yourself in their position. [These are] really basic fundamental things to do. 

The other thing is [that] when we are speaking, and we do meditation, we are going into that space as well. So, we need to be careful that we don't end up going [inward] it and [our voice] just fades away. Ensuring that you're actually still in the space with the students because it's very easy to go into your own practice. As a teacher, you need to be in both spaces at once. And that is a little bit of a challenge, but it's something that you can practice and get better at. 

But even though it's great to be in that space, because then we are holding that space, we also need to be able to feel that space. We need to also have that sense of knowing that we are here and being aware of what's going on for the students. You don't know what's going to happen. And different students can respond in different ways… They might be shocked by what's happening or something like that. And you need to be aware if that's happening in the group and if you need to be there for someone.

DIR: So I know that you also extended your teachings to Reiki with animals because you love them. What is your approach to this?
BL: About? Yeah. I've always had animals in my life. But, you know, I always see humans as animals. I've had lots of humans in my life too. [Laughs].

DIR: They're many animals too, but that's a New York joke. [Laughs].
BL: Yes, but I'm talking about well-mannered animals, Nathalie! [Laughs]. I've always had some animals. I find in our society, the way that we talk to children is quite different to the way that we talk to adults... With children, there are so many beautiful picture books where the animal talks, the animal is the same as you—I'm talking about non-human animals. Yeah. The non-human animals are the same as you and me… It has feelings. It can feel pain. It can be sad. It can be happy. And children love that, you know, and they see that in animals. 

Definitely, as a child, I related to animals. I just felt they were the same. I still have this image of my dad cleaning out the pond, and he had all these tadpoles in water in a bowl that he'd gotten out of the pond. He's going to throw them away, and I'm like, "Don't throw the pet!" And this adult world not understanding that. And yet this adult world had also come from this child world. So, when children grow up… it's like the rules change, you know?

How many kids have asked, "Oh, what is it that I'm eating?" And someone will say, "Well, that's pork." "What's pork?" "Well, you know that cute book about the pig? That's a pig you're eating." And then the child has to grow up and accept that this is what humans do. But we don't have to do that. We can retain that connection that we understand as children and that we don't mind allowing children to understand. And that we almost encourage children to understand. And then we take the humanity out of the humans.

I don't think I lost that particular humanity, at any rate, you know? I've always really retained this feeling. Not being the Lord of, but sharing my life with other animals—human or non-human. It just feels very right to me. When I was a kid, I had dogs, cats, and rabbits. Now I have a pig, Flora. I've got dogs and cats, and I've got horses, and I've had goats. I've got chickens and ducks. We all share this space together. And they all tell me what they want or what they don't want, or whether things are good or not good.

People love coming here because the animals actually share the space as well. I don't have a pig style. I don't know if you remember what that is. I do because my mother had a dairy farm with a pig style, and it's like this little space with these big pigs inside it. And they have to live in the mud. And that's actually not how pigs in their natural existence live. Thinking about how animals live and how they are at their happiest and trying to make way for them to experience that in the same way that I'm able to experience it. So, you can say, what does that have to do with the system of Reiki?

Like I said, I'm a bit of a "no-rules" Reiki person. I'm very much about letting go and finding truth in a situation and using the precepts to help me find those truths. And for me, the truths are that these animals need to live and exist in the best way that they can possibly live. I allow them to go everywhere, but I create ways to make everybody safe. To keep everybody happy. It's more about living together rather than me trying to make them do or be something for me.

DIR: Like a living embodiment of the practice versus offering hands-on healing to the pig for ten minutes.
BL: Yeah. My pig is very chatty. I've heard people say that they've never met a pig as chatty. She tells you the whole story. If there is something wrong, she tells me this whole thing, and she's gotten it out of the system. She's an absolutely amazing character, and it's wonderful for people to see an animal that they think of as food. People just have no idea what a pig is actually like. To meet a pig, to experience that is really meaningful… So then they actually need to have a think about things and [food]—would you eat your dog? 

The other thing that I was going to say about that is that I totally believe that each of us, we create our own universe. We create this world and how [we] live. And this is the life that I have chosen. So I think people need to think about that. If we can do good within this universe, other people see that, and that affects other people. 

DIR: I love that! I think that sometimes we want to save the world, but it's such a big endeavor that we never do anything. [Yet] just by changing ourselves and becoming kinder and more centered, we actually can create change.  To close my interviews, I like to ask people like you—renowned Reiki masters with many years of practice and very respected—if you can share an "oops," 'Whoops," or teachable lesson. 
BL: I think from a very personal level that we all need to constantly work on ourselves. And I think as a teacher, maybe I can't think of a good whoop for you, but being a better listener is definitely… a really good thing to know. That when things don't work out how you imagine them, just understanding that that's the way things are. 

I think there are a lot of those just very natural human things that I wish that I could be better. The only thing I can just think about right now is that I had someone in a class who had PTSD, and I did actually know that, but I didn't ask for details. I wish I'd known much more about that experience before I went into the class because that person actually had really severe PTSD and was actually taking medications... I mean, everything was fine and it all worked out in the end, but, you know, I really felt like I had let myself down by not understanding the situation better and obviously having to do more managing in the class than what I probably would have had to have done in the first place. So, you know, understanding those things about people [is an important lesson.]

DIR: I have one last question: can you share one single tip to deepen our practice?
BL: I think that this relates to what I was saying earlier: the idea of letting go. Yeah. Especially if we're stuck. I was saying before, no rules. Really just letting go of what you think you should be doing or shouldn't be doing. Letting that all go and just sitting in that [beautiful open]. And when we're in that open space, then everything comes. 

DIR: Thank you so much for sharing your wonderful knowledge and wisdom with us. 
BL: Thank you!

Drawing inspired by Bronwen’s internview.

DIVE INTO REIKI: Today I have a wonderful guest, Bill Stevens. Bill Stevens is a member of the Congregation of Christian Brothers and he taught 25 years in schools, before training to become a hospital chaplain. He served as a chaplain for ten years at three different hospitals in NY and NJ. While at St. Peter’s Medical Center in New Jersey he began to experience people with HIV/AIDS coming into the hospital in the 80’s, which led him to establish a nonprofit organization, Chrysalis Ministry, to reach out to those who experienced this disease as a death sentence at that time. It was during this twelve-year period of time that Bill incorporated Reiki into his ministry. After that, Bill worked with the visiting nurse supporting people at the end of life.  Bill has studied with teachers such as Khandro Kunzang Dechen Chodron, Gilbert Gallego, Hyakuten Inamoto, Frans Stiene and Kathleen Prasad. He still teaches at 88 from his home in New Rochelle, New York.  Bill, thank you so much for saying yes to the interview!
BILL STEVENS: You're welcome. Delighted to be with you, Nathalie.

DIR: I met you first at a play day with Frans Stiene, and then we had the retreat together in Lancaster. It was such a pleasure to practice together.
BS: Absolutely. Yeah, I remember that. That was a great weekend retreat.

DIR: I always start with the same question: when was the first time you came in contact with Reiki? What was your first experience?
BS: Well, it was with my teacher, Penny Nissen. As I started my ministry to people with Aids, I heard of a chaplain in San Francisco working in the hospitals out there. He was doing Reiki and I said, “What is Reiki?” I didn't know what it was. But he gave me the inspiration to find out. And I found the only Reiki master at the time in New Jersey—that was back in 1991—that I knew of anyway, there may have been others.

DIR: There was also no internet to look for them!
BS: Exactly. I made an arrangement to do a weekend course. I brought somebody who was living with HIV with me, and a woman, a social worker who was working with the community. The three of us went out and we did a weekend with this person, Penny Nissen. And we learned level 1 Reiki. I used that one class for the next seven, eight years, doing my work.

Bill Stevens,

DIR: Wow. I love that because we rush so much from Reiki 1 to Reiki 2 and Reiki 3. We go as fast as we can. And yet you did amazing work just with your Reiki level 1.
BS: Oh yeah, yeah. It was surprising to me. I didn't necessarily have any experience or was I able to talk with other people who were offering Reiki. I kept doing Reiki mainly because people were having such a positive experience. I wasn't feeling any big amounts of energy myself, but I just went into my meditation, followed the instructions that my teacher gave me for level 1 and just trusted [laughs]. And people just had some good experiences. I just was marveled by what they shared with me. I used to offer Reiki in various settings. I would go into a support group and while they were having their support group if someone wanted to have a Reiki session, I would be in another room. They could just slip out of the group, and come, and go back into the group.

I remember one person; he was really fighting an addiction and he had some mental issues as well. He came in for a session. At the end of the session, he just told me, “Wow.” He had a great experience, the most spiritual experience he ever experienced in his life. And I just said, “Wow” with him [laughs].

I would visit people in the hospital. I remember going into one particular person who had a lot of pain. I offered him Reiki and it helped his pain. It surprised both of us that the pain went away. And I visited him a few times, and he would just shout out, “Oh, here comes my pain medication” [Laughs.] I was afraid that the nurses would think I was bringing him some additional drugs!

DIR: That you were like the secret dealer of painkillers!
BS: But it was because of those experiences and similar ones, that I just persevered. I knew that it was making a difference for people

DIR: I appreciate you so much saying this. I have a lot of my students or people who approach me because of the podcast. They're so concerned about not feeling all those very strong sensations that some people feel. And when you say that you practice just trusting. And it works! I think it's going make them feel very much like, “I'm okay. I'm not doing anything wrong.”
BS: Yes. I think Frans Stiene, in his class, he taught me that. To let go of all [of that.] If you feel it, great. It's a gift. But don’t focus your attention on that, because it's not the essential part of what we're doing.

DIR: You sent me a lot of beautiful texts written by you. There was one where you were talking about taking your chaplain collar off and focused on holding the space. Could you elaborate a little bit on that experience that you had?
BS: Oh, yes. I was teaching for 25 years in our schools. I was in a very structured community life. You wear the black robes and the collar, and you tend to hide behind that. I mean, this is who you present to the world. That's all they see, whatever, whatever that means to them.

When I began my hospital chaplaincy, it was kind of like a clinical pastor education program. It's a very formal, structured training. We had three different sections of about 12 weeks each. We went through the first section of 12-week training and my counselor, the one running the program for our particular group of six people, she gave me the challenge to wear a suit the next time, without any collar. No black robes.

I was 45-50 years old at the time, and I said, “Oh, that's a challenge for me!” It was a big deal for me. I went into the hospital the first day, and I'd hear, “Hi brother. Hi brother.” No one made any remarks at all. But when I went in the room [without my collar], it was more of a challenge. But again, sometimes people threw me out of the room because of the collar! This time I had to go in as Bill Stevens, and that was a different experience. There's no agenda that people had put on me as I entered the room, you know? That was it was very growthful experience.

 DIR: Like you couldn't hide or protect behind anything. A little like our practice: you just place your hand and there is nothing to hide, nothing to do beyond trusting and being present.
BS: Yes, just going into your own meditation, and that’s all.

DIR: After many years of practicing Reiki Level 1 , what made you feel you needed or wanted to go further?
BS: I began to hear people speak about another level, and the opportunity arose. A teacher appeared. That always happens, when the student is ready, the teacher appears.  I did go to Leslie Mondou. She was offering a Level 2 class in the same lineage. And so I did take that. It was in that class that I heard of a teacher in in Maryland, Kunzang Dechen Chodron. She was an amazing woman. She was a nurse up in Vermont who was exposed to Reiki, but she had a transformative experience and was led to a Buddhist teacher who was giving a presentation. She became drawn to do to join by the Buddhist community in Maryland. And she was in Vermont. She left her profession, her friends, [and] her family. I think she was divorced at the time. but she did have a son. She made arrangements for him to be taken care of. I think he was going into college at the time. She went into this Buddhist community in Maryland and had incredible experience just for her own personal growth. She became involved with the Reiki Jin Kei Do lineage.

Seiji Takamori was one of the prominent people in that lineage. And he was a monk in Japan who got permission to go study over in Nepal and India. He went up into the mountains and studied with yogis for 20 years. He got deep into the Buddhist meditation practices and deep into the chakra work, energy work, and Qigong. That got all thrown into the teachings of the Reiki Jin Kei Do. And that's what my teacher experienced. She used to go over to Nepal maybe once or twice a year and spend a month in meditation with her teachers over there.

I did about 300 hours of study with her. I did the Reiki Jin Kei Do level 1, 2, 3, and two deeper teachings with what they called the Buddho EnerSense, which were a very deep Buddhist practices. It was challenging for me. I probably didn't understand it all [laughs], but I was very much exposed to it. I developed a deeper meditation practice, and I did do the master level with one of her students. That’s when I began to teach Reiki. Because the whole Aids development shifted at some point when people didn't have the medications, they needed to extend their life. And I was able to begin to teach some of the people that I used to serve with Reiki, so they could incorporate that into their lives and make that part of their recovery.

 DIR: We often practice Reiki with the expectation of becoming better, of enjoying a better life. But with end-of-life, it's a completely different perspective of what Reiki can offer. What did your practice offer them?
BS: The biggest part of the Chrysalis Ministry was to create a safe space for people. We had a wonderful nun who opened up a retreat house to us, and we did four-day retreat programs there. That was a time when people were afraid to come out of their houses, or even afraid to tell their family that they had Aids. There was such a stigma attached to it. Something very similar to COVID, the pandemic, that fear around it. So, they came together then at this retreat house. For 10 years, we did about four retreats a year, with about 50-60 people at a time. Some came back certainly more than once. Sometimes they would meet relatives there. They each had kept their secret from each other. It was people from all walks of [life], people who were homeless, people who were in shelters, people from Wall Street, gay men, straight men and women, people who picked up Aids from drug addiction. It was just a women and men together. It was just a great thing for them to come together and be safe. Then we broke them up into groups and they had all sorts of different programs going on. A big part of that [was that] every day we offered them a massage, and Reiki. Whichever they decided to choose and made that part of the day. We got massage practitioners volunteering their time to come at that time to offer this to them. It was really a wonderful experience for us and for them as well.

DIR: That is beautiful because they were not being touched a lot at the time. People were really scared of contagion. For them to receive touch it must have been very special.
BS: I became a massage practitioner as well for that purpose. Because [there were treated] almost like the leper, the untouchable, so they really appreciated that.

DIR: Reiki makes me feel safe in your body. The fact that you created a safe community where they could be safe, I find it a beautiful expression of the Reiki.
BS: Absolutely.

DIR: And from then you went to work with end-of-life services, right?
BS: Towards the end of the Chrysalis Ministry, I had open heart surgery, like an emergency. I took some time off. During that sabbatical year so to speak , I heard of end-of-life program that was being authored up in San Francisco by a Frank Ostaseski. I was kind of drawn to do that, probably because of my own experience around my open-heart surgery and my experience with the AIDS community. They’re very much end-of-life-issues. This was an opportunity to go deeper into that, to jump in and learn more about the end of life and how I could be with other people. And also just for myself personally. It was a great program and there's about 25 of us there. There were doctors, nurses, social workers, chaplains, volunteers. It was a great group of people.

We came together four days a month. And then we would go back to where our home was and do some field work. That threw us right into the situation so that we could come back with our experiences each month and talk about them. And also have that experience of being with someone at the end of life. There was a hospice, the Visiting Nurse association, in New Jersey. I asked them if I could volunteer there to do my field work. And so that's how that all started. That was a full year program. We went out there four days, each month and I learned so much. The teachers there were just incredible.

DIR: And can you share a little bit of some of your experience with of end-of-life care and Reiki practice?
BS: I asked the Visiting Nurses if I could get a job there as a chaplain. They said yes. I guess I was 70-years-old at the time. I think I said I would come in three days a week. I gave myself a little break [laughs]. No sooner I got into the work, I said, “Well, you know, I would like to offer Reiki to my patients. And they had a little problem with it, so they said, “Well, we have to go up before the board of directors and ask them about it.” So I had to leave my case before the board of directors and they put me on probation [laughs].

What I did first of all, I taught a group of nurses. I threw it out there, “Would anyone like to take a Reiki class?” Which they did and they enjoyed it. I would have someone send me patients, since they knew what it was and how they profited by it. Then I also asked the director. I said, “Whenever you have a real bad day, just give me a call, I'll come by, and I'll give you a session.” That happened pretty quickly; those days for her came up very often! So, she called me. I went in and gave her about a half hour Reiki session. She was convinced. I didn't have to I hide in my corner after that.

DIR: I love how you keep it so simple: when you have a bad day, come, and try this. That’s it.
BS: Right? Yeah. [Giving] an experience, right? Not to give a big spiel about it [laughs].

 DIR: What tip would you give someone who is working on an end-of-life program or in palliative services end of life?
BS: Well, yeah. I had to learn all that, you know, by making mistakes. When I called people, seeing if they wanted to visit, I got into the habit of saying Reiki is a spiritual, healing practice, which people find very relaxing and comforting. That's all the information I gave them on the phone. I had about less than a minute to ask them if they would like me to drop by. So, I couldn't go into a big history of Reiki. I felt that if a person was interested in spirituality or interested in healing, then they would be open to it. And if those words turned them off, then they would then they would say, “Thanks very much but no.” But that was okay. At least the door was open for people who were familiar with those words and wanted me to come and visit.

My only equipment was I had a little music box and my stool. When I came into the house, or the hospital room, I would decide where I wanted to sit. If I came into the house and the person was sitting in the chair, then I brought my stool over to the chair. If they're lying on the couch, I brought my stool right next to the couch. If they're lying in their bedroom, I brought my stool right there. And if I went into a hospital room instead of dragging chairs around, I could just bring my stool close to wherever the patient was in the bed.

It's amazing what little space you had there, but you could fit your stool right in there and set yourself down right beside them. And then that was where I would start offering Reiki to them. I wasn't doing a lot of hand positions. It was just placing your hands off the body or sometimes just being in your meditation. But the responses [were] very powerful in the sense of people being relieved of their pain or going into a very peaceful and relaxed place.

You never knew what kind of a situation you would go into. I remember once of just going into this room [and it] was almost totally dark. The whole room was lined with people in the chairs, and this bed was in the middle. The woman was in the bed, moaning very loudly. I had two of her children on the bed with her, and the husband on the side of the bed. I just went in and opened up my stool. I was at the end of the bed and began to offer Reiki without saying anything. At one point her husband had to leave the room and he signaled me to come closer. I was there about 45 minutes to an hour when finally the woman seemed to stop moaning and she seemed to be more peaceful. I stayed there another half hour, and then I left. Maybe a couple of hours after I left, she passed, and the husband told the social worker that she had been in this kind of condition, moaning and being very anxious, for a couple of weeks. And that was the most peaceful that he had seen her. And she died very peacefully at that time.

I always ask myself, what is Reiki? I don't know [laughs]. It's something very profound. It's not, not anything magical that you do because I know myself, [and] it's not anything coming from me. There's no magical thing that you're doing. You're kind of just becoming one with the energy. I love the way that Kathleen Prasad teaches Reiki: just becoming one with the animals. Just offering that space to them, but not pushing it on them. And Frans [Stiene] letting me know that this is a spiritual practice. The more you do your practice, paying attention to the precepts, opening up your heart, practicing your meditation and holding that space… the more you can do that, then healing is a possibility. But you don't have any expectations. You’re not to figure things out. You're not promising people anything. What is Reiki? A lot of times Frans used to tell us, “Just be Reiki.” Just be love, just, just be that. I think healing is like a side effect of your practice. The more you practice, the more possibilities there are.

 DIR: I love the way you expressed that, “The more you practice, the more possibilities, right?” Often new students try to understand what Reiki is with their head. But you can only understand through practice. What is your daily practice Bill? Like, because I know you also practice Tai Chi and Qigong.
BS: Well, each morning, I go for a walk. Then I come back home, and I'll do a half hour to 45 minutes of Tai Chi, and Qigong. That kind of quiets my mind. And then I will do a half hour to 45-minute meditation. I make sure I do that every day. But then I get to offer myself Reiki at night when I'm going to sleep [for] probably close to 45 minutes. When I wake up in the morning, I'll give myself Reiki as well. That's really my spiritual practice, you know?

DIR: I love your saying your spiritual practice being a chaplain. I often get emails from people who are worried about religion and Reiki. For those people who are a bit concerned about mixing religion and Reiki, could you share your point of view?
BS: Well, yes, I could. [Laughs]. At the hospice, I would be asked to do part of the volunteer training, talking about chaplaincy, talking about Reiki as well. When I mentioned Reiki as a spiritual practice, sometimes there would be a clergy person present, and they'd be kind of shocked that I would put Reiki as a spiritual practice, you know. Sometimes we would get into a little back and forth on it, but sometimes they would just be visibly upset with that. At one point, there was another chaplain at the VNA and he, very specifically, went into a discussion with me about Reiki being a spiritual practice. I think it's because of its Buddhist background. I think it's because like the church is the only one who has that authority, you know. That no one else can do healing but the person ordained.  That's very much there, you know?

There was a period of time, maybe in the nineties, that a group of bishops in the Catholic church came out very strongly against Reiki. After I left the hospital as a chaplain at St. Peter's they, they said the Bishop said it would be forbidden for anyone to do Reiki at the hospital. But how can they tell whatever you're doing in the hospital?

DIR: That's true, especially when you're in your meditation state.
BS: That there's nothing that they we’re doing [they can see]. But it went to that extent. I never let it interfere with my work in the hospital.  I think it's a matter of authority. But Jesus sent out his disciples to heal people in the village. He didn't grasp this as something that was only his. It was very spiritual thing. And the disciples went out into the villages and healed the people. So, it did come up for me, but I didn't allow it to interfere with anything I taught or anything I did personally. I think that the brothers never questioned anything, which was very helpful for me. They allowed me to do the things that I felt that I needed to do. They were supportive then in that way, so that was helpful

DIR: That was great. Thank you for sharing that. I always refer people who ask me about this to the Reiki principles of precepts, and I'm like, this is the embodiment of Reiki practice: Do not anger, do not worry. That is not evil. Thank you so much Bill for sharing you story. Is there anything you would like to add?
BS: Towards the end of my hospice work, I began to become more aware of Kathleen Prasad’s work. And during these last few years I've been becoming more involved in the shelters. She taught me so much. She and she has created the Let Animals Lead technique, where you just are there, and the animals come and take what they want instead of chasing after them. [Laugh].

DIR: She's wonderful. I think we should take the same approach to human treatments.
BS: Absolutely. That's why when you talk about distance healing, that's all you're doing, you're just holding that space for people. She was a great influence on me as well, and I really enjoy working with her.

DIR: And I love that you keep on training and keep on deepening your practice all the time. I find that so beautiful and inspiring as well.
BS: Well, thanks. Yeah. I have to do that. [Laughs.]

DIR: And you still teach, right?
BS: I was 40 years on my own in New Jersey and I'm 88 years old now. And so the community asked me to come back closer. So, I'm in one of our communities in New Rochelle, but I kept my contacts and I have zoom and I teach my Tai Chi classes on it. I'm teaching my Reiki classes on zoom. I'm doing a Reiki class this Saturday, and I do my healing circle once a month on zoom. So that's great. I keep in touch with a lot of people in New Jersey. I'm not pushing for anything here in New Rochelle. I just say whatever the universe sends me I'm here, but I don't go out and knock on doors anymore. [Laughs].

DIR: No it's, but I'll be sharing your website and all your details so people can reach out to you, especially if they're in new Rochelle—they're lucky people to be around you!
BS: Thank you very much.

DIR: Thank you so, so much for your time. And I'm looking forward to the Lancaster retreat in 2022. We're kidnapping you. I'm driving you down there. It's one year away but start packing. Okay?
BS: [Laughs].

Drawing inspired by Bill Stevens’s story.

DIVE INTO REIKI: I'm super excited to introduce my guest: Pamela Miles. Pamela is an internationally renowned Reiki master and the pioneer introducing Reiki practice to conventional medicine. She's collaborated with academic medical centers such as Harvard and Yale. She has been featured on The Dr. Oz Show, NBC, CBS, CNN, FOX, The Atlantic, US News & World Report, New York Magazine, Allure, and Self. Pamela is also the author of the award-winning REIKI: A Comprehensive Guide.

I went to Pamela's Reiki Clinic at the JCC in New York, and it really helped me find my footing when I first learned Western Reiki and was a bit lost.

PAMELA MILES: I always enjoyed having you [at the clinic]. I just want to clarify the term Western Reiki because I practice Western Reiki… it's not all "woo." I mean, my practice is not new-age at all. All of my Reiki masters were either trained by Hawayo Takata, or their Reiki masters were trained by Hawayo Takada. So, I learned the practice as Takata taught before Americans started, you know, making changes to it, which were mostly ad-ons—although they tried to make something simpler like you don't have to practice, which to me was the most fun part of it was actually practicing. 

DIR: I love that clarification: all Reiki is not the same. I love to hear your origin story. You're pretty unique compared to many beginner Reiki practitioners: you actually had a spiritual practice for years before you discovered Reiki. 
PM: That's so sweet for you to say I'm unique instead of odd. I like that spin on it, Nathalie. So yeah, by the time I came to Reiki practice in 1986, I already had been a student of meditation and yoga for almost 25 years. And I was a meditation teacher. I've lived in India in a monastery for a couple of years, doing really intensive spiritual practices, very serious practice. I was also a professional healer. I worked with people one-on-one doing what might now be called mind, body medicine, but back there was just odd. So unique is the word I'm going to stick with here. And the advantage that gave me was that I already had a daily spiritual practice. I understood that it's not enough to learn a practice; you learn a practice so that you can practice. And that the training that teaches you the practice, the teacher that teaches you the practice, you know, that's so special and you have at least regard if not reverence for that connection. But ultimately, if you don't practice, you're just tossing it out the window. To use marketing language, the practice is how you get that return on your investment. That's how you get your money's worth from your training. 

It always seemed odd to me that people finish one class, and they want to right away go to another class and get another certificate or whatever they get and go to another class. For me, I just couldn't wait to practice. I remember when I first learned to practice like I just couldn't wait till I had some time alone. [I did] my daily self-practice, my full protocol practice, first thing in the morning before I was out of bed. But then, during the day, I also wanted to practice. 

[…]

Compared to the effort involved in the other spiritual practices I had, this was very accessible. It was kind of fast and easy and fast and easy really aren't usually values of mine. But at the time that I experienced Reiki practice from a friend who had just taken the first-degree class, I had a five-year-old, and I was in early in my second pregnancy. So, I like to have spiritual practice every day. I just don't go a day without it. It's easier for me to fast or lose sleep. But I also remembered what it was like, when you give birth and in those early days, weeks, months, depending upon your baby. So, I was wondering how I was going to manage this. And then, I had an experience of Reiki from my friend. I quickly started to have the same inner experience and sensations that were very familiar to me because of all of my experience with spiritual practice, both at home and on retreat and such. Nothing that I experienced during my Reiki treatment was new to me other than the practice itself. This was a new way of becoming deeply indrawn and becoming more aware of my subtle being, my timelessness, and like that.

That gave me a very different perspective on the practice from the beginning. I could see this as a spiritual practice. Of course, we've come to know that. But it wasn't presented to me in that way or understood in the US in quite that way, with that language. From what I know, I think that Hawayo Takata did have that understanding. But she didn't put that language to it. And I'm sure she had very good reasons. You know, we all live in different times; we have to be ourselves of our time and carry the integrity of the practice. At least that's been a value for me. 

Pamela Miles.

DIR: No, absolutely. And as you said, we cannot really understand what it was to be her at that time. And she actually brought it here and spread it. But I think when you said, like, now we're coming to see it's a spiritual practice is still very new for many people watching this podcast. For most, it's still understood very much as an energy healing modality. But it goes a lot deeper. At the end of the meditation, you said something beautiful: bring it into your body and extend it into your life. This is so much more than just getting a session or doing your practice. It is about using it to transform your life. Can you talk a bit about the importance of the body in Reiki practice? 
PM: Well, the body is important because if we didn't have a body, we couldn't practice [she laughs].  

DIR: Yes, because sometimes we go into Lalaland with angels.
PM: People can practice in whatever way is meaningful to them, but the idea is not to disregard our bodies. The purpose of all spiritual practice is to be present and being present means being joyfully in our body. Because if we're not joyfully in our body, if we have discomfort with the body that we have, then we're not present. There's a part of us that's tied up with that, and that's worrying inside of us.

There's confusion or a lack of investigation into what spirituality is and what spiritual practice is in this culture. Many people have never thought of the difference between religion and spirituality. Or metaphysics and spirituality. We see that even more around Reiki practice, where people share their Reiki metaphysics. But if we ask people to see the world as we see it to practice Reiki, I think we're cutting out a lot of people who would otherwise really be interested in the experience and the benefits that Reiki practice brings. And the advantages it brings being uniquely accessible. I mean, it's just the easiest spiritual practice that I've come across. And I've been engaged in spiritual practices since I was a kid. There was a point at which I just said more than 50 years because that's enough.

Spiritual practice is to be present. To be able to live from our hearts. To keep our minds in good health too. I mean, a good intellect is important to discern and be a critical thinker. If you're engaged in anything around spirituality and you're not a critical thinker, you're going to fall for a lot of silly stuff. And you're going to be disappointed, especially if you don't have a daily practice because there are so many disappointments in life, right? I mean, this is something we're experiencing very acutely now with the pandemic and how long it's going on because people didn't think it would go on so long. They weren't quite seeing that this is a game-changer. This isn't a blip. And daily spiritual practice means that we step into our changes on a daily basis. So, we keep ourselves spiritually poised, settled in our bodies. And when something comes at us, we've got the resilience; we can roll with it. We can be creative. We don't forget who we are. We don't forget our timelessness. We don't forget our practice because our practice is the source of our resilience. 

DIR: I really admire people going through this without a spiritual practice. Before the pandemic was officially declared, you started a global practice group. Can you talk a bit about that? 
PM: Yeah. I had just come back. I had a few months with a lot of travel. I was in Europe, and then I was in Mexico, leading the Heart of Practice retreat. And then I was in Curaçao, and I was in Atlanta teaching, and I came back to New York, like March 1st, I think. I could see what was happening, you know? And I knew that people were going to be very frightened, and they were going to be isolated. I could see that we were going to wind up in some kind of a lockdown. Being frightened and being isolated is a devastating combination for your immune system. Either one of them compromises your immune function. And then those together can easily lead to depression, which further lessens people's immunity.

So, I was looking to see how I can support people in their self-practice and give them a sense of community. And since I'm kind of the queen of self-practice…

DIR: You were actually the first person who mentioned self-practice to me is like. I was like, "Am I supposed to have a self-practice? I didn't even know about that! 
PM: Well, I hear that from many, many people. That they've been through a class and either they were told to practice on themselves for 21 days, or it just never was even discussed. Whereas in my training, that's the core. You do a lot of self-practice. So, March 10th, I think, was the first one, the day before the world health organization declared the global pandemic. That was Tuesday at four, and then I added Saturday at 9:00 AM.  

Within, I don't know, six months or something, twenty-five thousand people had registered. And of course, not everybody registered and came back, but still, it was something that clearly was speaking to people. And the important idea for me was mixing care of self with community because everybody else wants to take care of other people, you know? And that's just more of maybe the thing that we need to change in this time. To change is our proclivity for looking outwards, like outwards for the Reiki energy as if it's something separate from us that we have to somehow trick into coming to us.

People say things like, I don't have my Reiki anymore. Well, do you practice? No. [Laughs] If we think of it asReiki practice instead of Reiki energy, it solves a lot of those problems. And also, we always know what's available to us, that accessibility and availability. It's so heartwarming because I get many, many emails from people who say, I've now been practicing every day for a month, for six months, for three weeks for—whatever is a landmark for them, something they never thought they could do. And they notice the difference. So the idea of healing the planet by healing ourselves and making that connection with the quote that we hear so often from Mahatma Gandhi, "be the change you want to see." Not fixing. And to get back to the idea of energy healing and practice: your energy healing is more along with the conventional medical fixing. Whereas spiritual practice reminds us of our intrinsic wholeness and wellness and lets all the disparate parts of ourselves come to rest in our spiritual self. Where we feel our core, and we remember who we are. And then mind, body, spirit, emotions, intellect, you know what, however, you want to name these different parts of ourselves that may be gremlins, they are all like, "Oh yeah!" They feel safe. And everybody behaves better when they feel safe. 

DIR: For me, one of the most significant gifts Reiki practice gave me was acceptance and compassion towards myself. Then by changing myself, I'm a lot kinder to my family and friends. So, as you said, the change starts inside, but it extends to affect people's lives. However, we tend to want to place our hands on other people and change them, so we like them more!
PM: And I think a lot of people feel that way. And, certainly, I've had my moments too. But compassion isn't for anyone. Compassion is a state; it's an attainment. And when we're willing to sit with ourselves and practice with ourselves, and we drop into our hearts, we experience the compassionate love that is our true nature. We feel it in ourselves because that's who we are first, but the way we are with other people is just a reflection of how we are with ourselves. Have you ever noticed that person who really pisses you off? If you're lucky, you'll catch yourself doing the thing that that person does that annoys you so much.

It's always just a reflection of how we feel about ourselves. So, as we feel unconditional self-love, even for a moment, it's a crack in the confusion. Then we just keep coming back to it, and we build a habit. This is another part of consistent daily self-practice that we're building a habit. We're building neural pathways. It's not just a good idea. You know, we're actually making it easier for us to take refuge in our center rather than refuge in our drama, which only creates more suffering. Life isn't always going to be easy. It certainly doesn't get easier when we start practicing, but we are more equipped. We're better equipped to be with the challenge because we feel safer. Feeling safe is a spiritual issue and spiritual attainment. Practice is the only way we can earn that experience and own it.

Otherwise, it's kind of like being on a diet where we're just having to say no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And we're not even sure that this is really going to work for us. But when we practice, especially practice self-Reiki, we experience pretty quickly that something good is happening. Our systems start to settle, and it happens on a discernible level in our nervous system. Wow. That's a big deal and a big difference. 

DIR: I love that you have a science and medical background. I love to now know that a part of my brain is actually changing.

I will use this to segue because you were vital in bringing Reiki to mainstream healthcare. You did fantastic work, and part of it is that you have a very down-to-earth approach and know the science behind it. How did you just wake up one day and say, "Hey, I need to bring this to healthcare?"
PM: I never said that! [Laughs]. [If I had], no one would have listened because I don't have a medical background. I mean, I did original research as an undergraduate. I have a couple of undergraduate degrees, so I've always had an interest. And my mother is a nurse, my sister, my grandmother, you know, so medicine has always been in my background. But I think that what gave me a unique qualification and, and I kind of started medical Reiki, was this marriage of spiritual practice and scientific intellect. And a desire to serve. I was invited to create the first hospital program because I was doing community service at gay men's health crisis here in New York City, offering Reiki training. At that point, it was still all guys with HIV aids. This was before the protest inhibitors and the drugs that have been developed that have really helped people be able to live with HIV Aids.

I mean, then it was really a death sentence, and everybody knew it. So, I started teaching people to practice on themselves and the doctors in infectious disease—that's what the Aids specialists were called—noticed that whenever they had a patient who was doing better than expected… invariably they talked about Reiki practice, and usually they were students of mine. So, the department head at what was then Beth Israel Medical Center, which is now, I think Mount Sinai Beth Israel, was a very forward-thinking interested in integrative medicine and understood that even if we couldn't cure a disease, we could at least still help people. That's why I was asked to come in and present. It was my first medical presentation. My knees were knocking because I knew it would be easy to lose this opportunity. I knew it would be easy to step in the wrong direction, but I just kept my mouth closed. And when I was asked a question, I didn't try to pontificate; I answered the question briefly because I know doctors are very busy. I always tried to answer the question in a way that would make sense to them without compromising the reality of what I was offering. I've always spoken of Reiki as a spiritual practice because, by then, I was a Reiki master. So everything else came out of that. 

In fact, there were a lot of people in conventional medicine who were very interested in what else could be done. At first, it surprised me, but then when I thought about it, well, yeah, these people see so much suffering that they can't help, even now that they can do more in terms of the fixing part. It's almost as if suffering itself is not a medical issue. Again, like safety, it's a spiritual issue. Doctors may help you with your pain, but suffering is a spiritual concern. 

DIR: I love how you put it because you also give Reiki a role that feels very safe and useful in the healthcare environment. Sometimes we communicate Reiki in a way that could feel dangerous to doctors. 
PM: Yeah. I mean, that's such an important point that you're bringing up, Nathalie. That is the communication piece. I've been a writer since I was a kid. So, I've always been thinking about communicating not just what do I want to say, but how can I say it? Not just writing as self-expression, but writing to communicate. And that made a big difference in being able to bridge cultures. And when it came to medical Reiki, the practice itself is the same that I practice everywhere, but the culture is different. I was bridging spiritual practice culture with medical science culture and also bridging lay culture with licensed professional culture. There were lots of places where we could have made a wrong turn, you know? And I was on a pretty steep learning curve. I just kept my mouth shut, and I listened. And then I had my partner there, the staff person at the end of the day, he would always make time for me, and I'd go in, and I'd say, "What does this mean? What is that?" I find it makes a big difference if there's somebody in the hospital or the institution who has at least some experience of Reiki practice because they appreciate the value. 

DIR: You have mentioned some essential things: first of all, to experience the practice. Second, listening, understanding them, and then communicating clearly in your case. Those are great tips for people to follow. 
PM: There's a difference between self-expression and communication. If we want to communicate better, we have to be better listeners. I find this true in my personal relationships, with my one-on-one clients for comprehensive healing sessions, and with students. They'll tell you what they want to know if you listen. I always keep in mind those wonderful words from Steve jobs: it's not the customer's job to know what they want. I can't wait for them to use my language or my concepts. I have to hear their language and recognize what they're saying behind what they're saying. 

So, if they ask what Reiki is, mostly they don't give a damn about what Reiki is. Most people just aren't that conceptually curious; what they're asking is, "Can this help me?" Or "Can this help somebody I love?" They've got some suffering that they're not able to address. And if we, as the Reiki practitioners and especially Reiki professionals, can be quiet enough and safe enough, they'll spill the beans. They'll tell us what they want to know. Then we can say to them what they've been asking us, even though they weren't using the words we would have used. 

DIR: It's all about listening and holding the space, and it's not trying to go, fix it or impose what we think is needed. You have achieved a lot of bringing Reiki into mainstream healthcare. However, right now, we are facing a lot of regulatory challenges. You are part of the group actively fighting these regulations. Can you explain what's going on?
PM: It's a very complex situation. Something that I feel very strongly about is that spiritual practices should not be legislated. It doesn't make sense. Is the government going to require a license to meditate or to pray? Reiki is a spiritual practice. If you even think about the logistics, how would they do that? I mean, that's a whole other thing. But the fact is that there are states that are looking to regulate, and it's never just Reiki practice. In Massachusetts, which is the current battleground, it seems to be all subtle practices, all noninvasive practices that have been recognized as being safe. 

Noninvasive means safe. And that's why there's no licensing for them. Because licensing, ostensibly, is to protect the public. You don't want a surgeon who hasn't gone through medical school with a specialty at the end, right? Because if a surgeon makes a mistake, there are horrible consequences. But as Reiki professionals, certainly, we can hurt people, but it's through our mishandling of another human being. It's not through the practice itself. And that's human nature, and that's not something that can be really controlled through regulation. 

The Massachusetts legislature has bills introduced, which, if passed, would mean immediately that professionals [from all these practices] would become illegal because they would [require] licensing. There's not even a six-month transition period. If it's passed, you know, as it's written. That's the acute crisis, and we need to address that. There's a petition, and I hope everybody will sign that petition and share it. Nag your friends to sign it as well and share it!

But then bigger than that is how can we keep our practice available [and] accessible to the public? We all have different Reiki practices. I think we all want the way we practice to be available to our grandchildren and our great-grandchildren. If the government—and it would be at the state level because the states regulate healthcare practices—takes control of licensing these practices, that means that there will be a small board. And somebody on that board, who probably is a friend of somebody in the legislature, knows something about Reiki practice. That person would be responsible for deciding what the licensing would involve, what we're allowed to teach, what's our curriculum, how we are supposed to practice. Does it have to be off the body? Does it have to be on the body? Do we have the freedom to choose according to what we think is best and best for our clients? 

The solution that I am working to further is, first of all, Reiki practitioners [need] to get savvier about communicating. Because, as you mentioned so astutely before, the way a lot of Reiki practitioners speak about Reiki is very unguarded. For people who aren't of that mindset, it sounds scary. It sounds imbalanced. It sounds like something is taking them over. It's confusing at best. So, for Reiki practitioners to be more savvy in their communication, because a lot of the problems that we're experiencing date back to the way that we've communicated, you know, just kind of reckless and thoughtless. And then reaching out to our state elected officials: calling their offices, making an appointment, [although] you probably won't get to speak to the actual official. Does it matter? You can speak to their gatekeeper. This is their job. And to be able to speak very succinctly, you know, "My Reiki practice is important to me." "I don't know how I could have gotten through my cancer treatment without my Reiki practice. The doctors certainly addressed cancer, but that's what helped me heal in a very profound way." End of story.

People want to make it big. No! Big makes doctors and legislators who are conservative [nervous.] No matter whether they're Republican or Democrat, they're conservative by nature, right? So, when people speak big, in an exaggerated way, it makes them nervous. It discredits us. We want to be very sober and simple. Your little Reiki story. How it helped you get your child to sleep at night. That's huge. But they need to hear from a lot of us, and they need to hear about Reiki practice in a way that's not scary and off-putting. Not going in there and saying, "Well, let me give you some Reiki." No, no, no! Please, don't do that!

The only reason we ever talk about Reiki practice in a situation like that is to shorten the distance between where that person is now and when they're going to have their first Reiki experience. Because once they have an experience, the conversation changes. But let's be realistic, our elected officials will probably not have a Reiki experience. We need to get their attention first of all and then equip them with some simple language and stories so that they see, "Oh yeah, this is important to the people who have voted for me and will vote for me again." 

DIR: And it's also safe. I think those stories you mentioned actually feed the clear distinction between alleviating pain and suffering, the latter of which should not be regulated. 
PM: Yes. There is another option; it's called Safe Harbor law. And it's something that has been conceptualized and actually passed in Minnesota. I think it was in 2005. That means we can practice these noninvasive practices as we see fit within reasonable parameters. Not interfering with any existing licensing but specifying noninvasive practices as not needing to be regulated. There's a woman, Diane Miller, and she has a new book called Health Freedom: The Greatest Freedom of All. And she has an organization helping people in different states to do this. 

DIR: I really appreciate you giving us the tools to help fight for our freedom to practice. I will post the links so people can reach out to their representatives. 
PM: Yeah. And you want to know before you make the phone call. You never know; you could get right through to somebody. It could be a slow afternoon. So, you want to know what you're going to say and rehearse it with friends. Reiki practitioners who know each other can get together and coach each other. It will help make us better Reiki practitioners because we'll be better able to represent what we do to people who aren't like us in some ways but are like us in other ways. [People] who—as his holiness says—want to be happy and want to avoid suffering. It's very simple the human condition.

DIR:  And that is the essence of the Reiki precepts at the end. Sometimes we get very lost when it comes to explaining Reiki practice. But, in the end, it's letting go of anger and worry, becoming more grateful, and finding that space of compassion. It's that simple. So simple that it's very complicated to get there. 
PM: You know, it's true. I tell my first-degree students that the hardest part about learning to practice Reiki is how simple and easy it is. Because all your life you've worked hard to get anything. Believed you should have worked harder for the thing that got away. In Reiki practice, the skill and the effort are really of self-restraint. Just place my hands [places hands on her body]. Now I'm practicing Reiki, and [lift her hands from her body] now I'm not. Hands-on, I'm practicing Reiki. Hands-off, I'm not. If it's that simple in the foundation, you won't get lost in your practice.

DIR:  Then you can actually extend that to your life. Like you lost the subway, you just lost the subway. Don't add, and don't complicate it. Yet Reiki is deceptively simple because you can actually go very deep, just by placing your hands repeatedly day after day. 
PM: I think the only way we can go deep is through repetition. Sometimes clients will come, and they'll say, "I'm with this old issue again." They're so disappointed in themselves that they haven't solved something. I try to help them appreciate it and be grateful that's it's an old issue because if you kept having new issues, you'd be overwhelmed. We have these old habits, and we keep revisiting them with new understanding and greater compassion. Things melt a little bit, and then we're doing better. Then something happens that takes us by surprise or frightens us, and we fall back into these very old habits a little bit. We usually don't fall so deeply. But what if we fell into new bad habits? How would we ever get ourselves out from under the suffering? If we always had to find a new plan, right? 

DIR: Oh, wow! I never looked at it that way. 
PM: It's so human. I mean, people are putting themselves down because they still have these old issues instead of like, "Thank God I still have this." For me, the simplicity of the protocol that I use for my practice, which is just an eight-placement protocol, creates a container for each practice that I can just drop into. I can practice with absorption and abandon. Not focusing, not concentrating, that's working too hard. I placed my hands, and something in me says, "Okay, now we're going home."

DIR: Yeah. I know many people go with intuition, and I'm like, "Learn your protocol because then you can always fall back on it and practice free of anger and worry. 
PM: People who say they practice intuitively, in my experience, there's nothing intuitive about it. They're thinking. They're engaged in a lot of stuff. They feel something and think they have to move their hands there. Just because you feel something doesn't mean it needs any more attention. Wherever we place our hands, it's not just that part of the body that responds. The initial response on a physical level certainly seems to be through some combination of the nervous system, the endocrine system, and likely the endocannabinoid system. These are the three most subtle systems in the body, and they're always playing with each other. So once that is set in motion, that's everywhere in your body. Where is your nervous system not? I place my hands on my chest; it's not just the nerves under my hand that are responding. It's my whole nervous system. This downregulation from the stress response, the sympathetic response to the parasympathetic digest, and heal response, and that involves everything. 

So you're going to feel things throughout your body as your body downregulates itself. We don't have to make that happen. We give our systems the invitation or the necessary information and then let it respond in the way that is meaningful, appropriate, and doable at that moment. And that's something we can't possibly know or even intuit, but our bodies know. We know how to heal. So, I think a big piece of Reiki practice, and certainly Reiki self-practice, is getting our minds out of the way. What we think we know. Being a little humbler with what we think we know.

DIR: Thank you, Pamela, so much for this interview. I learned a lot, and I'm sure everybody reading this will do, too. 

Drawing inspired by the interview with Pamela Miles.

DIVE INTO REIKI: Today I have a lovely guest: Yolanda Williams. Based in California, Yolanda is an Intuitive, Self-Mastery Coach and Certified Medical Reiki Master (CMRM); teaching Reiki, Intuitive Development, Elemental Balancing, and Chakra Mirroring. She trained with internationally recognized Reiki masters in the lineages of Usui Reiki Ryoho and Jikiden Reiki. Yolanda also trained with shamans and other healers of various modalities, increasing her intuitive abilities and understanding of Universal Oneness.
She is the host of the top-rated Reiki Radio podcast, founder of The Alchemy Circle, and creator of The Seekers Circle, which has become an international community of energy workers.
She is currently authoring an oracle deck to highlight how you can deepen your understanding of what it means to be an authentic expression of your true nature. I am super excited about that! So, without further ado, let's welcome Yolanda.
YOLANDA WILLIAMS: Thank you so much, Nathalie. I'm so excited to be here.

DIR: I like to start all of these interviews with the same question: How did you come in contact with the Reiki system? When was the first time this practice appeared in your life?
YW: The first time it appeared in my life, interestingly, I had gone through a layoff. Well, I had the option of keeping my job and relocating to another state, which I didn't want to do. And so, I took my package and spent some time finding myself. I had a whole "Eat, Pray, Love" experience. I went to Europe by myself and was just trying to figure out what I wanted to do next in life. And I knew that I didn't want to go back into finance. And so, I got to this space where I was having anxiety. I was freaking out. I was like, "I don't know what I want to do with my life, and I have bills to pay." And I literally found myself one day like I was imploding because I was just so afraid of not knowing what to do. I was crying in the fetal position on my bedroom floor, which was very unlike me. And I was just saying like, "Please like, God, just give me any direction. Give me a sign. Just tell me what to do. Just help me." This really eerie calm came over me, I stopped crying, and the first thought in my head was to call this woman who had done my astrology chart maybe ten years prior. And when I went to her initially, she was so accurate that it scared me, which is why I never called her in that ten-year window. I was like, "How does this lady know these things about me and my life?" But anyway, since she was the first person or thought that came to mind, I booked a session with her to have my chart done again.
When I went, she told me several things about what was going on in my life. But most interestingly, she said, "Have you ever heard of Reiki? You should definitely go get a Reiki session and learn how to meditate. Because both of those are going to help you with the stress that you're experiencing. And then you can have clarity and decide how you want to move forward." So, I looked up Reiki because Google is my friend. I was like, "This is really interesting!" It just sounded so strange that I thought I didn't really want to have a session as much as I wanted to learn, like what is this. I signed up for a [Reiki 1] class. I signed up for meditation class simultaneously, and then that was it. The door was open, and I started this deep dive into exploring myself.

Yolanda Williams.

DIR: When we talked on another occasion about self-exploration, you highlighted that healing is not that pleasant process we all imagine. Can you elaborate on that?
YW: Yes. I think partially I was kind of lucky at the beginning that I was blind to the whole idea of spirituality. I hadn't read any of the books, or I wasn't familiar with the practices of the teachers. I genuinely went in this blindly. When I started meditation and Reiki, I practiced both diligently because I was so curious. There was this part of me that was very excited at the beginning: "Whoa, I'm experiencing myself differently. I'm starting to perceive different things, you know, just life in a different way." So, I went all the way in, being very, very diligent and just practicing. 
Then I started researching and finding other teachings and spiritual communities. It sounded like the most amazing thing, like you [were] going to be so spiritual and like rainbows and butterflies and feel so great. I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. And again, initially, that's what I was experiencing. I was just fascinated by what I was starting to feel and sense and starting to question what we are in a different way? But then what happened was that I started to really see myself in ways that I guess I repressed or just things I had put on the back burner. Different emotions started coming up. I started having different reflections about my life experience and how things affected me, and what I was behaving from today based on the past. It was just like, "Wait, what is happening? This isn't sunshine and rainbows." It was really hard, like standing in front of a gigantic mirror that I wasn't expecting to appear. But fortunately, for whatever reason, there was a part of me that knew this was part of my healing.
It was like I instinctively knew: don't run away from this. Don't shut down. The stuff is coming up for a reason. So, keep examining what's going on. And then, how does this feel in your body? How does this feel with your energy, and where is the balancing coming in when you sit for practice? And I just want to highlight that it wasn't like a short process, like one week. This was years of stuff coming up, and the truth is it still does. 
I think as a lot of the resistance starts to dissipate, and you start to really see the beauty and the gift of seeing yourself, it's not so hard. It can be uncomfortable, but there's a lot of gratitude around what's coming up. And the understanding that comes from that. But definitely, there were a few years where I felt like, "Is the universe punching me in the face? Like what is happening? I'm doing all the things. I'm practicing Reiki. I'm meditating. Where's the sunshine and rainbows?" Eventually, I came to appreciate [the process]; I understood that it was part of my healing.

DIR: I love a couple of things you mentioned: first of all, being open to experiencing it, whatever length of time it takes. But also the need for balance. Because I think, sometimes we go into the shadow work, and that takes over the light. We need to accept our darkness but temper it with gratitude and compassion, right?
YW: Yeah, that was the thing. The different tools that I had learned through Reiki and meditation really got me through those processes. Because then I started to recognize, "Okay, how do I feel embodied? Oh yeah. I can sit in, use my breath to just calm and come back into a space of clarity. I can look at the Reiki Gokai (precepts) and really examine like, wait, I really am angry right now. I really am worried right now. Why? What's coming up around this, and what are the perspectives that I'm holding? Can I see the beauty in this discomfort and what's happening? So, definitely, the practices and the techniques that are infused in Reiki got me through it. It gave me even more of a reverence for the practice itself. Man, if I would have learned this as a teenager! But you know, it comes when it comes.

DIR: We all have that feeling! I fantasize about teaching how to work with the Reiki precepts to every pre-teen in the world, so they can face puberty and life with some tools. 
What I love about you is that you're relentless in your search for tools and knowledge, but you don't get attached to the tools themselves. You have explored many modalities but have not lost your North. I know that you studied Akashic Records Reading. A lot of people ask me about them and how they can be used with Reiki. Can you tell us your perspective on combining or studying different modalities?  
YW: I always include meditation [in my practice] because I love it so much. And although Reiki is very meditative, I had to learn meditation as a separate thing to really go deeper into it. Because it wasn't a big part of the first classes that I took. I was starting to experience myself differently, and I started to feel sensations differently —whether in meditation or sometimes in Reiki sessions. I would see or feel like colors and things. And I was like, "What is this?" It was very distracting to me because I wasn't being present. I was more curious of, like, what is all this stuff? I realized just to satisfy my mind; I wanted to understand why I was having these experiences.
I took an intuitive development class and studied to have more understanding about how we translate and perceive energy or how we even translate and perceive the unseen. I went through a period of, okay, I am seeing and sensing these different things intuitively, but it was never for me about predictive work. Do you know what I mean? It was more this exploration of my design, like how can I even see or feel these things that aren't tangible, that aren't here in the material realm? I was more fascinated about what we have the ability to perceive. I went deep into that study. I also recognized that once I understood my intuitive nature more, it dissipated some fear around what I may feel or sense because a lot of people do get this heightened sensitivity after practicing anything—I mean, it could just be meditation, Reiki, whatever. 
From there, it was like just going down a rabbit hole. I was literally like Alice in Wonderland, like, "Oh, there's more, give me more, what else is out there?" I met this amazing woman who was an Akashic Records teacher, and I studied with her. It was just another layer of learning, how we access different states of consciousness. I'm a very curious person. I was also curious about why people would want to access a different state of consciousness. But I didn't attach to it the way that people use all these different practices, even Reiki for that matter. All of this work was about discovering more about myself. It was like, "Oh, this is so cool." Being a human is actually kind of fascinating. It was changing me because I was having a deeper appreciation for life and for being and existing. That's what encouraged me to want to share it with other people.
Even when I share with other people—people that I teach or just people I converse with—I'm always very clear: you're not meant to mimic me. Here are the tools that have helped me. See how it opens you up to you. Notice what you start to recognize about yourself. And then, of course, what that may reveal to you about this true nature that we talk about and these aspects of us that are really beneath the surface, beyond "I am Nathalie." Beyond "I was born in a female body." There is just so more underneath that is that unifying quality in all of us. And I think these practices have helped me see that in a broader way. 

DIR:  I love the way you put it: it's is about self-exploration. It's not about getting answers like, should I go to the supermarket now or later? I think you made it very clear and very loving for everyone to understand. I really appreciate that answer. You also mentioned something I always struggled to put into words when we had a conversation, and you did it beautifully. I feel that, as practitioners, we often struggle with the issue of messages. When we work with others, we shouldn't confuse observation and awareness with acting as an antenna, always grasping to get messages. Can you elaborate a little bit more on that?
YW: Yeah. When that initially was happening for me, I did have that pressure on myself because, again, I wasn't even very clear at the beginning of what Reiki was. And so it was this self-imposed pressure of, "Okay, I'm seeing in sensing thing. Am I supposed to tell them? What does this mean? Am I going to translate correctly?" All of this blah, blah, blah, right? I absolutely went through that phase and that stage. But then I got to a place of like, "Hello, come back to observation, let go, be the empty vessel. But there was a lot in my own process that I had to work through. [Letting go] layers of my own ego, of wanting to be right, to do it right. To do a good job. Honestly, I think there is nothing wrong with it. I think there's beauty in that so many people decide to do this type of work and hold space for others. We just genuinely want to do a good job. Like we want to help you. We want to support you. But then again, we attach to these expectations that take us out of the practice itself. I think for a lot of practitioners, it's just part of the process of the undoing and the learning and the bumping against ourselves to see what we're even attached to and the pressures we're putting on ourselves. So, I went through that cycle, and I appreciate it because now I can relate when I meet other practitioners who may have a similar experience. I'm like, "Yeah, it was there. Howsoever you can let that go, let it fall away. You can observe. And it absolutely means nothing. You can just hold space, and that's all it is." 
But I think the greater gift and a lot of the things that I practice outside of just Reiki, and I have to say Reiki is in there as well, was that it all kind of helped me learn more to trust. To let go. To not be so attached. To pay more attention to my own self-observation: what I feel, what I sense, how I feel guided, without making everything something. 

DIR: I think it's so helpful to know this when you are a beginner. Many of us practice for a couple of years, get confused or stuck, and drop the practice. It is advantageous to hear the experience of people who have been practicing for 15 years, 20 years, to understand that, "Oh, this is a stage. I just need to keep a beginner's mind and remember that my practice will keep changing. That's what excites me about Reiki. The more I practice, the more it changes, so I never get bored. You can never get Reiki "right" because the practice changes all the time. 
YW: Absolutely. And that's why a big focus for me is like, here are the tools. To me, they're foundational; they're keys. But the beauty is just don't leave them on the surface and don't get so rigid about being right. I have to practice, right? I have to [be in that space of] observation as I sit with myself and apply these. And not just when I'm sitting, not just in a session, but how do I apply this out in my everyday life? How does the Gokai show up in my exchanges with my friends and my family? Or how does using my breath really help me [in my exchanges] with the world around me? Right. So, it really is to me about how I am being and how these tools are helping me to evolve.
I think that's what keeps me excited and connected to my practice because I know I have no idea how I'm evolving and changing. I know it's this never-ending process. I don't know what the end result will be, but I'm very thankful that I'm changing. I'm very thankful for the ways that I see it has contributed to my life and how it's helping me soften. It helps with my layers of stress and how I handle things and all of that across the board. 
I also think that's why it's important for practitioners to know that if your experience doesn't mirror someone else's, it doesn't mean that you're wrong. You're just going through it your way. And what comes up for us individually is going to look different. How we choose to work through what comes up for us is going to be different. But it's the beauty in that we have these similar practices that help to get us there. 

DIR: That is amazing. We are often pressured to have the same experience as everybody else. If everybody loves a movie and you don't like it, it's weird. With your answer, you are giving the freedom for everyone to experience the practice differently. We will all unfold and evolve differently. And that is the way it should be: we all have different mindsets. I think that is a precious gift. 
You're supporting people to do this through your Patreon and your circle. Can you talk a bit about that? About the importance of supporting practitioners after certification? 
YW: Yeah. Interestingly it started with the podcast. I started the podcast in 2013. At the time, I was like, "Hello, is anybody talking about this stuff?" There wasn't a lot of information available outside of the little pod of the class you took or your immediate community. I was experiencing a lot in terms of stuff coming up and being uncomfortable and questioning, "Am I doing this right?" I realized there had to be other people that we're experiencing this too. [So I thought] if I can just share what I'm going through, and if anyone else is going through it, maybe it will encourage them to stay in the process. And then, we can start having conversations about this and help each other by sharing what we're experiencing and being honest about it. Not think you have to say you have to be peaceful and kind every day. If you're mad, say you're mad, but let's then look at these practices and see how they work? How do they help us work through these different emotions and things coming up?
I just wanted to talk about it and have a community forum, but I didn't even know if anyone would listen to the podcast. I was like, just throw it out there. It did take a while before I started hearing from people who found it and were listening. I really appreciated that. But then I started to realize even more that, for a lot of us, after our initial training, then what? And we go home and practice, but some people didn't even have access to their teachers afterward. When I'm practicing, that's when the stuff is really starting to happen. That's where I need to talk to someone. And this is where my questions are. Because when I'm in class, I don't know what to ask. I'm just learning. But when I start implementing, man, I have questions! 
Over the years, that evolved. I had an opportunity to then start doing some online classes, not Reiki. I don't teach Reiki online, but I started having online classes to support practitioners. I love the back-and-forth exchanges, so I decided to start the Patreon group. I invited practitioners to come in to practice together. But to also share. Let's talk about it. What's coming up for you? What is your experience?
I really believe we learn from each other, but it also gives people this space where they feel comfortable. They feel seen and heard because a lot of people that practice, whatever they practice, they may not have people in their immediate life that understand, that they can talk to about these things. A lot of people are closeted about their practices because they don't want to seem weird or be judged. And so it's like, "Yeah, you have this community, this space. Let's play, let's practice and talk about it." And it developed into a lot of mentoring. But again, it's one of those things that I'm like, I don't know how long I'll be doing this. I don't know what it will evolve into, but I'm doing that for now.

DIR: What you said about being closeted, I think it happens to a lot of us. When I talk about Reiki with my family, they confuse me either for a Hare Krishna or a witch. There is a lot of distrust. So for me, finding a community was significant as well. 
It also happens that when you discover Reiki, you don't want to work anymore and just want to do Reiki. Because it's so beautiful. And then part of the process is to face the fact that we can't all be practitioners. But that doesn't mean we drop the practice. It means your life becomes your practice? My freelance work, my family relationships… they all become practice. Finding the community really supports you in your self-exploration journey.
Talking about exploration, you are working on a project that has me pretty excited: an Oracle deck. Can you tell us about it?

YW: I wanted to create an Oracle deck for a very long time. Back when I was doing my Alice in Wonderland thing, I came across Oracle cards. I was like, "Oh, what are these about? I learned how to read Oracle cards from a woman who had created her own deck. She was a phenomenal teacher. But again, I used the cards every day to go like, "What is coming up in my energy? What may I not be looking at in a particular way?" Just wanting a different perspective on myself. Like, "What is it I'm holding around this situation, and what might support me to understand differently?" So, I worked with cards in that way, and then over the years, I started helping people learn how to read cards.
Then at some point, I became interested in the Tarot. Anyone familiar with Tarot [knows] it's broken up into major Arcana and Minor Arcana. For a very long time was only interested in the Major Arcana, known as the Fool's Journey. As I connected with the cards, I realized, "Oh my God, this is showing the process that we go through." Our own process of coming into a deeper relationship with ourselves and what starts to come up for us. It mirrored a lot of what I experienced through the years of this work. I was fascinated that this story was being told from another lens. And I have to say, Nathalie, that's one of the things why I also liked to study and read about so many different practices and philosophies. Underneath it all, they all seem to point back to the very same thing, which is you, and how you are going through this practice of awakening to yourself and revealing more of that true nature.
I was fascinated with Major Arcana. I got to the minors later. I now have more decks than I will admit on your show, but I realized I wanted just one go-to deck very specific for people interested in self-work. Practitioners or people interested in self-exploration could use this one deck and the different elements that hold that mirror for us. Like, "What is it that I am holding? What is it that I'm not seeing? What is it that is helping me in this challenging situation?" So, I designed the deck itself. I worked with an artist. I had to translate to her the images in my mind. Part of the deck is inspired by the Major Arcana, but then the rest is it's just different stuff going on. It's a deck to support people in their self-work. Because Oracle cards and Tarot were two tools that helped me go deeper into looking at this life experience and how I'm navigating it, I was like, "Yeah, I definitely want to create something that is very intentionally to be used for people who want to do the same."

DIR: Throughout this interview, one thing that keeps coming up is that all these practices are just tools to mirror and discover your true self. Yes, it's great that it fixes back pain, for example, in the case of Reiki, or that it gives you some emotional release. Still, in the end, it's really about self-exploration. Once you see everything through that filter, there is no right or wrong way of doing it. 
However, when you become familiar with so many tools, how do you establish a consistent daily practice? Which ones do you choose?

YW: Yeah. I just want to highlight something that you just said because I think a lot of us—when we are seeking and trying to understand—we "right and wrong" ourselves a lot. There's beauty in people that like you just stick to the purity of whatever particular practices. I like to think that people who practice this way are lineage holders in a way. I think that's very important because that's where the traditions get passed down. We can continue to learn like that information. Those teachings, those foundations are never lost because certain people just want to stick very tightly to the tradition. There's so much beauty in that because if that weren't the case, we wouldn't be sitting here right now talking about Reiki. However, there are some people, [and it's] not right or wrong, that does feel like, "I want all the things." 
I hope people can understand and appreciate whatever they feel called to. Like there is no right or wrong in this. But no matter what class I was taking, no matter what I was learning, I always had just a foundational daily meditation period across the board. And I've made it a point to be very rigid with myself, honestly, about making sure I start my day with medication. If I'm lucky, I get to do it a few times throughout the day. But meditation really is my love. That is genuinely what I'm in love with. So that has always been the foundation of no matter what exploration I do. 
Then say, for example, I studied Akashic records and Oracles and this and that. I give my attention to these practices because I genuinely want to understand them, but the thing is, I don't attach to them. I don't feel like I have to implement everything. How could I possibly practice every single thing every day? 
So, for me, the focus really is what am I getting from this thing that I just learned? It always comes back to how this practice is in service to my goal of understanding myself. How is this practice in service of helping me to see or understand myself in a higher way? And then I take that in, take it in, I take it in. I don't feel like I have to do all the things as much as I appreciate the different perspectives that all of these things have given me. 
But then there's also this thing that comes [with training], say Akashic records, for example. In the class that I took, it was suggested that you practice it every single day for 30 days right after class. And so, I did that because it was part of the practice. What I realized is I was enjoying that. Then that became part of what I did every single day for months. I went into my Akashic records. What started happening again is that instead of just being a surface thing that I was doing, I started to recognize, "How is this changing the way that I see things? The way that I feel the flow of energy? And on and on and on."
It's more like it awakened something in me, but it wasn't that I have to attach and say now I have to keep doing this every day. And I don't do it at all. But because of the connection to the practice itself, you start to embody [its] essence. How do [you] allow this experience, this expression to live through [you]. In a lot of ways, the grip you have on [these tools] starts to fall away. And it's more about how [are they] adding to this expression and what I am starting to understand more about myself. 
So, if you are someone who likes to study many things, maybe don't do 10 classes at once. [If you] want to study this one thing, give your time and attention to that thing, practice it, implement it. Otherwise, what are you studying for? What's the point? 
Don't give yourself this pressure of right and wrong as much as, "How do you feel guided in this practice?" Some people I know study many things and continue to practice all those things, but that's what works for them. And it's a beautiful thing. It's just that that wasn't my personal guidance. I'm just more of a "how can you help crack me open type of girl," and then let's see what happens. 

DIR: That is excellent guidance. We don't need to practice all of them every day. We just need to go deep to get that gift meant for us. And then we can choose what we keep. These practices look very different on the outside, but they all point towards the same thing at the end. I think we learn from everything, not just from spiritual practices like Akashic records or Oracle, but also from working a day job or walking on the street.
YW: Yes. And I think that's the beauty of this community as well—[although] a lot of people have a lot of judgment around it. It's beautiful that you have so many different people practicing and people called to so many different things. You have this variation of tools and elements available to anyone and what you feel called to. For example, I know a lot of people who work with Reiki and crystals. I have a lot of crystals, and I love crystals, but they're not necessarily part of my sessions. But there are people who feel drawn to that. It fascinates me the way this work expresses through everyone uniquely, you know what I mean? Or some practitioners may like to incorporate a reading or do Akashic records. Then they'll implement energy work as part of the process. People have to allow things to express through them the way that they feel called. That's amazing to me. And I like variety. I know that everything is not for everyone, and we're all going to be drawn in and inspired by even different things. That has been why I appreciate learning different things, reading about different things. I love to interview people because I want to hear, "What is your practice, and what has it done for you?" When I interview people in their different practices, it's not because I practice or what I'm interested in. But I understand that there are other people listening that may be held to that. So, let's have a conversation and see what's inspiring all of us. 

DIR: It's beautiful because we're billions of people, and everybody will have a journey, right? There is no one way; there are 7 billion ways.
YW: Yes, exactly.

DIR: Your answers have been very enlightening. I love how articulate, precise, and kind they are. Changing gears a bit, however, I would like to ask you about a Reiki "oops" that gave you valuable insight into Reiki practice. 
YW: I can think of two off the top of my head. One, the biggest Reiki "oops" for me at the very beginning was trying so hard. I mean, I was trying hard. I was attached to the outcome, and this was more so in practicing with other people. And you know, that whole thing that a lot of practitioners go through, like, "Is this working? Is it right?" I was so focused [on that,] not trusting, allowing, and, you know, being an empty vessel. I was putting a lot of pressure on myself, and it was so distracting. And then there was this one day. I'll never forget. One of my friends wanted me to do a session. And I literally had the thought—because I was so frustrated with not knowing how it was working—"I don't even care." I literally went into the session with this feeling of "I couldn't care less," let me just lay my hands on them. I was so detached. It was the most amazing experience. It was just this flood of energy. And I just had this realization in the moment of "you got out of the way, you stopped trying." And that's the whole thing: stop trying, just sit, breathe. That was a huge lesson about just being an observer, just staying with my own breath. My focus in that particular session was more so on me. The cultivation of the life force that I was experiencing in my own being allowed me to be free in the flow of life force I was feeling, letting go of my attachments, surrendering. To let go of the yip yap [in my head] about rightness. To let go of the anger and frustration. That was huge for me. So while I do care when I show up for a session, I'm not attached to the outcome. 
Another thing is, I have encountered over the years not just working with different practitioners but in conversation with a lot of practitioners that a lot of people just want to get it quick. I don't know if they want to awaken quick or want a quick result. I'm not sure what the desire is, but they want something to happen quickly. Right. So many people will do things where they'll do, like Reiki 1, 2, and 3 within a day. And then, on the other side, they feel like drunk. It's almost like an energetic overload that happens when people ingest, ingest, ingest because "I want to do this fast."
That was also a big lesson: an observation of integration. Like, be easy. There's no rush; take it in. It's not just a surface-y thing. The truth of the matter is when you start connecting with yourself and when you start implementing these practices, it can't not change you. The energy that moves can't not have some type of impact on you. Instead of trying to overstimulate yourself or your system, [be] kind. It reminds me of enjoying the meal: you don't have to eat so fast, just enjoy the meal. You'll notice the flavors, the textures, you know what I mean? It's different than wolfing it all down, and then you're full. And you're like, "Oh, I feel sick. I don't know what happened." I think our practice in a lot of ways can be that way, but I have learned the beauty of being patient. Not just in what we ingest, but being patient with ourselves and recognizing how the work is helping us to evolve, shift, change, balance, bring stuff up, and work through the layers. Just take a breath and take your time.

DIR: I love those two words: patience and integration. It reminds me of a story recounted by Sharon Salzberg of when she went to study meditation in India. She was practicing Metta meditation for a month or so, focusing on herself. She was feeling that it wasn't really changing her life and was a bit frustrated. Then one day, she let something drop. And she heard her inner voice say, "You are a klutz, but I love you." It is such a human, beautiful perspective. It changed me because I had always wanted Reiki to solve everything in my life. Self-acceptance was not even on the map.
We expect the changes to be big and fast, but they actually show up in the small things. When we break a glass, and we don't spiral out into self-hatred. Or you call someone by the wrong name, apologize and let it go versus fretting for hours. These are the indications your practice is working. Practicing kindness towards ourselves and others. 
YW: With you saying that, Nathalie, it reminds me of [Frans Stiene, a teacher we both have in common.] One of the things I really appreciated about having him as a teacher is that he has such lightheartedness. There's such a playfulness to him in his classes. I think when we come into this, a lot of people think we have to be so serious. Like, this is serious. And while it's serious business doing your healing, playfulness can be a part of it and actually is quite helpful in the process of not being attached, being more forgiving, and being more compassionate. The laughter has to be present. 

DIR: Then the practice becomes so dry, right? And the reality is so opposite. Like right now, there are garbage trucks under my window, a concert, people screaming. Or posed like on Instagram, where everyone meditates looking into the horizon with perfect wavy hair flying in the wind. It's not perfect, yet it is. 
YW: Yeah! I think sometimes one of the maybe basic questions that we can ask ourselves along the way is, "How am I experiencing this?" Like on the other side, not while you're meditating itself. Just taking a breath and noticing like, "Am I using this essence of calmness and stillness? Am I able to apply this when something triggers me out in my life? When I recite and chant the Gokai, am I really feeling into those words? Do I really allow them to be like little mantras and remind me of my perspective as I'm interacting in the day?" 
I mean, again, it comes down to patience, slowing down, observing how the practices are actually impacting your life. It's not just information to take in to be able to regurgitate, to know all the spiritual jargon. No. [Observe,] how is this actually? Why did you study this in the first place? That's like one of the things I ask: why do you want this in the first place? And then how are you allowing this to support you in experiencing that?

DIR: I taught a woman recently, and she told me she could not feel the energy but felt the practice was working because she didn't scream at her kids so much. She was doing things she had not dared to do before. I loved this. 
But back to your Oracle Deck, do you have a timing for the launch? I'm already hitting that pre-buy button! 
YW:  Thankfully, I have a friend who is a graphic artist, and she has helped me a lot. So everything will be submitted for printing in September. And then it's supposed to just be a few months after that. So hopefully [it will be ready] in the fall, but definitely by the end of this year.

DIR: Awesome. That's going to be my Christmas present! Thank you so much for being on the podcast and sharing your beautiful wisdom. 
YW: Thank you so much. 

Yolanda’s drawing.

Oliver Drewes is a Reiki master practitioner based in Germany. He came across the practice in 2010, completed the first and second level of Western-style Reiki training in 2011. In 2015-2016, Oliver learned the first three levels of training of the Gendai Reiki Hō school. In autumn 2016, he completed the master and teacher training directly with the founder of the Gendai-Reiki method, Hiroshi Doi Sensei, in Japan, after repeating the previous levels of training.

Oliver is also the founder of Holistika, a book imprint that has published the work of Doi Sensei (for German-speaking countries), Frank Glatzer, and Frans Stiene's translation of The Inner Heart of Reiki (he was also the actual translator).

In addition to teaching the Reiki system, Oliver has given lectures at the ProReiki Regional Group Cologne, the professional association ProReiki, and the Reiki Convention.

DIVE INTO REIKI: Hi, Oliver. Thank you so much for accepting my invitation. I like to start every interview with the same question: how did you come in contact with Reiki practice? 
OLIVER DREWES: My Reiki way began when I was very young. Sev brought me to Reiki [the first one was the] funeral of my great grandfather. At this time, I had a very special experience. I thought that I had seen him. So we all had been at the cemetery. It was on [a] hill. The sun was very strong, and suddenly I had the impression that I had seen him and that he had seen me. And at that moment, I lost consciousness, and my father saved me from falling. And all the years after, I had the impression that I had seen him. I never said I had seen him. I didn't want to be a liar. I was never sure whether I really saw him or not. This occupied my mind for more than 25 years.
In 2006, my parents gave me a phone call that there was a lady on the television. She brought people back to former lives as well as to experiences in their childhood. And they told me this could be a chance to review what I experienced. So I came in contact with this lady, and finally, she invited me to train. To my surprise, I got it as a gift from her… it was the training to become a practitioner in regression therapy. It was a nice experience. I could bring people back to their former lives, but I had not been able to do this myself. I was not able to give up control. I needed to be more relaxed. 
I decided to go to a healing practitioner school in Germany to learn more about relaxation methods. There was an advertisement for Reiki. I was very interested—healing with hands sounded interesting. I went to the south of Germany because there was one seminar just one or two weeks later. When I'm interested in something, I'm not looking when it's [happening] nearby. I just want to do it right now. So, I went to the South of Germany [for] my first Reiki seminar. I'm still in contact with and friends with that teacher, but it was not the purest Reiki I could experience. It was a mixture of Reiki and healing with gemstones. I was more interested in the pure Reiki. I changed teachers, and then I found myself in a seminar, which was a mixture of Reiki and healing with angels. It was not the pure Reiki I was looking for either. I decided to continue my Reiki way when the right time came, and I would have found the right teacher. 
In 2013, I went to London to the Arthur Findlay College because I wanted to know more about mediumship and the vision I had of my great grandfather. We learned a special scanning method. I could see people's problems and pains. It was very extraordinary. I went to the tutor and said, "Oh, I have seen…." He said, "No, stop, Oliver. Just get used to it. You have not seen; you have been shown. That's a big difference, but anyway, it's a gift, and you should think about what to do with it." And then I said, "Well, if this is a gift, maybe it's the right time to continue my way with and dedicate myself to healing again." 
[Back] in Germany, I've been looking for a new teacher in stool and found one in Cologne, not far from where I live. Then everything started flowing. After that, I got the chance to go to Japan to learn from Hiroshi Doi [founder of Gendai Reiki.] I had the chance to translate his books. And later, I had the chance to be a speaker at different events and even got to know Frans Stiene personally. With him, I had the chance to organize trips to Japan. 
My mother later told me that she had an experience that her grandfather—that was my great-grandfather—saved our family from an accident. She saw him making signs not to do certain things. And Her telling me that made it easier for me to accept my experience than any regression therapy or other [modalities.] I didn't need anymore. It was clear to me that these things could happen. But, anyway, it brought me to Reiki and where I am today.

Oliver Drewes next to Mikao Usui’s memorial stone.

DIR: You studied with eight Reiki teachers. Do you advise people to study with different masters, and what did you gain from doing so?
OD: As I mentioned first, I was looking for pure Reiki. It was fantastic to combine healing with stones. I think if someone is doing this during a treatment, it's great. But if you tell students about this, it's like giving the association that Reiki power wouldn't be strong enough and requires healing stones. The same with angels. That was not my way. So there, I already needed to go to a different teacher. Learning Gendai Reiki [gave me] more of the Japanese perspective. The style that I'm teaching and that I learned from Hiroshi Doi is nice. It's a combination of the Western and the traditional Reiki. [It includes] working with chakras, a great tool, but it's not the [authentic] Japanese way. Chakras come from India.
I wanted to go even [deeper] into the roots [of the Reiki system]. I found Frans Stiene. I really appreciate his style and his teachings. He is learning from priests in Japan to see [the practice] from a different [perspective]. You don't need to be a Buddhist or know very much about esoteric Buddhism; you can have any religion [to practice Reiki]—that's clear. But [understanding Buddhism] gives a greater understanding. As we didn't [grow up with] Japanese culture, some things have to be explained to understand what was meant by [the teachings.] 
This is how I came to the first four teachers. Then I said, "Okay, let's have a look at other styles." I wanted to have a look at Jikiden Reiki. So I taught a friend of mine Gendai Reiki Ho, and I studied Jikiden from him. There are many similarities, but some things are quite different. And then, I had the chance to see the Reiki style of Chris Marsh [a renowned UK Reiki master who passed away at the beginning of 2021]. I took every opportunity to [study] different teachers and different styles. I think this is okay. Some teachers are very strict and say, "If you learn from me, it's only me and my style." And maybe even, "My style is better, and don't look at others." But I mean, if you're going to school, you have a teacher for English, you have a teacher for mathematics, and a teacher for biology. You get knowledge from different teachers. Why not in Reiki? I mean, Reiki has the same origin. Every teacher has their own way. 
Hiroshi Doi, for example, compares Reiki with climbing Mount Fuji. You can go until the middle, and you decide just to be in the healthy soul. But you can continue and take the spiritual path. And when you do that, you may reach the top, Natsumi Ritsumei—a state of inner happiness and inner calmness. Every guide has his group to bring them to the top of Mount Fuji. And everyone has their way. Maybe one way is straighter; maybe the other has more views; maybe one is more exhausting, one is more relaxed, but all guides have different routes to go to the top of the mountain. It is the same with Reiki teachers. All are guides to bring their students to the top, bring them to a point to reach Natsumi Ritsumei [following] the way [that worked for them.]. There is no wrong way—they're all alternative ways [that come from] the same origin.

DIR: I love this POV beyond the metaphor. Sometimes in the Reiki community, we remain separate because we practice different styles instead of coming together to learn from each other. We should encourage the exchange between practitioners. 
OD: Yeah. I had a couple of times every month a meeting with that friend. Both of our students would come, and we had a Reiki exchange. Someone said to me, "I'm not very happy with the Jikiden [style]. I don't want to deal with that." And I said, "Sorry, this is my friend. We do this in cooperation. We want to make something clear: it's not one style against the other. We are doing this together. We are one Reiki family."
You can see Mikao Usui as the founder and then compare it with a big tree. He is the root. And then the tree has many branches, many leaves. It's not one against the other or one better than the other. And if there is a possibility for cooperation, I think this will offer students and participants a better understanding. It allows us to see some things from a different point of view.

DIR: You also mentioned traveling to Japan. When I traveled to Japan, I understood Reiki to a whole new level. You organize trips to Japan to follow Mikao Usui's path. Can you tell us how you came up with that idea? 
OD: [After] my first Reiki seminar, the teacher offered to choose between different raw quartz stones. That was a tradition in his style. I chose one, and it happened to be formed like a pyramid with three sides. But on one side, there was a little [defect]. And I said, "Why did I take this one?" I'm a perfectionist. And it could be so perfect if this [minor defect] wouldn't have been there. And then there was like a big voice saying, "Oliver, this stone is for you always to remember to take things as they are, and not as you want them to [be.]." I was surprised, [I kept] looking around [trying to find] who was speaking. It was an experience. At that time, I had dreams. One of those dreams was that I saw myself in Japan, organizing trips for people from all over the world. But the interesting thing was that they learned Reiki and had a seminar with a Western teacher. 
When I woke up, I said, "Well, that's strange. If ever in the future, I would bring people to Japan to learn Reiki there, the country of origin, of course, I would look for a Japanese teacher. Why should I have a Westerner teaching Western people in Japan? That does not make sense! So, 15 years later, more or less, when I was there with Frans [Stiene, the co-founder of the International House of Reiki], I said, "Oh, stop! That's exactly what I was dreaming. It came true." I was not thinking of this [dream] all the time. It was not a [goal] for me, but when I found myself [in Japan] with the group, I said, "Oh, okay! I remember that dream. That's interesting."
[The idea for the trip] came [about] first after having been in the class of Hiroshi Doi in 2016. I wanted to organize trips to Japan, including a seminar with Doi. I wanted to translate from English into German for my group. But it happened that the schedule from November was changed to September because there was an unveiling ceremony of a special Memorial stone that Hiroshi Doi had put in the birth town of Mikao Usui, and all the plans changed. I couldn't go in November. The American group was going in September. Later, Hiroshi Doi said, "Oh, I don't know if I would do this the next year. I was born in 1935. I'm quite advanced in age. I'm not sure." I looked for alternatives. I [talked to] Frans, and we said, "Let's do this together." 
I had everything organized. I already had organized trips to India, Sri Lanka, and Bali for people interested in spirituality. I already had some experience. Many of [Frans'] students joined us in 2019. We had a wonderful group with people from New Zealand, Australia, the UK, Italy, and [many] from the US. It was an experience to be in the country of origin for them, to practice Reiki there. I think it's a really different energy, especially when you find yourself on Mount Karama or even Mount Hiei, which is the place of origin of Buddhism in Japan. You can feel it there on the mountain with every step you make, every breath you take. There is so much of that original energy. It makes a difference. 
The other aspect was that it was so nice that people from all over the world [formed] one group. We're part of the community, not only in our local town, in our country or continent, but everywhere. Friendships [were] started between the seminar takers and [with the] Japanese Reiki master that I presented in the meeting with Hiroshi Doi. It was so great for me as an organizer to see that. 
I think doing this as a kind of pilgrimage—to see where Mikao Usui went to school, where he lived, the history of this town, and how everything developed gives you a better understanding [of the Reiki system.] You [get] the picture. Later, [when you teach a] class, you can show the students, "Look, this is where [Miako Usui] went to school. This is where his grandfather and uncle had the sake manufacturing." You can teach from your own experience. I think this makes a difference. Normally as a teacher, depending on where you learn, you teach what you have learned. So, it's an indirect knowledge [based on] the experience someone else [had]. But if you're in Japan experiencing this yourself, meditating on Mount Kurama and feeling that energy, it's your direct experience that you're teaching.

DIR: Direct experience can mean going to Japan or doing the work where you live: practicing or reading books. However, I have to say, there is something exceptional about being in Japan. For me, it was understanding the power of the simplicity of the Reiki system versus complicating it. When you sit in meditation in Japan, you feel that it is perfect as conceived with your whole body, mind, and soul. 
You also had a great story from one of your trips to Japan about how, as practitioners, we think the grass is always greener in other countries, especially when it comes to Reiki in healthcare. 
OD: Yeah. People from my group from the US [met] a Japanese Reiki master that I presented, and they said, "Ah, it's so different here in Japan. Reiki is so well accepted, and you're doing this in every hospital. It's so different." And the [Japanese said,] "That's not really the case. We are fighting for acceptance. It's not in every hospital, as is the case in Germany. There they do this in every hospital, and it's so well accepted." I said, "Well, no, not really. There are some hospitals [offering] Reiki, but it's not common. It's not in every hospital, and it's not accepted everywhere. It's more and more popular, but we in Germany read that is the case in the US, that we'll have so many hospitals working with Reiki and it's so well accepted." So, each of us believed that [things were better] in another country. 
It's a great vision for the future: that all over the world, [Reiki] is much more accepted and gets [to be a] standards therapy in hospitals. But at the moment, we had to experience that it was more a dream than a reality.

DIR: What would be your advice on communicating about the Reiki system to be more accepted in hospitals or community centers in our countries.
OD: There is a teaching in Gendai [Reiki] from Hiroshi Doi: focus on Reiki, be aware of that energy, be with it, but do the best you can and leave the rest to the universe. And I think at the same, we can, of course, have the [goal] to have it more accepted in hospitals; we can talk about this with our friends, with our relatives, we don't have to hide… but we cannot force it. It will come with time. So I think there are some lessons from the universe, [and one of them] is patience. We just need to be patient. I think in the next years and decades, [Reiki] will develop. 
What we can do [meanwhile] is to come to the core of Reiki. I mean, hands-on healing is great. A treatment is fantastic, but for me, the core is the Precepts [or Principles]. If you focus on that, if you integrate this into your daily life—not to be angry, not to worry, and to be thankful—you attract things, that's [the] secret. 
Normally you get something and, after [you] receive it, you are thankful. But the secret thing is, first of all, being thankful [beforehand]. And then, with the law of resonance, you attract exactly this into your life. So be aware of your frequency, be aware of your thoughts, because you're attracting exactly more of that. 
If everyone dedicates more [attention] to the precepts, sharing this knowledge, and integrating them into their lives, we automatically have a different understanding and communication with each other. And finally, even how we treat our environment, our planet, the respect between others and all beings. I think that makes a difference. We are a bit like a light in the darkness if we are caring for Reiki. The people who never had any experience [with it] see us [and ask,] "Why are you behaving like this? What are the things you are convinced of?" We can just be an example and then [share with] other people what our understanding is. 

DIR: I think it is so important what you mentioned about using the Reiki precepts as awareness tools for what's going on with yourself versus following them like if they were commandments. Thank you for sharing that. It's an important insight to help us integrate Reiki into our daily life. And talking about this, what is a gift Reiki has brought into your life? 
OD: Reiki really is a gift. I think it's so nice to work with it. It's so nice to teach this to other people and see what a difference it makes in their lives. They tell me about their experiences with family with their health; this is such nice feedback. 

DIR: You learned many modalities and are a medium. Why did you decide to stick to traditional Reiki when it comes to teaching? 
OD: I think [the modalities and mediumship] are personal experiences. So, when I'm teaching, for example, Gendai Reiki, then I'm teaching just Gendai Reiki. And I tell people there are other teachers, and they have different points of view. But at that moment, I'm focusing on [Gendai's] teaching to give this style's pure content. If I'm teaching what I've learned from Frans—he works from the hara, less with chakras—then it's different teaching. Of course, I can show them that I learned from other teachers with different points of view, but I always tell them this is the pure teaching. If you are teaching this style or that style, keep each clean, don't mix them.
Of course, everybody is free to create new styles. But I think if you just keep it clean, then it can survive in this original nature. If everybody means to create something new just for having his name or his style, it's possibly more a speck of the ego and not the [pure motivation to share Reiki.

DIR: The ego part is key, right? We may have a spiritual practice, but It doesn't mean our ego is always under control. 
OD: I think too that people [should not] expect anything. If they heard that some people had some sensations or visions during the attunement, they shouldn't be disappointed when they did not have them. They should come without any expectation. And then it's even much more worth it if something happens or they experienced something. And I think it's the same with Reiki. There are people who are [innately] connected to the spiritual world. [During] a treatment, [their] hand is attracted to where it is required. Others might hear like a voice saying, "Well, look for the knee as well or care for the shoulder." Every person is different, and every treatment is different. It's not that you need to be a medium or that you need to work with mediumship [to have intuition]. It's independent of Reiki. You can have it, it's an advantage, but it's not a disadvantage if you don't have it. And many things develop in time. The more you're doing Reiki, the more treatments you give, the more self-treatments you have, you're more in that energy, the more things change and develop you as a person and advance that whole thing.

DIR: I think you said two essential things. One is expectations getting in the way of experiencing the practice. And the other thing is that there is one practice, but we all will express it differently. How do you try to control your expectations from the practice or life in general?
OD: Sometimes you tell the students, "You have an intention, there's something that you would like to reach with Reiki, but you don't need to focus so much on it." In Japanese, it's the "nen," the will to do something. On one side, you have an intention to do something; on the other side, you should do this without any intention. So sometimes it's difficult to understand. So I think it's important to have a [goal], to say, "I want to reach this for my clients," but then not to focus so much on it. So just let the Reiki energy flow and work. Once the [goal] is defined, it's good. But thinking all the time about the [goal] is not that good and may distract you from just being a channel and letting Reiki flow. You are not the one to do something. You're just one to channel the energy. And in the end, it's the person who heals himself. We're just creating room for the Reiki energy to work and where all of this can happen, but we are not responsible for its success.

DIR: I love what you say because I think most of us fall into two extremes: we want to control the outcome too much, or we're unaccountable. It's a balance of aiming in the right direction and then letting go. Like archery in a way: you aim and then let that arrow go and do its work. But that is something that takes a lot of practice. 
OD: I think an important of life is not to give up. So if you have had [Reiki 1 Level training], just continue; read your manual again, practice, practice, practice, and don't stop practicing. You have to go on with that to be in it. I think that's a challenge for some people. In these times, many people have a seminar here, a seminar there. Want to have more knowledge from this, from that. There are so many different aspects that you can learn, but if you [need to] focus and keep practicing. Don't stop practicing. Integrate this in your life. I think this is the key to reaching something in the end.

DIR: Yes, we need to imprint that in our minds: do not give up, keep practicing. Changing tracks, you are also a publisher of books about spirituality. A lot of people want to write their own Reiki books. Do you have any advice for them? 
OD: Well, the whole publishing world changed a lot in the last ten, 15 years. I have two publishing houses at the moment. The first I started in 2002…. And then I had to launch the second editorial or publishing house because the [readership] was different. The first one was about keeping animals and pets in your house. And the other one was about spirituality. Two different kinds of readers, so I decided to have two different publishing houses. [I've heard] from colleagues that have been writing Reiki books successfully in the past. Ten years ago, they wrote a book, and if it was successful, they sold twenty to thirty thousand [books.} Then they had a second, third, and up to eight different editions. 
It's quite different today. Even the most successful authors of Reiki books—many of them I know personally—are happy to reach a quantity of maybe 500 books in the first year. These are not the numbers that we were used to in the past. It's is a challenge if you are printing something, not the book on-demand [model]. Book on-demand is nice if you want to have something saying, "I have written a book." You can never get it to the wholesale markets or the shops because you have to discount. And this discount is so big that in the end, the printing costs are higher than the discount you give. So, it's absolutely impossible to work professionally with a book on demands—you can just have this as a hobby. You can have it as personal satisfaction, the fact sheet, but you can't really sell quantity and cover your costs. 
If you do it the professional way, that means you need to print books. To print means quantity. So you have the printing machines running, and that's the most expensive thing. If you print 2000 copies or 3000 copies, that does not make [much difference in the] price. Just to keep the machine running, that's the main cost. If you divide the total cost by the quantity you have made, the more books printed, the more attractive the price. In my experience, I need to print at least two to three thousand books to have a price that's good enough to [sell] wholesale and to book shops. But, if you are just selling quantities of 500 [books per year], you need six years to sell them all. You need to store them in a warehouse. 
Sometimes with other [kind of] books, you're more successful. You have higher quantities. But Reiki [has become] especially difficult. Just this year, I've been speaking with many bookshops and [asking them why they don't] have one Reiki book on the shelves. Why is that? They said, "Well, it's not popular. At the moment, we sell books about yoga, yoga Nidra, yin yoga, but Reiki is a thing of the past. It's not popular. It's not fashionable." So for me, Reiki is not about popularity or fashion. It's still important these days, but that's the thinking of many shop owners. They just carry one trend and then another trend. Reiki is something they sold successfully in the past, but most of them are not interested in having this on their shelves [now]. So it's quite difficult to do Reiki book projects at this moment, at least from my experience here in the German market, which includes German-speaking countries like Austria and Switzerland. Maybe it might be different than other parts of the world.  

DIR: I appreciate your answer. I think it's also great to know that you can write your book, go ahead— just don't expect to become a bestseller or a millionaire!
I have one last question. I ask everyone I interview the following, "What is your biggest Reiki 'oops'?" 
OD: Yes, there is one story that I would like to share. It's something I tell my students in class—it's nothing I must be ashamed of. Of course, it's a mistake, but I think a mistake is just a bad word for an experience. I think as humans, we're making experiences and not mistakes. And from that, we can learn, and others have the chance to learn. 
I was a Reiki Level 2 student, and we were asked to practice distance healing. We found ourselves in a room with ten people, five were giving distance healing, and five were receiving. I had to work with a gentleman named Peter from Cologne, and he was sitting on his chair about ten meters away. So I started by being aware of being connected with Reiki, then gave this treatment to Peter, starting with his head and letting Reiki flow. Then I thought, "Oh, that's a nice lady on my side. She's attractive." I was single at that time. "Oh, she has beautiful eyes. How would it be to be with that girl? We would both be Reiki practitioners, not just one part of a couple. We could share this. We could have a nice walk. How would it feel to hold her hand." And then I went, "What are you doing? You were asked to give distant healing and not to care for the lady at your side!" I said, "Well, how much time did I lose with that? Okay. I won't do the upper part of Peter's body. I will just start with his legs." So, I gave this treatment to the legs, to the knees, and the feet. When Peter gave me feedback, he said, "I have to ask you something? I fell your presence on my head. It was so strong, but what happened then? It's like, Oliver left the room; there is nobody there anymore. Hello, Oliver, where are you? Nothing. And then you continue with next with my legs. In the meantime, what did you do? Where were you? I said, "Peter, first, congratulations, you are able to feel the Reiki energy. What happened was that I was not focused. I was thinking more about the lady at my side than giving you a treatment. I'm very sorry. Let's see this as a lesson!"
When I'm telling this [story] to my students, I say there are five different things we can learn from this. The first thing is Reiki energy exists. The second is you can feel Reiki energy. The third is you need to be focused when giving Reiki. So when you give Reiki, just give Reiki, don't think about what to cook in the evening, what to buy tomorrow. Be in the moment, be in the now. The fourth thing is to be aware that focusing matters, that it makes a difference. And the last thing to be aware is that skilled clients could read us.

DIR: I love that story. As you said, it gives you so much teaching material! Thank you for sharing that, Oliver. 
OD: You're welcome.

DIR: I want to thank you for your time for your kindness. This interview is so filled with wisdom, and also I love how organized your mind is compared to mine. I appreciate how articulate and clear your answers were. Thank you so much.
OD: Well, thank you very much for inviting me!

Drawing inspired by Oliver Drewes (© nathalie jaspar)

Maria Kammerer is a full-time Reiki practitioner, teacher, and community leader based in Cincinnati, Ohio. Her Reiki journey started in the year 2000, and she continues to practice and develop her understanding of Reiki. Maria is a graduate teacher with the International House of Reiki and the founder of Attune the Art of Reiki. She is also the host of Be the Light podcast. We discuss her origin story, making a living out of Reiki, the importance of community in developing our spiritual journey, and tips to deepen our practice. 

DIVE INTO REIKI: Maria, thank you for accepting the invitation!
MARIA KAMMERER: Thank you so much for having me here. I'm so excited to chat with you and your lovely community. Thanks!

DIR: I wanted to start with the question I ask every interviewee: when was your first encounter with Reiki? What was your origin story as a Reiki practitioner?
MK: I love thinking about an "origin" story. It's like a superhero story. Thank you! That makes me laugh a lot. But you know, it's also powerful. I encountered Reiki when I was doing a year in service with AmeriCorps. It's like the Peace Corps but in my own community. At the time, I was going to school. I was young. I had been a single mom, I had met my sweet husband, we had another baby, and I was working. [It was] a full and crazy, crazy life. 

DIR: Indeed, I don't know how you even did that!
MK: Reiki practice, actually! I did it because I'm really strong, right? And so I just kept going. [Like] so many people. We all keep going. We burn out, and we keep going anyway. We try to sleep, and we can't get to sleep very well. We wake up the next day, and we're operating from that place of [running on empty.] You don't have anything left, but you keep going. And at some point, I was like, there has got to be another way. Luckily, I was working at a women's resource center. One of the women in that community was a Reiki practitioner [and] teacher, and she was so sweet. She was such a wonderful woman. There was something about her. It was probably her Reiki practice, right? She was so peaceful. She was so happy. [And] I had so much turmoil at an emotional level—baggage about my parents being divorced, being the seventh child, etc.

DIR: That's why you're so boisterous. You had to remind them you existed!  
MK: I was actually super, super shy and quiet. Through my Reiki practice, I've been able to kind of accept who I am more— [I became] much friendlier, much more fun. So, I had a lot of turmoil [at] all levels of my life. My friend recommended going to a Reiki treatment, and I was like, "I don't know what Reiki is, but I'm going to try it." It was the best thing I've ever done. I just felt more myself. And it was like, "How do you forget yourself?" I felt myself again, and I felt so happy, so in the flow. I felt at peace. I got home, and I just felt all this overwhelming sense of love for my family. Because I was present, really present, and I could love them the way that they needed to. There were my two boys, now in their twenties. I always wanted to be a good parent. I always wanted to be a good person. And I think Reiki really helped me to do that because I could be myself. I could let go of my worry. I could let go of my fear. I could just be, have more gratitude and more compassion.

Maria Kammerer, of Attune: the Art of Reiki.

DIR: I love the way you put it because a lot of us, we take a Reiki class, and we're like, "Oh, I didn't see the angels. I didn't see colors, but I feel very peaceful." We say it's less of an experience. Yet how many times are we feeling really peaceful in our lives? It's such a gift to be present and calm.
MK: Oh my gosh, so true. Because we can lose track of what's really important in life, you know, and a lot of times we want to be entertained, which is great. I love to have fun, no doubt. But actually, being peaceful means that I can really be resting in myself. And then I have the freedom to have fun, no matter what the conditions are, to get the most out of my life. Even accepting the anger or the angry parts of who we are. That's so healing. And that comes [when] you have peace in you—you're able to accept the sadness or the other parts of yourself that you've been trying to hold back or hold down.

DIR: When we're doing the pre-interview, you said a phrase that really struck me: you have to love yourself so much that you love even your anger, and that for you, Reiki practice allowed that. That is really such a beautiful statement. 
MK: As I mentioned earlier, I used to be really, really shy, and I used to be so stiff too. Like, "All right… I gotta be perfect." I just wanted to fit in. I never felt like I've really fit into anything, you know? And so I tried to blend in super hard, and that's so much effort. I mean, you should've seen me on the dance floor. [She dances like a robot.] I couldn't be free. 

DIR: I met you three, four years ago. And when you're describing yourself as shy and stiff, I can't believe it. You were always dancing, moving, and laughing. 
MK: Isn't that funny? I started to relax into my own body. I feel like I embody who I am now because my energy is in my own self. It's not out there trying to control the world or my own emotions. I'm not looking for happiness and peace outside of myself. I used to think, What do people mean by "love yourself"? What is peace? How to let go. Sometimes that can be a puzzle. But I think we have to start to trust ourselves a little more and just do the practice. Just sit, practice, and [let go] all that stuff that the mind puzzles through. How to love your anger? That's a huge thing. It comes with [practice]. You start to unfold and accept things: the angry parts of you and the loving parts even more. And the, and the bitchy parts—sorry for cussing!

I can allow myself [to be.] I can be funny. I never could do that before. Transformation, it's so good that we can progress. We can start to live more in the moment.

DIR: There is something essential in what you said: we alw­ays expect the attunement to do the work. However, the attunement is an initial taste of that peace of mind, acceptance, and feeling good. Daily practice is what allows us to shed all those layers of anger and fear. 
MK: I'm glad you said that because it's true. I love to learn things. I took all the Reiki classes I could. I was like, "I'm so hungry for this. I love it." I was learning modern teachings. But I think that to really progress in your own transformation, to continue to let go of layers, you need to have that dedication to yourself. What happened at the beginning is that I felt really good, and then I stopped practicing. 

DIR: Like most of us do!
MK: Because you feel good. So you're like, "Yeah, I feel good." And then you slowly start to feel worse and worse and worse. And then I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I have this Reiki practice!" Some lightbulbs would go on, I would practice, and then, oh my gosh, I would feel really good. Then at some point, I said to myself, "I've got to stop doing this to myself." I think I became so aware of my own state of being [I realized that] I have a choice. If I feel bad, you know what? I have a choice: I can dedicate myself to this wor­k of showing compassion, loving myself more by doing the work, and being diligent in my practice. And I think that's super important. And that way, I continue to feel good and then feel better and better and, and who freaking knows, right? It is such a joy. Every day is a new day. Every moment is a fresh moment. 

DIR: When we talked another time, you mentioned the precept "gyo-o hageme," which many people translate as "work hard," but it's really more about practicing diligently. When I went to a Zen monastery, it also means when you sit and new practice, you're already enlightened. So this precept is also a reminder that you already are enlightened. You just need to practice, right? Okay, I probably killed this a little bit. [Laugh.] I think it's one of the less talked about precepts, so it was very exciting when I heard it was your favorite precept! 
MK: I love "gyo-o hageme"! To me, [when we say] work or being diligent, we could squeeze the juice out of anything. We can make our meditation practice so dry and can punish ourselves with it. So I think actually practicing diligently, or diligence is actually to enjoy. To enjoy the meditations and to really enjoy that hands-on healing and feel that loving touch. We cannot really be as open if we work too hard at it. If we try to make something happen or want to create some effect, we have too much stuff in the way. So, you know what? Stop, enjoy this moment, enjoy your own breath, your own energy, body, mind—and that's when I think it just feels really good.

DIR: I know, it's about doing a chore. It's really, as you say, about self-love. This precept is self-love in action. It's one of my favorite precepts, although the one I need the most is "Just for today," which is not literally one, but... I was so excited when I discovered you were another "gyo-o hageme lover." I have a whole class on it: The underdog precept. 
MK: The "gyo-o hageme team!

DIR: When we talk about your origin story, you trained with several teachers, you hit a wall, and later you found a community that helped move forward. I wanted to talk about the importance of having a Reiki community, in your case in Cincinnati. 
MK: I think we're so lucky to have a beautiful Cincinnati Reiki community. It was founded by Sundar Kadayam and Zeynep Yilmaz. They are wonderful practitioners, really dedicated to their own practice.

I learned from lots of different teachers, all wonderful but more a Western-style Reiki, which is great, and I think it helped me actually so much in my life, as you can tell. But at one point in my practice, [I struggled.] I am such a hard worker, that's probably why I like gyo-o hageme. I'm just like, "I will do my homework. I will read the books." Do you know what I mean? I was doing that with the teachings I had, and it just didn't make sense to me. I didn't really understand how Reiki worked. I was teaching, but I didn't understand so many things. My progression definitely hit a wall. I felt like I was just spinning my wheels and not really going forward. 

So Zeynep, the coordinator for the Cincinnati Reiki, reached out to me, and she invited me to go to this group. I was like, "Oh my gosh, I don't know what's going to happen!" Like, "What are these people going to be like?" Because I'm pretty much alone. I can be a loner. I'm good by myself. So, I went and, oh my gosh, this group was so beautiful. They're so harmonious and welcoming. I really appreciated that. Because I was still a little shy, and I wasn't sure. I was a little suspicious of them. They will laugh to this day.

They started to share the chanting... The chanting [was] part of their tradition that they had learned from Frans Stiene and the International House of Reiki. And I got to chant with this beautiful group. It was probably like 25 or 30 Reiki practitioners. And I was blown away. I felt like, "Oh my gosh, Reiki is me. It's in me. And it's in my own Hara. It's in my own center." It made so much sense, and it felt so good. [Having that community] completely changed the way that I felt about Reiki and how I practiced.

Over the years, we've gotten together so many times. But we have two main events, twice a year, that we all gather together. And it's from people from all different lineages, not just the International House of Reiki. Everyone's invited. We practice, we learn. Having the support of people that understand your language around energy or have similar experiences to you [was amazing.] They became for me like a bigger family of people to love you and support you in your life. And that's what it's really become—this ever-widening circle of Reiki family. And I feel like I meet more Reiki family all over the world like you, and people from Australia, Germany, and California. It's just so great. Having that group showed me so much, like Reiki's many faces and everybody's different transformation and development. It's so many lessons, right. As I said, I come from a big family already, so to me, that felt really natural. 

I would try to talk to other people about Reiki, especially at first. I was like, "Come here, come here and try this Reiki stuff. It's amazing." They were like, "Crazy lady!"

DIR: Crazy lady is the favorite one! A lot of people want to create Reiki circles and Reiki communities. Can you give a few tips? What is critical for someone who wants to create a community that is both relevant and sustainable?
MK: Now I'm hosting the Cincinnati Reiki events. I feel like the more we practice, the more we include more people automatically. When you practice, you're practicing not just for yourself but for your family and your loved ones. Then that wider circle starts to happen. I think your personal practice is really important. Then if you feel you want to start a group for yourself—and I encourage you to do that, it's always more fun with friends— having the dedication to continuing to show up. 

If you have even just one person in mind who would practice with you, that's great. Don't wait for the perfect circumstances to begin. Invite that one person. Set the date and time. Once you put it on your calendar, it's going to happen. You have that one person that you're accountable to; it's got to happen.

DIR: I love how simple you made it. Right. We think it's all about creating a Facebook page with a following and creating logos and names. It actually starts with one person and a calendar invite.
MK: We have to keep it simple. It's just that you want to gather together. You want to practice together. You know, it can be very simple like that. And just remain open to you know who you want to invite… If you have a few people that maybe you took classes with, or maybe [who love] Reiki treatments, or just a little bit of interest, right? It's just like a little seed that you water, and it starts to grow. And the only thing that it needs is your time, a bit of attention, compassion, and it will grow.

DIR: I love that. Just start with one, and little by little, it will grow. And don't get frustrated if there are few people for the first two or three circles because it takes time to build a community. 
MK: Absolutely. But if you just keep holding that space open, if you just keep going and then, of course, it will start to develop,

DIR: You've been practicing for over 20 years. Is there one tip you will give someone to deepen their practice? Is there a straightforward piece of advice for people to deepen their practice or fall back in love with their practice again if they feel stuck or disenchanted?
MK: I love this question! I think, "Don't strive for perfection." That's not what life is. You know, perfection, when I think about that, it's so not alive. It's so plastic and not alive, don't strive for that. Strive to just be here now. All you have to do is this one step: fully do that one thing, that one breath, that meditation, or that one practice. Forget everything else. Really commit yourself to that five minutes of breathing in the Hara, and not worrying about that you've got to be one with the universe, or you have to feel the light or see the light or any of that. Just get to enjoy what is here. That's so unusual because we often go so quick, so fast in our life, we're going for the next practice going for the next goal, or going for the next thing. But, if we just rest in that one thing that we're doing, it doesn't matter what it is. It could be driving. You are Reiki already. Your spiritual journey is already happening. Remember to include yourself in everything that you do. 

DIR: You made it so simple. We're not fixing, we're not, self-improvement, we're just being. We all struggle with similar issues, but we don't talk a lot about that side of our practice. Perfectionism is a hard one, especially for women and especially here in the US. There is pressure for us to be strong yet soft, to be witty, feminine, everything. The list keeps growing.
MK: It's so true. That's too much. We put ourselves under so much pressure, and we just had to let off the pressure and just be ourselves because we got to start to trust who we are. Because there's nobody like you out there, and you've got to trust that. One of our teachers, Frans Stiene, used to say, "You got to love yourself 200%." I was like, "I understand what you're saying in my mind, but the rest of me doesn't get that." I think I understand that more these days, and I am super grateful for that. I feel like it's this caring: I know the state of my own being now; I'm a little more aware of how I'm feeling. I'm just tending to that a little more. Each day I'm not striving to be perfect or like anyone else, at least for now.

DIR: You are a wonderful being,
MK: I kind of want to be Michelle Obama, but you know…

DIR: Well, now that you say, Michelle Obama, yeah! Like that. Beyond any political belief, a woman who keeps going to Target and is grounded after going to the White House—that's my kind of woman. 
MK: She is amazing; she's herself!

DIR: I always saw Reiki as a practice of acceptance of the self, but the way you put it into words—this coming into your being with authenticity—feels more joyful. Be fully who you are, show your colors. 
MK: Why not? One of the problems is that we think we have so much time. Actually, we're all going to die someday, so we might as well make the most of it. 

The more true you are to your way in your being—one of the Reiki precepts—the easier it is to allow others to be free, to be true to themselves. And I love that because it's so much more flexible, so much more open. I can be who I am right now, and it may be different tomorrow. Who knows? My husband thinks that's funny. He's like, "You're still the same as you were yesterday." I'm like, No, I'm not!"

DIR: You actually make a living off Reiki practice, a challenge many practitioners struggle with. How do you balance the money side with the spiritual side?  
MK: Hmm. That's a great question. Having a Reiki business is different than other businesses. It cannot be the way that we work at everything else. It's a spiritual journey, and Reiki is a spiritual practice, right? So you can't have the business the same way. I see my business as more holistic: all parts of my business have to be about healing. And most of that healing is my healing. Some people would say, "Well, that's kind of a selfish thing to say." But we have to stop thinking about that: it's not selfish to care for yourself and take care of yourself. In fact, it's the best thing that we can do for our loved ones and the world. Because that's a little less anger out there.

DIR: We have to see self-care as everybody care. Because if you're centered, you're not going to be driving the other people mad.
MK: Yeah. So, you know, the money aspect of my business… I have to work on my own piece about that and work on my money issues. When things come up, when [you are] feeling fear, you need to take good care of yourself. During our spiritual journey, you uncover these uncomfortable truths… about yourself, sometimes about others, but it's okay to face them. With a [solid] practice, we have the energy, we have the mental space in our minds, hearts, bodies, whatever, to see those things and take good care of them. Because then we can let them start to open up however they need to [in] a way we digest these lessons like food. We take our experiences in, and we take the wisdom from these experiences. We digest them, and we can let go of everything else. 

So I learned a lot about my fears regarding money and being paid to serve others. And also, people would bring me things like, "You're making money off of people, and that should be free." And I was like, "Well, actually, I have to take care of my children and my family too. And I need to pay for groceries." My life is not the same as everybody else's, but you have to have harmony in your life. Harmony is a thing that's always kind of changing. As you grow, that harmony between money, your work, and your time at home changes. Whatever the situation is, [challenges keep] coming back again and again and again. You grow, and then there is harmony again. So yeah, I see it as an opportunity. 

I don't think you go into a Reiki business trying to make a bunch of money, right? Because that's not the purpose of that. I think you have to have a really good intention for yourself and what you're offering to the world, which is the system of Reiki. We have to be really clear about that. My intention for my work is to be true to the nature of who we are. I want to rest in that peace more and more of who I really am. And I offer that to anybody who wants to receive that. I want to re rest of my own Reiki energy. And I support people in their own remembering of what that is. Their own peace, their own happiness. 

I try to stay really clear about that, and that helps me as I develop my business. As I start putting pieces together [I ask myself], is this living the precepts? Because it can be very difficult. It's challenging. But I did start on just like anything else: I tried to keep it very simple. I started offering treatments while working full-time as one of the administrators at a school. That felt really good. I got a lot of joy out of sharing Reiki with other people. And then I started to teach a little bit and, oh my gosh, that's so much fun. Of course, my own practice changed, and so the way that I offer changes. I feel like Reiki is who I am and, and who I am is always flowing. We have to stay alive in our practice and in ourselves because things change all the time. I mean, think about COVID and all of that stuff. I had to shut my business down, and I was on the couch crying. I was heartbroken. I felt like my mission in life was canceled. 

DIR: It's such a different space you are working from. Instead of worrying about money first, it's the fact that your purpose in life has been canceled that affected you when it came to shutting down. 
MK: I've always been in this place of wanting to serve others. With Reiki, I found I could help myself and also serve others, which was awesome. I love the multitask! in a way, I want to receive what I want to share. I want to share from that place of feeling good and overflowing—that totally makes sense to me. By starting part-time, I wasn't worried about the bills so much. I could still pay my bills so I could manage my fear.

DIR: Starting to charge for sessions is one of the hardest parts!
MK: I had to work out [how to charge and all] these things. I gave myself the space and the time to develop as I needed to. And, you know, my teaching has changed how my Reiki treatments have changed from the beginning to now. I think it's just changed because I feel more peaceful. I think it's so simple; it's so practical. We got to take care of our hopes and fears in a Reiki business, so we don't get carried away. And really remain in that [space of] for this moment only so that you can be just receiving and healing yourself throughout the process.

So, when my mission got canceled, I had to cry. I had to take care of myself. And I realized, wait, I'm still here. It's not the end of my life. I can still offer what I can, and I'm going to do it. And so I did. If I had one Reiki session online, I was just really grateful for that. I just took good care of myself and my family. I ended up taking care of my neighborhood because I would just be walking all the time, and I'd noticed my neighbors were super isolated.

This is just life, right? The caring for my neighbors and my family in a new way. And we became closer. Normally we don't have that opportunity to chat with each other. Now I have a sweet little community. I'm so excited about that.

We have to keep growing and our business changes. The needs for your business change just as you do. So, stay open to that. Don't hold on to the way your business operates so much because it can change. What's precious and sacred is you and the people that you get to meet. Just remember that. Keep going, Don't give up.

And then the other thing is that anytime you want to try something new or bring something out into the world, start talking about it. I start telling people, "Hey, guess what I'm thinking about doing that." You get people to be on your side and support you through that process. Because if you're excited about something, your loved ones are excited about it too. And they will ask you about it next week: "Hey, how's that going?" That actually keeps you accountable. "Oh, yeah. I did nothing on it!"

DIR: Which happens often!
I did that before I started the podcast, and it's what forced me to go ahead and set up that first interview. It works? I love offering sessions, but I sometimes find it challenging to deal with some clients, especially in New York City. You mentioned the other time we talked an excellent piece of advice to deal with Reiki clients: the most compassionate way I can handle this situation. Can you elaborate a little on this?
MK: Sometimes, that precept can be hard: to be compassionate to yourself and others. But it made me realize that compassion is not about being nice. I grew up to be nice and a good person, and I wasn't being very compassionate to myself. I'm a giver. I took care of everybody else, and I always left myself out. So being compassionate is actually [asking yourself] what is the most loving action you can do for yourself and others. The more we start to work with that precept, the easier [it is] when difficulties happen, or difficult people are in our lives. I think it's to not hide from that, to not be afraid. We have the strength; we have the compassion to accept them for who they are. And also to be strong. Compassion can be very strong, can be very fiery. The most loving action can sometimes be a really sharp kick in the butt. Do you know what I mean? I have two boys. They really helped me with that!

One of my friends who I really, really loved once gave me some of the best advice. She said, "You're too nice. Your children, your husband, they're running all over you. You're being a doormat." But I think we can do this in our business too, that we just offer an offer, and it's not the right [approach.] It's okay to say no to your clients and to your students. And to not accept people as a client or a student. In fact, that may be the most loving action. [My friend] said, "Sometimes you just gotta go ape shit crazy on people, on your family, and let them know that it's not okay." I just thought that was hysterical. I got a good laugh out of that but, but she's right. Because by being too nice, we're not taking responsibility for what is happening in our lives. Also, we disempower people by not allowing them to hear the truth of the situation and take responsibility for their part of whatever that is. 

I'm just trying to think of a specific example. I have had a student who ran into a friend of mine who's an incredible Reiki teacher. He lives in a different state, so he sent him to me to be my student. And I was like, "Yeah, for my friend, of course, you're welcome to take my class. Oh, you want to take it for free? Yeah, of course, you can take my class for free. Oh, you're going to be a really tough person to deal with all the time. I can handle that." I cared for this person. I cared for our relationship for as long as we could, and I cared for myself, but I realized I don't need to put myself in those situations. Some students are not the right students for me.

DIR: I like to chat with the people who want to study with me to check if we both feel like we are a match. Especially when it comes to Reiki 3, as it implies a significant investment. 
MK: I think the more centered and grounded you are, the more you have clarity in your life, and how you're communicating Reiki is clearer. Then the people who come to see you are the people that need to be there. All my clients are so lovely, and my students are so lovely, and I really enjoy them. I have taken care of my stuff too. So I have a little less in me, which is also helpful, fewer buttons to push you a little more gratitude, and a little more compassion in me, which is great. Boundaries are a good thing, and being able to be strong and say no. Or say, "You know what? You [need] to practice." I'm going to tell the truth. Whether people receive that or not is up to them, that's their responsibility. And I am not worried about it. I'm less worried about it than ever.

DIR: I know. It's, I love that. Boundaries and truthfulness. I have some students that have the same question class after class. I know that if they sat and did their practice, they will not have that question. So my answer is, "Sit on your bottom and tell me next week." Sometimes the most compassionate action is making sure people practice versus "solving" challenges for them. To hold the space for self-exploration. And I love the way you put it, "Hey, it's on you."
MK: Yeah. It's so much more empowering when you support someone in their own healing. We know that's what's happening: people are healing themselves. We want people to be empowered and to have their own Reiki energy. To really embody that. It's such a gift. It just keeps giving to their families, to their world, to what's happening in their life. I really appreciate each person's sacredness in that space and that it's not me who's doing the healing. I'm there holding that space for each person, whatever's going on. Not examining too much in my mind. When people have questions or things, I just try to communicate from that place of compassion as best as I can. I also tell them, "If it doesn't resonate with you, just throw it out, forget it, take what you need from the situations, and just enjoy."

DIR: Changing course a little bit, you went to Japan for further training and recently completed a mountain monk training. Can you chat a bit about that?
MK: I was lucky enough to go to Japan with Oliver Drewes, Frans Stiene, and a really incredible group of Reiki practitioners from all over the world. That was called Walking in the footsteps of a Mikao Usui. I think getting to feel the land, culture, people, traditions, and walk on the mountains—I feel like those roots [are now] a part of me somehow. When we eat the food of a place and enjoy the culture, we learn so much from those experiences, of being immersed in practice. 

I continued researching on my own about Mikao Usui, the founder of Reiki, and his practices. I'm such a nerd in so many ways. I found a Shugendo mountain training that was happening in the United States. That's a very rare circumstance, as far as I can tell. So I was really excited to go because Mikao Usui practiced Shugendo. And Shugendo, it's about becoming one with Kami—or the divine nature of who you are—through accepting that Kami in nature, in yourself, the elements, and all of those things. It's a very aesthetic practice, so really difficult. One of my students called it Zen CrossFit! There's a lot of endurance practices that you go through. The point is not that you do the endurance, that you're super strong and can run, chant for 15 hours, and hike up the mountains with no food, not that much water. The important thing is that you are dedicated to that practice, that you really rest in who you are and trust your practice. You have that opportunity to see and confront your fears and the fact that you may die. It's pretty intense. You have compassion for yourself and can say, "That's good. I think I'll take a break." Because it's not about our ego—it's about really exposing our true nature a little more. 

It really helped me see a different aspect of Mikao Usui's practice and experience it for myself. I think that adds a different richness, a different perspective. I love exploring and keeping my practice really alive. And this was one way. I was so grateful to get out of my house [laughs] to embrace chanting the heart Sutra for hours and the Fudo mantra and being able to embody that mind like a mountain [quality.] rooted in peace, able to stand in any kind of weather.

DIR: For those not familiar with these practices and chants, you can find more about Shugendo here; listen to the Fudo Mantra chant here and here for the Heart Sutra.  My last question is another one I ask every practitioner. What is your biggest Reiki oops? What is the "mistake" that you made that made you go like, wow, this is a big lesson?
MK: Gosh, I mean, I mess up all the time! I actually think it is good to share mistakes. I think embracing our mistakes and our mess-ups is wonderful. It's just that gentling of that feeling that we have to be perfect. We don't. I learned so much from my mistakes; although I love to learn through happiness and joy, I think that's really important. We don't always have to learn through suffering and mistakes, you know? Happiness and joy are just as great. 

But when I first started practicing Reiki, I was super excited, and I was really forceful about it. I was like, "No, really sit down, sit, no sit. And I'm going to give you Reiki." So I've done all those things. So I can really understand people putting all the power of the universe on someone's knee and trying really hard. I really laugh about that now. At one point, I just was like, I'm so sorry to all my students! It's not that I messed up, but I kept changing and growing. My wisdom and my understanding of Reiki grew. I actually reached out to my beginning students like, "Hey, you guys, I'm practicing Reiki in a whole different way. I'm not putting all the power of the universe on our knees. I'm feeling my own relationship with the universe more and more, and I want to share that with you. It's so important to remember who you are that you are sacred; you are Reiki. Guess what? It's in you." 

DIR: [Laughs] I think, unless you've gone through all this process of trying too hard, trying to fix—you cannot be a compassionate teacher. And I also don't really know if it's a mistake or just a stage of learning we all go through. And as teachers or job is to hold a space where our students can be human and have an embodied practice.

Maria, I want to thank you so much for your time and the chance to know you better. Sometimes when we see people so happy, we enjoy the happiness. We don't get the depth of practice being that joy behind it. I really appreciate you sharing your journey with us! 
MK: Thank you so much! Take care. 

Reiki drawing inspired by Maria Kammerer’s journey.

Ifetayo White is a Reiki Master Teacher who is the founder and director of The Lowcountry School of Reiki on St. Helena Island, SC.  Having practiced and taught Reiki for more than 25 years, Ifetayo was attuned in 2020 as a Usui Shinpiden Reiki Master by Frans Stiene of the International House of Reiki. Her training as a doula, a massage therapist, and Jin Shin Do acupressure practitioner, and 10 years of experience working in mental health have created the container for her practice in somatic healing of traumatic memory stored in the body. For Ifetayo, Reiki is the foundation of everything she does in her life and is devoted to the daily practices of living Reiki.

DIVE INTO REIKI: Ifetayo, thank you so much for joining me. I see you, and I just smile!
IFETAYO WHITE: It's a pleasure to be here. Every time we come together, I have chills and tangles and excitement. Thank you so much for inviting me.

DIR: It's going to be a lovefest. Sorry. I like to start every interview with the same question: how did you come in contact with Reiki, and how did your journey begin?
IF: It's an interesting journey. My first experience with Reiki was in the 80s. I would think around 1984. I'm from Washington DC, and around that time, I was meeting the first Reiki practitioners… Eventually, one of my best friends became Reiki 1 first. She eventually became a Reiki master and became my Reiki teacher. At that time, I don't think anyone was charging for Reiki. At least my friends weren't. And so, we were all lined up all the time waiting to receive. And fortunately, Nathalie, my friend I owned a duplex house. She rented the first floor. So, it was always like nonstop Reiki. They had a lot of Reiki shares. So yeah, it became a go-to for me for any discomfort. Even when practitioners wanted to practice, I was always with my hand up. I try to remember what it was, what was I feeling, I'd know that I felt better. That's all I can think now because it was quite a while ago. I personally was not at all thinking about becoming a practitioner or a teacher. I was just really interested in receiving.

 DIR: That's beautiful. Most of us Reiki practitioners have a difficult time receiving.
IF: Yeah. And it took many years before me of receiving before I became attuned. I became attuned to Reiki one and Reiki 2 in 1995 for my 50th birthday. The same friend who had become a Reiki master asked if she could give me Reiki 1 and 2. And at that time, I was a massage therapist and reflexologist. I was devoted to those practices, and I really did not feel a calling to Reiki. I loved the practice, but I felt as though I had good energy in my hands; everyone said you have good energy.

My friend assured me that if I had an attunement, there was some more for me to know and experience. I didn't initially say yes to her offer. I said, "Let me meditate on it." I was a big meditator. In my meditation, what I felt and received guidance was, "Receive the gift." That's all I heard. And that was that's profound. The gift has been the gift that has continued to give. Always.

So, on my 50th birthday [I became Reiki 1], and two months later, I became Reiki 2. In 1999, four years later, a student of my Reiki master who had become a Reiki master needed someone to practice with. She said, "Can I attune you as a Reiki master teacher?" And I was like, "Sure." I hadn't planned to teach. I'm really, that was not my plan. So, I tell so many of my students, "Reiki has its way with you." Reiki called me more than I called it to me. It was divine. Reiki is my life now.

DIR: A couple of things I would like to highlight from what you said: that you were able to receive first. Often as practitioners, we want to give sessions, and we hardly receive any. And then you took the time to connect with your inner self to check if you really wanted to move forward into Reiki training.
IF: I don't know how to explain it, except that's how it was. My journey was that way. And my friend, who was my first Reiki master, no longer practices… I was the first Reiki master in Beaufort, South Carolina when I moved [here] in 2000. And that was interesting. I live on St. Helena Island, but it's part of Beaufort County... It's more rural where I live. But as I said, Reiki has its way with us. It's divine. We can't control it, as you know from practicing. Our lives are influenced nonstop by Reiki. My life is informed by Reiki.

DIR: Yeah. And that's an amazing thing, right? It happens to us that we learn Reiki because the practice calls us. But often, it isn't until we find a special teacher or book that we really grow into it.
IF: Yes. I had been teaching for 20 years before I met Frans [Stiene]. Prior to that, around a year before I met him, one of my [Reiki] master's students had seen his book somewhere, The Inner Heart of Reiki. And she said, "Oh Ifetayo, you have to have this book," and she bought it for me. I couldn't put it down. I've read it over and over. I wish I could show you my copy right now. It's so dogeared. I buy new copies and give them away, Nathalie. And I just keep my copy. But that [book] became my Bible in so many ways. I learned so much, I could feel something transforming in myself.

Then I saw an announcement from the Omega Institute that Frans would be in New York in May 2019. So, I went there, and I met him. We were chanting the precepts in Japanese… Since that time, he came to my home in St. Helena in February of 2020. He came and taught Reiki 3 - Shinpiden level at my home to 12 women. In rural South Carolina! I couldn't believe he would come. We had a wonderful time, and I have not been the same since then.

My whole practice has transformed. I teach more Reiki masters now than ever. [My daily Reiki practice has changed. Before] I gave myself Reiki every day. I said my precepts every day. Now there's a whole lot more than I do every day. I'm so grateful for him and the expansion of my life and my practice. For the capacity to reach so many more beautiful beings and share Reiki with them as I intend. My practice has the intention of bringing and supporting beautiful beings back to their true selves. [Supporting] the knowing and living from that place of light within. And that's why I teach really—and everything else is gravy.

DIR: What you describe is going from an energy modality focused on well-being and physical improvement to a spiritual practice to reconnect with our true essence with an energetic component.
IF: Absolutely. I've always been a very spiritual person. I'm a deep seeker. When Frans came, it was like that connection just filled up everything that my heart had been asking for. And so, yes, Reiki is my spiritual practice, and it is my healing practice. And it is my love practice and everything practice.

 DIR: Your name has a beautiful translation. And for me your name, it's almost like the definition of Reiki. So, I would love for you to share that translation?
IF: My name is a spiritually-given name from the Yoruba African tradition. And it is now my legal name. I changed my name legally to Ifetayo Jacqueline White. Jacqueline was my birth name, which is equally beautiful. But Ifetayo was given to me by a priest who saw me and said, "You are Ifetayo." I didn't choose the name. And the name means "love that brings joy." And of course, like with any name, the request is to grow into that energy. So, since I was 49—I think that's when Ifetayo became my name—there have been many years of growing into it. Reiki has been a big part of that for me: growing into the light that I am. Living and expressing that light, that love, that joy. That's who I am. And I'm so grateful.

I love that you have that you brought [Reiki and my name] together. [In a way] in my 49th year, the year before I became Reiki, the name was calling Reiki to bring all of the support I needed to live out this name destiny.

DIR: It's almost like pointing towards how our practice should be. I know we're obsessed with shadow work lately, but sometimes we need to let go of shadows and sit in our light.
You're bringing Reiki to rural communities, to people who didn't have access to it. Often, it seems that Reiki is a practice mostly for hipsters or people who are into the new age movements in cities versus other communities that tend to be more diverse.  When we talked previously, you mentioned something that stuck in my mind: that there is no race or color in oneness, but we incarnate the person we are to bring access to the practice to specific groups of people. Can you elaborate a bit on that?
IF: Absolutely. As I shared earlier, I am from Washington DC, and I learned about Reiki in Washington DC—a city, an urban area. I attended the unity metaphysical Christian Church at that time for 10 years. And that's where all these Reiki people were. I was also a transcendental meditator. All of this was sort of mixing up together. My church was multi-racial, but our minister was African American. And so, there were just a lot of African-American people in that congregation who were very interested in new-age at that time.

That's where I was nurtured. My first Reiki master was an African American woman. The first African American woman Reiki master in DC is a friend of mine, Gwen Mitchell, who's now in California. So, for me, [I felt there] was always many people of color practicing Reiki. I never thought so much about it. We had our own community of healers and spiritual people in DC who were African American because we were just relating to one another. But as I moved forward and I began teaching in Beaufort, South Caroline, [this changed.] South Carolina is actually a part of the Bible belt of the south. It was very interesting. Then, in 2000, I was very low-key about Reiki. There had been a lot of [bad] press around that time from the Southern Baptist and from the Catholic church about Reiki and it not being as sanctified as we know it to be. So, I didn't really speak much about being a Reiki teacher at that time, except I [when] was practicing massage. Some of the massage therapists in town knew. And my first student there in Beaufort, South Carolina, was a massage therapist from a family that has the biggest tomato business in our county. They still do. They just send out a lot of tomatoes everywhere.

I've been blessed because of how I look, Nathalie. I am not attached to any of it. This is just the divine plan that was created before I got here. For me to serve in the way that is the easiest path.  Probably, therefore, I will attract to myself many people of color who are African American, but not only them. I've taught so many people! I can't even tell you! And of all races! But in rural South Carolina, and people now are traveling to stay with me to learn. I have an Airbnb, so I have room for people. I've taught Reiki for cakes, for vegetables as an exchange. When there is an openness from anyone in my community, I want to say yes, you can be Reiki in whatever way we can make that happen.

I worked in mental health with youth for 10 years. There were teenagers that I worked with whom I attuned. Particularly a couple of young women who were pregnant and who were going to have babies. I was sharing Reiki with them, and it just made sense that they would become Reiki for their babies, for themselves, for their mental health, for their birthing experience. Oneness is so dear [to me]. It's one of my highest vibrations of me. I'm grateful that I live and that from that place of love and non-duality, and no separation to be able to serve those folks who look like me. Who feel comfortable [with me.] Because, as we know, at our level of evolution and growth, we will turn to go to people who we feel comfortable with and who we feel simpatico with. So, it's been a blessing for me.

As I shared earlier, my intention for teaching Reiki is to reawaken the truth of who we are inside of ourselves. For me, trauma healing begins inside. If we are attuned to Reiki and are carrying that Reiki energy in us, then the work has begun in healing, whatever traumas we are aware of.

DIR: This is so great because often, the communities who could benefit more from Reiki in a country where healthcare is so expensive are the ones who are less exposed to it. I believe you were requesting some grants to spread that work.

IF: Yes. I've been researching and having other research for me. I am particularly interested in grants that will support myself and other Reiki masters in attuning women of color, particularly young women. Now there are a lot more grants out to address particular challenges in the black community. And because I [am] a doula… I support a lot of women in my community who are doulas and midwives. We're all very familiar with the challenges of death rates of women of color [in childbirth] in our country, particularly in our state. We're one of the highest. So [I'm looking for] grants to work either from the doula side, or just for attuning women to become Reiki practitioners so that they can [share with] themselves, first, and then their families and their community. That's the reason why I'm actively engaged in researching funding.

DIR: Reiki can be translated as ancestral energy, and you perform a beautiful ritual with the Atlantic Ocean that has to do with that concept. Could you please share it with our listeners?
IF: I daily go to the beach, which is seven miles from my house. One day, soon after I moved to Beaufort when I was in meditation, it came to me that one of my purposes for being here is to go to the ocean and to send Reiki to the Atlantic Ocean. To the path of the slave trade from Western Africa and other parts of Africa to particularly South Carolina, which was the hub of the slave trade in America. So, every day as that is my practice. I send Reiki to that passage and to all the souls, including those folks who owned the boats and everybody involved. I send my love, my healing energy, my Reiki energy. And that's my contribution, you know? It's a calling. I don't have any other words to say it.

DIR: It's beautiful. When I was in Japan, the priest always told me, you don't sit just by yourself. You sit with all your ancestors. We are born into our personas for a reason. In my case, there is probably a lot of WWII trauma. I find it very beautiful that we can clear that energy that we carry from hundreds of years.
IF: To me, Nathalie, it's not hard, it's not that difficult, particularly if you carry Reiki. It's just another way of extending love—love is healing—and connect with our hearts. To connect to another energy, which is what trauma is. It's all energy. So we simply extend and expand the love and the Reiki from ourselves to bless whatever situations need to be blessed. So I'm grateful.

I want to go back a little bit to when you were talking about activism. Frans, to me, is a major activist in his way. He's so the inspiration. You are also in your way. Those of us who are out there, in whatever way, sharing this practice. Sharing Reiki is activism to me. I'm a child of the sixties and seventies. I was an activist and civil rights fighter. I was marching. I had a big Afro. That's my core—a big part of my spirit. This is a gift: to be able to be Reiki and to be an activist for love and oneness in the world.

 DIR: In a world where most Reiki practitioners are trained in 8-hour classes, what do you think about holding the space to healing trauma without any further training in this area? What advice would you give new Reiki practitioners interested in this area?
IF: You know, I'm a "simplist." I don't know if that's a word; I just made it up. I'm all about simplicity. About what is simple. And to me, energy is simple. Energy is basic. As I speak with my students or clients, I always bring it back to the basics—we're working with energy. And in this case, we're working with energy that has become frozen or stuck because of whatever the situation is at that time. There was fear that happened could not be metabolized, so could not be released. We don't have to program [Reiki] to address this or does that. I might speak out in public about addressing trauma, but I will work the same way with someone who comes, whatever they present. I will speak to them and give back to them the same words they gave me so that we will be in oneness and communication, but my practice is going to be the same.

I've had mental health background work and worked with women's health. As a massage therapist, there are some layers of knowledge I have about the body, about emotions, and about energy and how it shows up in us. But if you are a beginner, you don't need to have that. You want to just be in yourself and be present with whom you are with. Be in compassion with what they bring you and share Reiki. We can feel it when there is a softening. We can feel when there's not a softening. We can feel when energy has begun to move. We can be aware of the energy that's not moving. We can comfortably stay in that place and know that we are addressing whatever is being asked to be addressed without worry. And if we're interested in trauma, then there are books that we can read. There are beautiful works out there now that talk about trauma in ways that anyone can understand. We can inform ourselves that way, but it's not necessary. My belief is that we're Reiki, and we show up with Reiki. Reiki has its own intelligence, and it will do what it is here to do.

DIR: I love that: just place your hands. It's that simple. No need to analyze which chakra is off balance or to release specific trauma.  I feel we make it more complicated because we're afraid that just simple protocols are never enough.
IF: That has been a beautiful challenge, I believe, for Reiki practitioners and teachers throughout my experience with Reiki. Because of the simplicity and because we don't have to know a lot, we often feel that we are not doing enough, we're not giving enough, and we are not contributing enough. And nothing could be farther from the truth. Reiki is so profound and strong and powerful. We are contributing, and we don't have to know what has happened. We know we are one with our true selves as we sit with a person and surrender all that we are into the present moment in time. And share from our hearts and our hands. And know that as we continue and grow to own personal practices, Nathalie, we will know without a doubt, without having to have feedback, we will know that we're enough. We have given enough. And it's all good.

DIR: I always tell my students, "Keep practicing, because one day it switches, and you know it's enough." It doesn't take two weeks. For some people, it comes very fast; for others, like me, it may take years. Now I'm going to ask you another question that I ask everybody: what your biggest Reiki oops was, something that could be labeled as a "mistake" but gave you significant learning or insight into your practice. 
IF: That's a great question. For real, there are no mistakes, [But before] I was of the consciousness early on in my practice of "not enough." As massage therapists… we are moving, touching, and shaking, and whatever. And then you come to share Reiki. In the beginning, it's like, "Okay, how am I going to make sure this person feels that they have received?" I wanted to make sure they felt that they received something from me just as they felt when I gave them a massage.

It took quite a while for me to get out of my head and accept that I am one with Reiki. I am sharing Reiki, and I don't have to do Reiki. I don't have to force Reiki. I don't have to expect a certain outcome of experience from the person I shared it with. So yeah, that took a while. And I can't say to you when it shifted. I'm feeling that for that particular challenge, my practice was to continue to come in, continue to be present, and to sit as opposed to giving and doing.

I'm a big giver. That's another part of my learning: [to stop] the overboard of giving. In a lot of ways in my Reiki practice, even giving more time than was necessary. Giving more just because I wanted those people to have a certain experience.

Since meeting Frans and since really growing in my own daily practices of sitting and being present, being still, of the breathwork—all of that has shifted things enormously in the last two years. So, [I focus] my personal practice of being Reiki, being Reiki, being Reiki—and all these other pieces [or need to give more] will not be necessary. They will not even be a part of our consciousness of thoughts.

DIR: I think, honestly, this is the best advice because probably 99% of practitioners struggle exactly with that, especially when they start charging. The way I dealt with it was to do my homework every day, and I go to the session having done so, then it made it easier to let go of worry during the session. It was like, "Okay, I can only control what I can control, which is my self-practice. And if I do my self-practice and I go from a state of mind of love and compassion, all will be fine."
IF: Exactly. And those of us who practice, we get exactly what you're saying. One of the things that also shifted with me since studying and meditating with Frans and all my reading [was that he pointed to] the practice of oneness, of no separation.

Before I knew that, I got that. But in the last two years and being with COVID for a whole year really shifted [the practice for me.] The practice of there is only one of us here. There is no separation. There is no distance. There is no time. And so, this has informed my practice with people, particularly distance healing, which I never did much of before, because there were so many people in my world that I shared Reiki in person. But because of the pandemic, the distance healing requests grew.

My love of distance healing now has just expanded. The capacity to practice "no distance, no separation, no time" has given me so much joy. And [although I didn't need the feedback] everyone has shared with me that the experience of the receiver has been profound coming from that place of me sitting in that place of no distance, no separation, no time. And in my own daily practice, strengthening and supporting that. I'm in love with that. I'm in love with oneness.

DIR: I love how you still have so much joy in your practice after so many years!
IF: As I'm sitting in this space with you, I'm just realizing that [before] I was a doula, a massage therapist, a Reiki master teacher practitioner… I was doing all of that at one time. Depending on how many births I had a month, it determined how many clients I could take for Reiki. Now it's all Reiki. I do nothing else, except when folks invite me to present on some larger platforms, but [even then] Reiki is underneath it all. I might be talking about healing or birthing, but for me, Reiki is under all of it. I love this shift now. It's nothing but Reiki for me now.

I only am teaching all the time, and I share Reiki, not as much but somewhat, with folks in person and a lot at distance sessions. I mentor people who call and want to talk [about] their growth and transformation. I usually combine the hour with some distance healing Reiki too. As you spoke, Nathalie, that just dawned on me that this is all I'm doing right now. My whole life has shifted. And I am writing a book on Reiki, and one day that will complete my personal offering to the world.

DIR: I'm the first person to buy that book! Since you and Frans love each other so much, he has kindly agreed to join the conversation.
FRANS STIENE: For me, [Ifetayo], you really are my role model. I will be 55 this year, and I think, "Wow, at your age, you're still teaching, you're still are…in the zest of life, you still enjoy life so much… the beauty of life, the playfulness and laughter of life. You still have so much passion… not just for the system of Reiki, but for life itself.

That, for me, is what the system of Reiki is really. As you were discussing, we don't need to add anything to it. We don't need to invent a new system. We need to actually realize that simplicity [is powerful] and owning that simplicity. That the beauty of life can really be tasted and felt.

 IF: Absolutely, totally. I love it. And I agree so much with you. And that's what love [being] friends. We just laugh all the time. We [are] playful, and that's for me is life. And that is Reiki. That is the energy of healing, love, and joy.

DIR: Now I have a new goal. I want to like to practice with both of you together in the city! Ifetayo, before we end this interview, I want to ask if there is anything that I missed that you want to add?
IF:  I must just share that for Reiki practitioners to find a meditation practice [is] crucial—it is so necessary for our support to support ourselves and our own health as we practice and teach. Meditate, breathe, meditate. Those are the magic words.

DIVE INTO REIKI: Today, I have an exceptional guest, Paul Mitchell. I met Paul when we were on a panel for Reiki Home and I was really impressed by the depth of his practice and his kindness. So, we connected, and he kindly agreed to come today to talk about his practice. 
Paul's education was in philosophy and theology, and his early work was in religious education teaching in San Francisco. He met Hawayo Takata and studied level 1 with her in 1978. He became one of the 22 masters initiated by Takata in 1979.
In 1992 he was recognized as Head of the Discipline of Usui Shiki Ryoho. Together with Lineage Bearer Phyllis Furumoto created the Office of the Grandmaster responding to the community call to define the system received from their teacher, Hawayo Takata. Since that time, he has traveled to over 25 countries supporting the Reiki community in their practice and development. Paul, thank you so much for joining me today.
PAUL MITCHELL: Oh, you're very welcome. I'm happy to be with you.

DIR: I wanted to start with your origin story, the first time you encountered Reiki practice. 
PM: Okay. As you mentioned, I was teaching religion in a Catholic boy's school. One of my co-teachers had a flyer for a conference on holistic health. He said, "We should go to this." I was trying to wrap my brain around why as a religion teacher, I should go to this. But it was intriguing. And so I went, he didn't. It was the beginning in the early seventies of the holistic health movement. So, a lot of the luminaries were speakers. There were about a thousand people in attendance. What touched me, actually, was the personal stories of well-known healthcare people, psychologists, psychiatrists, doctors whose personal lives were a mess. And then they had some spiritual awakening, and it totally changed their relationship to their work with other people in healing professions.
So, I was driving home and thinking, "Oh, there's something here for me," but I had no idea what it was. I was in a master's program in education. I never went to see my advisor. I just took courses that looked interesting. And so, I was looking at the catalog for the summer session, and there was a course in holistic health and self-regulation. So, I said, "Well, okay, that's it." So, I went to this course put together by Dr. George Araki, a biologist at San Francisco State University. And he had started a little mini department called interdisciplinary studies in science, and their hidden agenda was bringing the scientific method to bear on healing. So, this course was like just the potpourri of what was going on. We had lots of guest speakers.
We practiced a little yoga, we learned about autogenic training and biofeedback. We did some Tai Chi and meditation. Learned about Ayurvedic medicine and a bit of Native American medicine, just all kinds of things. One day the guest speaker was Hawayo Takata. She walked into the room. She was very short, I think under five feet, and very bright and energetic. Dressed nicely. She began talking, telling her story of how she came to Reiki. She told us a bit of what Reiki was. She was a great storyteller. I was just mesmerized. And then she said at the end, "Well if people are interested, I can come back and teach you Reiki." I found my hand in the air and put down my contact information. 
I was driving home after this class, and I thought, Oh, this is what I've been looking for." And then I was confused because I didn't know I was looking for something! So I went home and told my wife about it, and she wanted to take the class too. So we took the class in Dr. Araki's home. He's Japanese American. We white folks were a minority. It was mostly the Japanese community taking the classes at that time. We just had a lovely time. He opened his house to us every Thursday if we wanted to come and practice together. So we did that, and that was having that kind of instant community. I don't know if you can imagine 1978 and the word Reiki, which nobody knew!

DIR: Even 10 years ago, most people didn't know much about Reiki!
PM: So that little community really held me because it was just strange, right? But I had such absolute trust in my teacher, and, looking back, I would say she was really the first master that I ever met. So, I just put myself in her hands and trusted her teaching and trusted her faith in me. You know, it's like, "How can I do this? And I'm not my teacher." And she communicated to me that I could, and I should. So I did.

DIR: I think that doubt you had is familiar to most people who start training in the Reiki system. In a prior conversation about Mrs. Takata, you mentioned something that struck my mind: she gave you everything you needed to practice without fear. Can elaborate about that, both as a student and as a teacher since you have been one for over 40 years. 
PM: I'll have to tell you when I was driving to the class what was going through my mind was, "I'm sure everybody in the class will be able to do this, but not me. And if there's some special experience to be had, everybody else will have it, but not me." So that was my mental attitude going into the class, which. Certainly, it said a lot about me as a person at that time. And I didn't have any special experience in the class other than being in her presence. So with that, I went home just wanting to put my hands on anybody who would allow me. It didn't matter what the situation was. I felt totally free to do that. And that's when I realized she gave me everything I needed to not be afraid.
She gave me the confidence that I had this connection with Reiki, that it would come through my hands. I had that as a basis. Secondly, that I could do no harm with Reiki. That I didn't have to know anything other than a relatively simple set of hand positions and that sometimes there could be what we would call unpleasant reactions to treatment. And that was okay. I connected it with what I heard as a child growing up. Sometimes things have to get worse before they get better. I don't know if she said those words, but [I made] that connection with my experience.
I mean, I love it when I give a treatment and the person just blisses out and becomes totally relaxed. I love that. And at the same time, I've treated people who got very emotional, wept, got afraid, had experiences, or greater physical pain. And I was able to hold the space for the person.
Let's just take pain as an example. Treating a shoulder because the person has a chronic shoulder problem, and when I treat it, it hurts more. I see that that's happening: their eyes are getting a little big or something. So I say, "Well, how does that feel?" "I'm feeling more pain." "Okay, so that's good because your body is really taking in the Reiki, and it's okay. If it's too intense for you and want me to stop, I'll pull my hands from this position and work around it. But if you can be with it, it's going to be good." 
Often at the end of treating that position, when I take my hands away, it feels better than it ever has for a long time. Those experiences with Hawayo Takata gave me a way to hold, let me be comfortable, and then communicate that to the person I'm treating.

DIR: It brings to mind the Reiki Precept, "Do not worry." But we always worry in sessions. You said that with her presence as a teacher, she already gave you everything you needed. That is such a beautiful statement. But she also made you practice a lot. According to you, she was a little bit of a drill Sergeant. Can you talk about the importance of practice?
 PM: I learned afterward that her way of teaching was very Japanese. You go to the master and just pay attention. She gave no written materials. All of us Americans showed up with our notebooks, and she said, "Put them away. No notes, watch my hands." You had to be present. 
She communicated mostly energetically. It just went in. She was open to questions, but she taught this beginning class to the sense of what the beginning student needs to know? So if somebody came up with some experience was maybe kind of out there, she just said, "Oh, fantasy," and, "Practice, practice, practice." She said that all the time, three times: "Practice, practice, practice." The first evening she taught us how to treat ourselves. She would say, "Reiki is, first of all, for yourself, treat yourself every day and then naturally your family and your friends and anybody else who comes to you." But that was the order. 
[I had tried other] things for a while that were very interesting, but they always dropped away. But after my first year of having my first degree, I looked back and realized that I had treated myself every single day. One of her teachings was, "Reiki will teach you." Well, it was clear to me that the learning environment, the classroom of Reiki teaching, was when I was doing Reiki for myself, for others.
She defined Reiki as universal life energy or God power. Universal life energy was just a concept for me. God power I kind of got because I was having a lot of religious upbringings. That landed. But both grew on me. This is the energy of life, and it's not like I didn't have it. Everything is filled with life energy. It's not like Reiki is a new thing. It's just our awareness of it. That was part of the new thing of learning Reiki: "Oh, I have a conscious relationship with the energy of life." I put my hands on myself and another. In those relationships with self, with others, receiving treatment from others that the intimacy of connection with what Reiki was offering me grew and grew and grew and grew.

DIR: One thing that you said right now is that Reiki is a system to grow our conscious connection with universal energy. I think many people see Reiki as a type of energy and there is a lot of discussions like Reiki is not so powerful. There are more powerful energies. So what will you say to people who have this approach?
DM: It's a complicated question for me because what do I really know? What I really know is my experience and how I interpret my experience. Of course, there are all kinds of energies. Nuclear energy is very powerful. It has benefits and lots of destructive potentials. I know there are all kinds of levels of energy, but my experience from the very beginning, is that Reiki is the energy of life. I learned it as life energy. And at some point, I also speak about it as the energy of life. From whatever the source of that energy is. Who knows? Maybe it is eternal from a Buddhist perspective. Maybe it was created at some point from a Christian Judeo-Christian tradition. But for me, it is the energy of life, and it's also this energy of connection. I can put my hands on anything and feel the energy. So part of that for me is like, yes, this is the core of all of life. This is the stuff of life on the energetic level. 
So, you know, [less] powerful, more powerful… those are interesting questions for a while. But, for me, they're not so interesting. Because for me, Reiki put me on a life path. What kind of path? Let's say a healing path. Well, what is healing? So, you work that question over and over and over again. I live with that question. What is healing? I go back to the Greek root, and it [means] wholeness. Okay. Wholeness. Well, what does it mean in my human being-ness to be whole? Well, there are lots of theories about that. And there are spiritual traditions that focus right on that: what does the meaning and purpose of your life? Why are you here? What are you working towards? 
But my experience of Reiki is that it constantly, in a way, awakens me to the essence of what it means to be human. In a sense, it constantly asks this question to me, "Oh, who do you need to become to manifest that essence more clearly? More authentically? And we have the Reiki principles that give us guidelines for that. The principles have nothing to do with anybody else. They're all about how do I live in my body? How do I live in my mind? How do I live in my spirit? How do I live in a relationship? Reiki is all about relationships for me. Why am I so happy that my teacher said, "First of all, Reiki is for you to treat yourself"? Because it [constantly brings] me to a much more intimate understanding of myself. Yeah. So, you know, what do I need to heal? Well, sometimes it's my body. And sometimes it's my mental, emotional state. And sometimes, it's my spiritual self that needs healing, which is basically wholeness, just to get to the essence. What does life energy want to offer in this time in history my world, through this unique gift of Paul Mitchell? Recognizing that every other human being is also a gift. So Reiki is this path for me to wholeness. 
In the Reiki world, we love this word transformation. Who doesn't want to be healed instantly? Who doesn't want to be transformed instantly into some luminous being?

DIR: That was the reason I took my first class!
PM: Right. But it's a journey. Mrs. Takata used to say, "Reiki will go to the root of the problem." One of her masters who passed away a few years ago, Shinobu Sato, was very Japanese. She was born in America, went back to Japan, grew up into her twenties in Japan, then came back to America. She was in Hiroshima when the bomb dropped. She would say, "Mrs. Takata always said Reiki will go to the root of the problem." And she's right. And sometimes it takes one treatment. Sometimes it takes a lifetime. And she just practiced. For me, it's not that it takes a lifetime to solve a problem. That's not what I understood. It's a lifetime of unfolding. That's the journey. This constant unfolding of who we are here to be. I'm happy with how far I've gotten. I'll be 75 soon. But I also say I have a long way to go.

Reiki Master Paul Mitchell.

DIR: I love that you keep a beginner's mind. When I talk to people who have a profound practice like you, there is always a joy and excitement that we can always go deeper, right? That this is just a journey. I think when we start, we are obsessed with shadow work and fixing. So when you say trust Reiki to go to the root, I feel like we need to let go of the problem and just practice and trust. 
PM: At the same time, I'm really good at analysis! [Laughs.] Reiki will teach you. I don't know if I heard her say this, but it became clear to me that it's like, "Let Reiki teach you." So, part of the process is I pay attention. What am I learning? Okay. Learning isn't enough. I've got to practice what I've learned. 
One of the things I discovered in my early days was that [I had the idea that] I was a good person. Well, one of the things Reiki taught me was I was also a very angry person. But I had that so well hidden that it only came out in my humor, which was mostly sarcastic. So, okay, like just for today, "Do not anger." Oh, oh! I just learned I'm an angry person. Well, I can't deny that. I have to take the journey through understanding myself, but, first of all, I have to be able to know that I'm angry, know how to respond to anger, know the tricky ways I can be to express anger. I can be passive-aggressive really beautifully. That's getting better also! [Laughs], but it took me years to understand what the aggressive part was. I was really good at disappearing. You hurt me. Okay. Bye-bye, not available. I had to own that part of myself. I had to embrace that part of myself to be able to choose, to be different step by step, not be reactive, not being knee-jerk. But actually, to find that space where I can choose to say, "Oh, what's underneath my anger? Oh, I'm scared. Oh, I'm hurt. Oh, what's underneath that?" So that I can actually become the way I would really like to be. 

 DIR: It gives you the gift of acceptance. I was talking to my students recently, telling them that one day I was meditating, and I realized I'm not a good person. but he wasn't like, "Oh, how dreadful!" It was actually a relief. Like, "Oh, I'm not a good person. It's okay. Right. Some days I'm angry. Some days I worry. And some days, I'm not the nicest person that I can be." I'm a lot better than I used to be. But there was no drama to this realization. I was holding the space. I was practicing. It was like, "Oh, I better work on myself a lot more," and that's it.
PM: When I first started doing Reiki, I saw myself as a wounded person. In fact, I saw myself as tragically flawed. "I'm wounded, and there's no hope." I was fine, but, in the heart of hearts, needing to be good and to do what you want so that I would receive your love because there was this empty place in me, you know? And in Reiki, I experienced those moments of just being whole, I touched my innate wholeness and, therefore, lovableness, and that touching really gave me the courage to do the shadow work. That's the dance. And it's a wonderful dance.

DIR: It also gets you out of the head and into the mind-heart, which is a different space. But as you said, practice, practice, practice. And I love when we had the pre-interview, I asked you, "What can we do to make our practice juicier and not get bored? And you basically put me back into my place. Like sometimes it's not going to be juicy. We just need to practice. And you said something beautiful: if you don't stick to your practice when nothing happens, like then maybe you shouldn't be teaching—if you are a teacher. So can you elaborate a bit on those moments when practice feels flat and the need to stick to it?
PM: Well, one of the things that helps me is to realize that I live in a world of mystery. There are so many things I don't understand. Mostly because there were kind of beyond my capacity to understand at any given moment. My wife and I have been together for almost 50 years now. I can still discover new things about her. Some time ago, she expressed an interest in something. And she said I've been interested in this for 20 years. I never knew that.
It's also true of myself. We are an amazing creation, and part of our being is unknown potential. You put some seeds in the ground, and they sprout right away. You put some other seeds in the ground, and you have to wait for 30 years till there's a forest fire or something for that seed to grow. In a way, that's a great analogy for all of us. 
Let's use the boring word. "Oh, why should I treat myself? It's just boring!" I have a good friend of mine who had a child later in life. She was a single mom, and she got to the stage where the kid was always saying, "It's boring, it's boring." And she just says, "You are boring! Look at all the potential you really have. You are bored? It's not my job; fix it." I thought, "Wow, that was a great teaching moment." I can apply that to myself. If I'm bored, what's underneath that? Some expectation that things should be different. Well, I'm not four years old anymore, although I can still act like that sometimes. When I'm treating myself, [from my experience], I know that something is happening. I don't need to feel it. 
You know, the cell phone is part of this [need for] instant gratification. I get to know anything I want right now. Right now! Well, it's a technological advancement, but maybe we're regressing into our instant gratification-hood. But it's deeper than that. We're filled with this incredible potential still, but we have to keep doing our work. We need the silence. We need the hands-on. We need the acceptance that Reiki is working in us for whatever our next steps are. It's okay not to know them. They're not only what we want. If we want to know that part of ourselves, you got to do a practice that allows that to be. If juiciness is what drives you, you probably won't practice.

DIR: That makes a lot of sense. It's going back to the trust you were saying, right? In my first years of practice, I was really like, "Oh, this doesn't work." Now there is trust. Sometimes I know that the answer may come in months or years, but it will happen. Trusting the process is such an essential part of surrendering to the practice. 
I have another question for you, totally changing gears because you gave me so much great material during the pre-interview. I always say Reiki is deceptively simple, but you came up with another way of saying that I love: Reiki is a single practice filled with paradoxes. For example, regarding the hands-on healing protocol: keep placing your hands in precisely the same positions and let Reiki guide you. Can you elaborate on that?
PM: Yeah. I realized why Takata introduced me to paradox. Because she would say, "Watch my hands, do it like this." She had this drill Sergeant kind of presence, as well as being warm and joyful. She was the master, right. And [then added] Reiki guides you. Some people would find that confusing. I wasn't smart enough at the time to be confused. I was in the zone of total trust and the energy that she created in that class. It was a sacred space. What she was imparting, most of it was energetic. Yet, she gave us this very simple practice that could bring us back to that energetic any time.
At that point, I was like, "Okay, this is how my teacher does practice treatments." So, I did that. I met Hawayo Takata when she had Reiki for over 40 years. She taught Reiki, but mostly she practiced Reiki. She treated people all the time—long-term and short-term. She was a master practitioner. So, it's like, "Oh, okay, I'm going to lean into this. Why should I think that I can come up with something better?" So, I followed the practice. In that process of sinking into the discipline, being held by the discipline, and surrendering more to this flow of this relationship, sometimes my hands wanted to go someplace else. And then I would go my little argument within, and then eventually it just became natural. It's like, "Okay, let's see what this brings. Oh, that was interesting." And then my discipline was, "Okay, let's not generalize. "This is a good position for everybody! Well, no!" It's a natural inclination, right? 
I'll tell you a little story about that. I was doing a lot of treatments, and the throat was not a basic position. It was an additional position. But like three people I was treating in a row, my hands wanted to go to their throat. So, I did. The next first-degree class I taught, what do you think I did? I just unconsciously added it as a basic position. Ten years later, I'm doing a workshop with masters in Spain with Phyllis. We're demonstrating the basic positions, and the whole room is horrified. 25 or 30 Reiki masters horrified. "The throat! Why is it the throat?" It took me about 30 seconds to connect the lines. One of my students, who took my first degree and became a Reiki master with Phyllis, went to Spain and taught for years in Spain and passed on what I taught in first degree. So I got a great lesson in humility and said, "I know what the problem is. It was me."
It was a great lesson, but the form is always there, and the form has integrity, but it's not the whole story. We live in this wonderful creative tension. For me, that's the essence of paradox. The opposite of an ordinary fact is a lie. But the opposite of a profound truth is often another profound truth. So, here's the practice, here's the form. Do it. And we're not limited to that. It's bigger than that. It's bigger than us. So, follow your hands, let Reiki guide you, and pay attention. Be in the moment. 

DIR: I love that you repeat, pay attention, be present. It's the core of the Reiki precepts: Just for today, for this moment, this breath. And yes, we need to do those hands position, not just with the hands, but with our whole being. 
I have one last question. We're evolving Reiki practice, and the number of practitioners is multiplying. You have said that your mission is to carry Mrs. Takata's teachings with a lot of respect. Can you talk a bit about that? How can we carry the teachings with respect, and how do we balance them with adapting them to current times?
PM: I'll speak personally and also maybe philosophically. When I learned Reiki and when I became a master, master felt kind of a big word. Right. In fact, when I had my little business cards, I put Reiki teacher. Because I got no concept [of being a] master in comparison to my teacher, right? But Phyllis challenged me. So, in the next card, I put Reiki master in parentheses. I realized that I'm not a master in anything, but when I step into a class, I have been given what I need to pass on this art. So, in that class, I am a master. That was very helpful to me. 
It was also my experience that I would be in a different place, totally supported by the energy of Reiki in that particular role as a teacher. It was clear to me that I was a carrier of a tradition. I wasn't the author, so I didn't have the authority to add things, which of course, I did, mostly out of insecurity. I like to say that the class Hawayo Takata taught was very simple, giving you exactly what you needed to be a practitioner. I added things to make it more clear: metaphysical causes of illness and a little bit of Chinese medicine that I knew about. 
At one point, I woke up and said, look at what you're doing. I took all those things out and went back to the very practice as I learned it. I took away all those things so that the practice would be clear—same motivation. I come back to the same place of teaching the tradition that I am a carrier. In our evolution, we said, "Well, what is a master?" A master is an initiator, a teacher, and a mentor…Oh, and a student. Always a student of Reiki. And then eventually, after 25 years of practice, I said, "Oh, you know what, we're tradition keepers. That's what we're doing."
What's the essence of tradition? The essence of tradition is you take something that is so precious to the life experience that you want to pass on because it's important that it'd be passed on to the next generations. That's the essence of tradition. It's not some dead thing. There's a German composer, Mahler, who says that tradition is not the worship of ashes. It's maintaining the flame. So that's the role that I felt was mine.
Of course, Reiki is going to teach me. And one of the things I learned as a master was to make a distinction between your personal practice [and teaching.] When I'm with one person doing a treatment, whatever Reiki leads me to, I do. As a teacher, I give the practice in its simple, profound essence. A colleague of mine heard from a shaman, "As a shaman, working with the person, I am free to follow that particular moment in time. When I'm training another shaman, it's exactly the same." 
As Americans, we have been accused of having no traditions. Our gift is creativity, but it's like everything needs to be in balance. One of the holistic health luminaries who wrote a book called "Health is a question of balance." Life changes. So, how does our practice evolve in relationship to meeting life as it changes? Evolution is different from change. We change and change. [Laughs] Evolution is what lasts. It's what really still contains the essence that keeps living. But our perspective is too short. I want to be mindful, so I make difficult choices. So, COVID, how do I treat people? Well, I can treat people distantly. Are there situations where I can put my hands on someone? But what care do I need to take? Teaching. People do online teaching. I don't, I wouldn't. 
What I learned from [Hawayo Takata] was anyone can do Reiki. She was happy to teach any person Reiki, but she had no need to teach any specific person Reiki. She needed you to step up to meet her. There was a fee for the first degree. She taught it over four consecutive days. You had to commit that time. You had to commit that money. And you know, people would say, "I really want to do this, but I don't have the money." She said, "Do you smoke? Do you go out to dinner? Well, don't. Save that money. And the next time I come, you'll have the money to take Reiki." She had a kind of innate sense of what being a student should demand.

DIR: For the people who are not aware, you actually paid $10,000 for your Reiki master. And that was in 1979. So this will be equivalent to like 50 thousand versus sometimes paying $30 for the master attunement. So it's a beautiful commitment to your practice.
PM: Yeah. I didn't have that money! I didn't own anything that was that valuable, you know. And she let me pay it over time because she knew that, and she wanted me to have it at that point. But, my commitment was there, and it was fulfilled. If you look at the Tao Te Ching, it's all about the 10,000 things. The 10,000 things are the symbol for everything. So, the $10,000—I have no idea if this came from her or her teacher or whatever—but it's a connection that works for me. 
What you're saying is, when you have first degree, you have everything you need to be a lifetime practitioner. If you're called, you take second degree. But because it's your soul's calling, not because you think, "Oh, I don't have enough." You want to be a Reiki master? Okay. What does Reiki master do? Basically, he commits his life to the practice and teaches. Symbolically $10,000 [means,] "I'll give everything. This is my path." It's different today in terms of the world of Reiki, and that's okay. I wouldn't take away from my students that level of stepping forward. I wouldn't. And I'm not critical of others who have a different experience. Human beings change things. That's what we do. Especially in this country, because that's who we are.

DIR: That's a great way to close the interview: We move levels because we're called to, not because we feel we don't have enough. Thank you so much, Paul.
 PM: Thank you!

DIVE INTO REIKI: Frank Arjava Petter is a world-renowned Reiki historian and teacher. Based in Greece, he travels worldwide, lecturing and teaching Jikiden Reiki workshops. He is a Dai Shihan in Jikiden Reiki and vice-president of the Jikiden Reiki Association founded by Tadao Yamaguchi in Kyoto, Japan.
His spiritual journey started at a very young age with meditation, spending 7 years practicing with Osho. Later, he moved to Japan and began teaching Reiki there in 1993.
He is the best-selling author of Reiki Fire, Reiki, the Legacy of Dr. Usui, The Original Reiki Handbook of Dr. Mikao Usui, co-author of The Spirit of Reiki, Reiki Best Practices, The Hayashi Reiki-Manual, Reiki ganz Klar, This is Reiki, and One with Reiki. Frank, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us.
FRANK ARJAVA PETTER: Thank you very much, Nathalie. It's a pleasure. I love talking to people. Like all of us—all of you listeners and we included—[what] I miss the most is the contact with people. The one-on-one contact, the hands-on contact. But we have the technology to at least keep in touch like this, and I appreciate it.

DIR:  Agree! I wish we could this in person. Hopefully, we'll do it soon. You have a fascinating origin story because you started your spiritual search young. Can you talk about your first experiences?
FAP: I'm not like a lot of people who are into spirituality and will say, "Oh, you know, I remember when I was three years old, and suddenly, I saw the light." Not at all. For me, it started when I was around 15, 16 [years old.] I started reading books on Zen, which I liked very much. I hated school, so, in my mind, after school, I was not going to go to university. I was going to go to Japan, enter a Zen monastery, and never be seen again. Ever. That was my secret plan, but of course, it became completely different. 
About the same time, I went on vacation to Brittany, France, with my parents. I remember one day sitting on the beach was in the spring break. There were no tourists there, and you had like miles of to your left miles of beach to the right. There was nobody. And I just see this dog from, I don't know, two miles away. A big white kind of retriever or something. And he comes to me like dogs do: he walks on the beach, going left, going right, sniffing here and there. But he went straight for me. I stretched out my arm, and he sniffed my hand. I looked at the dog, and I thought, I want to be like this: straightforward, fearless, and tender. 
A couple of years later, my parents and I got some letters from my brother who had gone to India overland from Germany and ended up with Osho, who, at the time, was the antichrist for everybody. There was very bad press about him everywhere. Whatever you heard or saw was just horrendous. We thought, "Oh, my God, my older brother has gone nuts. We got to do something about it!" So, my parents decided to send me there just to check up on him. to take a look. To see if he was okay. If he was okay, fair enough. If he wasn't okay, try and persuade him to come home and leave all of this craziness behind. I went to India to the Osho ashram in March 1979. I took one step into that place, and I thought, "I don't ever want to go anywhere else ever again." That's how [my journey] really started. At the time, I was 18. It hit me hard.
Ever since that moment, my sole viewpoint in life is spiritual development. For me in the first few years, and then—after I started teaching in the early and mid-nineties—also for my students. This is what I'm concerned with: spiritual growth. People waking up with me. Waking me up. Being present, showing people how to be present, how to deal with themselves, and how to live a beautiful contented, happy, conscious, and peaceful life.
This is my whole purpose, but at the same time, I am not out there in space. Thinking only about all these things. I'm a super simple person, very simple-minded. I'm here living in a small Greek village with about a thousand people, a very traditional place. It's super easy. I love everybody. The people like me, we can talk about the weather, about potatoes. We can talk about nothing at all. We can have a glass of whiskey together. I'm really a very simple-minded person. 
My intention is to do everything in life with a spiritual attitude. If you do a mundane thing with a spiritual attitude, it becomes like a prayer, a meditation, a celebration of life. And if you do something "spiritual" with a mundane attitude, it just becomes a waste of time.

DIR: I love that because when we practice Reiki, we have trouble accepting our "regular" life. We keep it separate versus seeing our everyday life as practice. The other thing we do is overcomplicating it. What is your perception of Reiki right now? 
FAP: Reiki is the simplest thing in life at all. I learned Reiki in 1992. I became a teacher in 1993 and started teaching after five, six months or so after I digested all of that. I thought Reiki was this complicated thing. Then seven years later, I came to my third Reiki teacher to Chiyoko Yamaguchi. When we asked her a complicated question, she always looked at us and said, "You think too much." Like a grandma would say to you and not like, somebody's arrogant from a place of "I know better than you, and you will learn one day when you're my age." Don't think so much. Reiki is such a simple thing. It's the simplest thing in the world. You know how it works? She said, "It goes like this: on [places his hand on his body], off [lifts his hand from the body]." That's all you need to know. Go out and touch people. There's nothing you need to do: no rituals, no prayers, no symbols, no nothing just: on, off. This is how I practice it. 
And this is how I practice it here in the village too. In all the Greek villages, at least the ones on the islands that I know of, people get nicknames. And they get them very quickly, but they stick…. My nickname in the village is the German doctor. This is how people see me. When somebody has an injury or feels sick, they come, and [my wife and I] treat them. We don't do anything spiritual, like talking about energy and all that. We go, Okay. Sit down or lay down and so on. And that's it. It's very simple. Reiki is very, very simple. I completely avoid all the esoteric stuff when I talk about it—not only with simple-minded villagers—but in general, because we don't need it. It's not necessary. 

DIR: Agree. Reiki is so simple, but that doesn't mean it's not deep. In Western culture, we often confuse simple with shallow or uninteresting, but Reiki has a lot of depth. Can you talk about that?
FAP: The only thing that really matters is what you have here now and what you have and what you are here and now. Just you, in your simplicity, breathing in, breathing out. That's it. Nothing else matters: tomorrow never comes; yesterday is gone. So, what have we got? We've got this moment. In this moment, we have a choice. Whether we want to spend this moment dreaming or being present. And Reiki is a wonderful tool to help you be present in this moment. All bodywork is like that, really, because touch anchors both the person who gives the treatment and the one who receives it in the present.

DIR: I love that concept of touch as an anchor. Often, we're touching to heal, to do something anchoring both of us in the moment. That is beautiful.
FAP: Yeah. Let's say somebody experienced something traumatic. You give them a hug. The more you hold them in your arms, the same thing happens. They immediately come to the present and maybe come out of their traumatic movement. They come back to the now. And when you're in the now, you're okay. 
Reiki brings you here. And when we are here, what problem do we have here? We don't have any problems. Problems are always either far ahead or far behind.

DIR: And when you're in the middle of a problem, you're present. You have to be.
FAP:  Right. For example, when you have an accident, suddenly everything turns into slow motion. You function perfectly. You do everything right. And then afterward, when it's finished…. [it's another thing.]
The first and foremost thing about Reiki is that it brings both the giver and the receiver into the present moment. And only in the present moment can things change. Things can happen.
The next thing people often get confused about is that they think, "Uh, this or that person is such a great healer!" Somebody asked me recently, "Who's the greatest healer on the planet at the moment?" And I said, "You know, I will tell you who it is. It's the human body. The human body is the greatest healer." 
It's not the Reiki person or the shaman, or someone else who does the healing. The body heals itself if it can. But there are obstacles to healing, and those must be removed. And this is what the Reiki person or the shaman does. He energizes the body so that those obstacles can be removed. In terms of Reiki, those obstacles are toxicity, and the removal happens by detoxing. The body begins to detox, and then healing happens if it's still possible.
When the time is up, the time is up. You can stand on your head; do all sorts of tricks, and it's not going to work. The important thing for us as Reiki [practitioners] to understand is that this is not our business. We're not here to decide who stays and who goes. We don't know what the situation for our client is. We know nothing. We may know that they have a certain illness, but we don't know why they have it. We don't know what purpose that may serve in the long run… You don't know where they are on their journey from ignorance to self-realization. And this is not for you to judge. All we do is place our hands on that person and trust that the healing will happen in due time. Whenever that might be.

DIR: I resonate very strongly with this. There is a lot of pressure on Reiki practitioners to "diagnose" or "read" the situation in some lineages. What advice will you give to a practitioner who feels they need to get the "healing" right?
FAP: In Jikiden Reiki, what we learned to do is called in Japanese byosen, the body's reaction to the incoming energy. We evaluate with the perception in our hands. So there's some kind of natural diagnosis happening, but it's not medical. And it's not that we look for it either. It's just perception the same way that you say, put your hand in the fridge, and you know that it's cold. You don't have to sit there and think, "Oh, I'm going to check the fridge from the inside and see what that temperature is." No, you just put your hand inside, and you know, "Uh, cold!" It's like that. 
From an Asian point of view, they would say your ego is not required in the work at all. Now, if we define this from an Oriental way, it becomes very uncomfortable. So, from a Western, let's say psychological understanding, maybe we think of ego as the negative aspects of our psycho-emotional selves. Arjava is egoistic. He thinks only of himself. He wants more and more money! He is like this. He is an a$#*!
From an Oriental point of view, because the Japanese are Buddhist and they believe in emptiness being the source of everything, they believe that there is no separate identity, no separate self. There is no ego. That ego is the only thing that doesn't exist. The only thing that is not [ego] is that spaciousness. That is your presence, that blue sky. Everything else is clouds passing in that blue sky. 
So, if I, during the treatment, go and do all sorts of stuff, the Japanese traditional Reiki practitioner would say, "Get the hell out of there. What are you doing there? This is not an ego trip here. You're supposed to just be emptying. Let that pass through you and leave it up to people upstairs." That's how they would look at it there. From a Japanese point of view, ego is everything that we would call "I." Everything that defines us has nothing to do with a Reiki treatment. You leave that outside.

DIR: Which is a practice per se—and it's hard! But the good news is that, in time, you start feeling a little bit of that. For me, emptiness also means inner spaciousness. We're so crammed with things, by creating the little space with meditation and Reiki practice is such a relief—because we always think of practitioners helping others, but we must start with ourselves. So, I love the concept of emptiness. 
Once we were talking about Osho, you mentioned something that I love. When I asked you how the Osho ashram was, you laughed at me because I imagined you attending like 300 orgies. And you're like, "Nathalie, every teacher is a mirror." Would you care to elaborate on the concept of the teacher as a mirror when it comes to Reiki?
FAP: Not only is the teacher a mirror, but everybody in every situation in life is a mirror. This pandemic situation is a mirror. Let's start here because we are all concerned with this at the moment. 
Let's say you have some fear of survival during the COVID situation; that's going to come up. If you have some unethical business ideas in the COVID situation, that will come up. Whatever there is inside, whatever is hiding under the surface will come up. It's like, you're looking at this thing all the time, and you see yourself. So, what is required of us to do is to be aware of what is happening: when you're being mirrored, when to be reflective, to look, not to judge.
If you're in the teacher's role, then, of course, that becomes vital. Because, first of all, you are mirroring your students, but they also mirror you. It's not one-way traffic. It's two mirrors looking at each other. Two pieces of emptiness looking at each other. That's an amazing thing. And it requires great awareness not to project anything into the other. You cannot ask your students to do this practice, but you can ask it of yourself, so you don't project into your students and don't bring them down. You don't force your worldview on them but give them space and encouragement to always reflect. To look at themselves, learn from all their clients, from all their friends, from all situations. This is the real job of a Reiki teacher. [Teaching the system] is the smaller part.

DIR: What you are saying is very important, but often training consists of attunement and a manual or a video, or a few hours of in-person training. What do you think about the current state of Reiki training today?
FAP: What I think is just my personal opinion. I always filter everything through the wisdom of my own heart. I learned that very early on. But one of the things I learned from Osho is don't believe anything that anybody says, but always check it. To know if it is valuable inside or not. If it works for you.
So, I would say, as a Reiki teacher, what do I feel comfortable with? How do I feel comfortable teaching it? I feel comfortable teaching Reiki in person. I don't feel comfortable teaching Reiki online. So, I don't do it, but it's not a judgment. If you're comfortable doing online courses, that is your business, and you have to live with it…
For me, it's not an option. I don't like it, and I don't do it. That's what I'm very happy [online] talking to people and discussing things around the topic of Reiki, but no actual teaching. I wait until I can touch my students again... For me, it's almost more important to go and eat lunch together during the workshop because that's where you really see what is happening inside people when there are no facets, no concepts. When there are no roles of teacher and student, when we are all the same, I think is when you really see things changing. To me, that only happens in the presence of one another. This is how I see it. I know that many people like to teach online. It's easier. It's convenient. You save all the airline fees, the hotels, the venues. I understand all that. People need Reiki a lot. I understand all that, but I'm not going to do it. I wait. I prefer to starve.
DIR: No, please, don't starve!
FAP: This is my truth. And I'm not saying it's the truth. There is no truth. There's only subjectivity. What I suggest is that you go inside and see, "What do you feel comfortable with?" And then you do that. Don't listen to anybody else. There's nobody smarter than you. There's nobody who knows better than you. Ask yourself what to do, how to do it, and then you are good. 
In our tradition, the teaching guidelines are quite serious and severe, but teaching, let's day starts with Shoden-Reiki 1. One then goes to Okuden-Reiki two. And then the different levels of the teachers. To become a fully certified teacher will take at least two or three years under tutelage. Plus, we have rules about how many hours of treatments one has to document in writing. It's like 120 hours of treatments with at least 40 different clients. You have to document it all and send it to the Institute. And then we decide whether we take somebody. So, we take that very seriously. You cannot do this on the weekend with us because we don't feel comfortable with that.

DIR: But I think this is good for the student. I got those eight-hour training, and when I started offering treatments, I was so insecure. I didn't have the proper training and support. And when I called to have a mentoring session, the answer I got was, "You don't need mentoring; you need a session to balance your chakras!" I knew then I was not going to do my Reiki master with that teacher. I feel we want to go through levels fast, but then we crumble. We need to start building a solid foundation. I think training for more hours is a better idea and waiting before becoming a teacher immediately.
FAP: Let's look at the traditional way that this was done. When I learned from Chiyoko sensei, you couldn't even ask to become a teacher. You would learn and learn and learn and learn. At some point, she would say to you, "Okay, now it's time." That was the traditional way. Of course, the Western world is not going to work like that. People don't understand this concept, especially where you live [in New York City.] People are so competitive, and they want everything right now. 
But what I'm saying is to get a good and solid Reiki education. There's no rush anyway. Why do you want to reach something? There's nothing to reach. You are not a better person if you're a Reiki master or a Reiki 1 practitioner. You're the same. It makes no difference. The difference is made by the work that you have done.
It's the inner work that we do [that makes the difference.] And, of course, the practical work that we do.
In Lesvos Island, where we live, we built a dojo training center. In the summer, that place is open for treatments every day, between 4:00 and 7:00 PM. Sometimes there are 30 people giving treatments every day all summer. So, we have maybe three, four, or five clients. And then a whole bunch of people, four or five on each table treating and treating, learning and learning. This is how you learn: by practicing. 

DIR: You mentioned your teacher Chiyoko Yamaguchi. Can you explain who she was?
FAP: Chiyoko Yamaguchi was my third teacher. And after I met her, I just taught what I had learned from her and left all the other [learnings] behind. She was a student of Hayashi sensei and learned Reiki from him in 1937. By the time I met her in 2000, she had 60 some years of daily practice. 
I asked her once how many treatments had she done? She said two or three every day for 63 years. I calculated it once. That's a lot. She was like an encyclopedia. You could ask her anything, "What do you do with fibromyalgia?" "Oh, yeah, in 1952, I treated this woman, and you do this. And then you do this and that." 
When I met her, I was already a well-known Reiki teacher. I had written three or four books. Everybody at that time knew who I was. And she said, "Okay, so you've been practicing for a while. Do you give treatments? I said, "Yes." She said, "Have you witnessed any healing?" I said, "Yes." She said, "Well, what?" I was like on the witness stand. I couldn't believe it because usually, Japanese people are not so inquisitive. "I'd been treating people with cancer or with whatever." "Have they gotten better?" she asked. I said, "Yes." She said, "I always ask people who are teaching Reiki, do you do treatments? Usually, they say, "No, I'm too busy teaching. And then I ask him, what in the world do you teach if you have no experience." 
I think that sums it up here. If we teach, especially if we teach, we must continue doing treatments. We must learn from every new client. The moment you stop learning, you're dead. You're finished. You might as well stay home and retire.
In my Reiki practice, we do it the same way as [all Japanese arts.] The focus is on the work. If you do your work, you progress. If you don't, you don't. It is not a judgment. It's not for everybody. But Reiki is not something that you need to take off some degree or something. It's not about that. It's about reaching a certain maturity in your practice, and you get that only by practicing. It's as simple as that. 

DIR: Often, I get questions, and my answer is to go and practice. Why? Because I can talk my head out, but it will still just be a concept. If you don't practice, you will come back with the same question because some questions are only answered by practice. And only have specific questions when you practice. 
Changing course, I like to ask my guests about their biggest Reiki oops. Because most practitioners look at someone like you and think you are so advanced that you get everything right all the time. You went to Japan, have practiced for years, wrote books… "I will never be like him!" 
But Reiki teachers are human too. Can you share one mistake that ended up being a great lesson?
FAP: That list is long! I will tell you the one I did regarding my writing. I have no journalistic training at all. In 1994, a long time ago, I found the Usui memorial in Tokyo, which at that time we thought nobody had ever seen before, no foreigner. We translated the inscription. It said something about the Usui sensei's life that he had a very loving character, and he was humorous and was a very good speaker. And the people were hanging on to his kimono to get some of his energy, that he was married, had two kids, and so on. And that we should follow the legacy of the Meiji emperor. Period. A full period. The next sentence: Kyo dakewa. Ikarus na. Shinpai suna… the Reiki principles. So when I read it, I thought, "Wow, the Reiki principles are the legacy of the Meiji emperor." And I wrote that.

DIR: Oh, that is the source of the confusion. [Laughs] I've been researching that, and I kept hitting a wall every time I was trying to find the relationship between the Meiji emperor and the Reiki precepts!
FAP: It wrote that. And then, just after the book was out, we found out that those two parts of the inscription have nothing to do with one another. That was one of the big mistakes I made. And even now, people in their classes say that the Reiki principles come from the Meiji emperor. This was my fault, my fuck up. Sorry guys!
Usui sensei put them together from what we can call the zeitgeist, the spirit of the days. That was kind of common in spiritual circles. I researched lots of other spiritual groups, and they all have these kinds of precepts. It's a very Japanese thing. Even elementary schools will have some kind of ethical backbone or precepts hanging in the principal's office or general assembly.

DIR: This may have been my favorite mistake ever! It's precious! 
Talking about another thing, Reiki practitioners are often confused: the symbols. Some lineages draw them. Some meditate with them. How do you work with the Reiki symbols? 
FAP: The Reiki symbols are tools given to the student at a certain level after they've acquired certain skills. In Jikiden Reiki, the first symbol [is given in] the first level. We get the other symbols in the second level. It's all done differently. 
Perhaps one thing that is good to say is that we seem to think that we are initiated into a degree or initiated into a symbol in our Western Reiki lineages. And if you ask a traditional Japanese Reiki practitioner or Reiki teacher, they will say that you are not initiated into a degree or a symbol, but into Reiki again and again and again.
In most Reiki lineages, there are four symbols. There are the three for the second degree and the master symbol. In Japanese lineages, there is no master symbol. It was added by students of Takata sensei after she passed away. There was recently was an interview with Phyllis Furumoto [Mrs. Takata's granddaughter and heir] before she died where she finally said it. I've been saying it for 20 years, but nobody believed me. 

DIR: I love the difference that you made: we are initiated in Reiki over and over again, not attuned to a symbol. 
FAP: The symbols are very specific. They have a purpose. You use the first symbol for this, the second for that, the third for that. You don't mix them in the traditional school because they have each a purpose of their own. There's no need to mix anything. It's not that mixing is bad or will make you explode or something—it's not necessary. 

DIR: Every lineage has a different approach. I love minimalism, so the Japanese style fits me better. 
FAP: If you ask me, "What kind of Reiki do you practice?" I will say, look, the Reiki that comes out of my hands doesn't have a label. It's just pure unpolluted life energy. And [it's the same as] what comes out of Nathalie's hands, out of everybody who's listening or not, out of every mother's hands when she's treating her child. There is no label. 
There is only a difference in practice and philosophy. Think of what we talked about earlier: the mirror. Look at the practice and choose the one that suits you. I have had a long history of Japanese culture in this life. I lived there for 12 years. I had my first Japanese girlfriend when I was 18. I have this predisposition to all things Japanese… So, I choose that [style]. But if you ask me if it's better than any other kind of Reiki… Ph my God! How can my Reiki be better than yours? Only somebody who doesn't understand the basics of Reiki would say that. Reiki does not have a label. If you think that you're better than somebody else, you really need to look at yourself, work on that first, and better not teach others.

DIR: I feel like I am going to quote you like 300 times in the future! I wanted to close the interview by discussing your two most recent books.
FAP: I published in November a Reiki book called One with Reiki. It explains Reiki's background: Japanese [culture and] spirituality. So, people who practice Reiki can understand it better. 
A few weeks ago, I published a book that's called …Is… about living in the present, being present, living a meditative and fun life. It has lots of breathing techniques, meditation techniques, etc. It's really a fun project. The editor was laughing. She said, "Oh, my! The word Reiki appears for the first time on page 156!" 
I wrote it because I see the Corona [pandemic] as a chance to do introspection, to grow. For self-realization and to do all the things that you have not done until now. Maybe some of which you have avoided until now. To fix problems that you might still have not addressed and let go of your baggage.

DIR: I've read a couple of chapters, and I really enjoyed the tone: it's joyful and warm.
FAP: For me, what is important…is to have awareness. To be present in everything. Otherwise, you cannot do your practice. Reiki is the same. But what you also need is tenderness. Tenderness for the people that you're working with, but also for the steering wheel of your car while you're driving, or for the rocks, or for the animals—for everything. If you mix awareness, mindfulness, tenderness, and kindness, that's really an incredible mixture. And that will break your heart open like a pomegranate.
DIR: Your appreciation of tenderness really comes through in the book. It's a word we don't hear a lot about Reiki. We hear a lot about doing techniques, but tenderness is much more important than perfect technique. I'm just grateful we can have these conversations and your wisdom with the world and share your tenderness. Thank you so much for all your time and wisdom!
FAP: Thank you!

Dive Into Reiki: Kathleen Prasad is the founder of Animal Reiki Source and president of the Shelter Animal Reiki Association (SARA). A Reiki practitioner for over 22 years, Kathleen Prasad teaches and shares the healing benefits of Reiki meditation for animals and their caregivers. Kathleen has created the Let Animals Lead® method of Animal Reiki. This method represents the world's first specialized, extensive, and professional curriculum in Animal Reiki and meditating with animals for healing. Kathleen's non-profit, SARA, shares and teaches Animal Reiki for rescued animals and their caregivers in shelters and sanctuaries worldwide. 
I have to say that basically, Kathleen, you created the modality of Animal Reiki. I wasn't a thing before you came up with it. So, I'm really grateful you said yes to this interview. I want to start as I do with everyone, with a little bit of your origin story: tell us about the first time you came in contact with Reiki?
Kathleen Prasad: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Nathalie. I'm really happy to be here. My Reiki story is, I guess, similar to a lot of people that I've heard where it's unexpected, and it sort of takes over when you had other plans. Maybe the best things in life are like that! 
I originally discovered Reiki through my mother-in-law. She wanted me to get a [Reiki] treatment because she had had one. She lived in Denver at the time, and I lived on the West coast. So, the next time I visited her, she set up this whole thing, "Oh, you have to go get this treatment." I'm like, "Reiki? That sounds weird." And I was like, I'm like humoring her. That's why I did it. I got that first treatment, and it was so relaxing and peaceful. More than peaceful, like filled with well-being like filled with goodness and light.
I had grown up with severe anxiety disorders. So, I was always stressed, always nervous. And when I had my Reiki treatment, I felt just good. Like everything was okay, you know. I got up off the table, and I felt like I was levitating a few inches off the ground. I felt so light. Like all my burdens had been lifted. I just felt so good. And I'm like, "Oh my God, this is going to heal my anxiety." I never thought I would be able to be healed. I almost never even put that in my mind that I could heal my anxiety. I was just like, "I'm an anxious person. Oh, well, I have to live with it." The door opened that there was a possibility that my anxiety could be healed. I immediately dropped everything and had to learn Reiki. I found a local teacher. I also ended up studying the next time I went to Denver with a teacher in Denver, Martha. And it was Reiki from thereon. I literally started every single day practicing Reiki and just totally dove into it. I dove into Reiki, Nathalie!

DIR: Oh my God. I love that! Many of us who suffer from anxiety embrace Reiki as it is one of the few things beyond medication that actually help us. It gives us the possibility of feeling fine and not scared, which is beautiful. So how was that training? And what lineage did you train it at the beginning?
KP: The two lineages I learned originally for the first seven or eight years were Takata lineages or Reiki Shiki Ryoho. One of my teachers was Reiki Alliance [and was] actually very strict. It was very "Hands-on, Reiki on; Hands-off, Reiki off." That was like how I originally learned. 
And my practice that I began immediately was hands-on, self-treatment every day, as soon as I learned. And then my other teacher in Denver, Martha, was much less traditional and much more intuitive. She's also an acupuncturist, so she kind of brought in a lot of Chinese medicine philosophy and that sort of spiritual teachings along with intuition. She was much more like, "Well, you know, your hands will guide you. You have these hand positions to start with, but you can be more flowing and freer with it." I think it was nice to have both of those teachers and perspectives in the beginning.
I think it gave me a really good foundation for what Reiki is, and mostly for my own healing. What I always teach my students now is that Reiki actually starts with you. And even though you're here for your animals—because everyone who comes to me wants to help their animals—it starts with you. 
I learned that really strongly from my first two teachers about self-practice. I was able to really focus on myself. And it was interesting because when I was doing my hands-on self-practice, that was when my dog, Dakota, came and laid on top of my feet in this really weird way that he never did. And he only did it when I was doing Reiki. And I'm like, "What are you doing?" And finally, it dawned on me that he was like taking the Reiki space. He was like helping himself to some lovely healing energy. So, I sat down on the floor and put my hands on him. He rolled on his side, and he was like, "Finally, mom, jeez, I've been trying to tell you, I want Reiki."
It just didn't occur to me. I was so focused on my own healing. Dakota showed me that animals love Reiki. The other thing it showed me, which was kind of like a light-bulb moment, was that animals already know what Reiki is. For me, I had to take a class, I had to read about it. I was like, "This is confusing." And then my teacher would be like, "Well, just practice it, and then it will make more sense." And my dog's like, "Oh yeah, Reiki, totally. Totally get it. I'm taking this for healing. This is great. Thanks, mom!" And I'm like, "How do you know?" It was fascinating to me how animals are so energetically sensitive and very wise about energy. And so that kind of brought me onto a little different trajectory with my Reiki practice. I mean, I was so immersed in Reiki, and I loved it so much, and it was helping my anxiety so much that I thought, "I want to do this. I want to teach this." It just became bigger and bigger in my life. But then the animals were coming forward and saying, "But Kathleen, don't forget about animals!"
I was volunteering at shelters, and I was walking dogs and working with cats. I was seeing amazing responses to Reiki from these animals that were very stressed. I knew exactly how they felt because that was like my inner way of being stressed. And I'm like, "Oh, I know Reiki can help you because it's helping me." I would do Reiki with my horse, and people would walk by the stall, look in and go, "What are you doing? Can you do that for my horse?" And I'm like, "I don't know. I guess so." It just started taking over. That was kind of where it really began. 
I still remember going to dinner with my husband and my brother-in-law, and I'm like, I thought I would teach middle school my whole life. Now I feel so inspired about Reiki and also animals. And my brother-in-law said, "Well, why don't you do animal Reiki?" And I'm, "Because nobody does animal Reiki. That's not a thing." And he's like, "Well, why don't you make it a thing?" And I'm like, "Well, yeah, okay. I can. Why not? I can make it a thing, you know?" That conversation over dinner created something in me that [felt like] "It's okay that I'm the only one who does this. It's okay that nobody understands." I just knew at the core of my being that this is my purpose. This is what I'm supposed to bring to the world. This is what I'm supposed to do. So here we are, 23 years later, and animal Reiki is a thing now!

DIR: You made it! I am amazed because Reiki was already not that well-known 23 years ago. You mostly invented the modality of animal Reiki. It was really a big breakthrough at the time. Reiki is becoming one with the universe, but we keep it very much limited to humans. I love that you had that breakthrough. And I loved that it was someone who was outside who could see with fresh eyes and give you that insight. In our pre-interview, you told me your teacher's reaction to the idea of focusing on Reiki practice with animals. 
KP: Yeah. My very first teacher was like, "No, you can't do that! That's not a thing. You have to do all your training with Reiki. And then you have to teach Reiki to people you can't do [animals.] That's just not a thing." And I was like, "Okay."
Then I went to my second teacher in Denver, Martha. And I'm like, "Is this a bad idea? I want to focus totally on animals… What do you think?" And she's like, "Kathleen, that is the most amazing idea. And if anyone is going to do it, you're the person to do it. And I support you 110%." That was how I [started] because you have to have a teacher who will train you in Level 3 Reiki to be a Reiki teacher to go any further. I had to find that person, and Martha was that person for me. I'm really grateful that she saw potential and possibility where other people were like, "Oh no, no, you can't do that."

DIR: I just love that. When it comes to the Reiki system, we have to respect the core and the modalities, but we have to express it through who we are in our practice. For you, that's your expression. For me, it's a lot about our reporting and educating or mixing it with martial arts—we all have very different expressions of Reiki. As long as we do it based on who we are, not for marketing. So I think that is lovely. Can you tell us how your protocol to share Reiki with animals evolved from your practice with people?
KP: Yeah. So, you know, I love people too. After all, we are animals also. My first teacher gave me a lot of experience. She would send clients to me. I was going to hospices. I was working on hospital patients. I was going to people's homes, and people will come to my home. So, I was doing a lot of human treatments for the first seven years of my practice. And I had a lot of really beautiful experiences with that. 
I think some of the most moving ones were the ones with hospice patients and really seeing a deeper connection than just hands-on for a sore knee or a sore leg. [There was] something more important, something bigger kind of going on. I think that that really moved me. Some of those treatments were not conventional because they couldn't be touched if they were in a hospital bed. You could just sit and hold their hand.  
I remember my neighbor got hit by a drunk driver, and she got a brain injury. I went in to see her in the ICU to do Reiki. I sat down, and I just put my hand on her foot because that was the only place [I could.] I mean, she was so banged up! You couldn't touch her anywhere. And I'm like, "Well, my teacher would not approve this. This is not strict." I put my hand on her foot; I felt so much Reiki flowing through me. I got like pain all the way up my arms to my shoulders, and I was buzzing all over. I knew that that healing connection was happening.
The nurse had said, "She's out cold. She's on meds. She's not going to wake up, but you can sit with her." So, I'm sitting with her, and about 15, 20 minutes later, I hear this little voice, "Kathleen, I knew it was you." She's awake. She could only open one eye. She was all swollen. Her name is Stella, and she has this adorable cute little voice, just adorable… She said, "Kathleen, I knew it was you. I felt like I was at the bottom of this black hole, and I wanted to give up because I was in so much pain. And then I saw this light, and I knew I was going to be okay. It felt like you pulled me up into the light." It was so amazing to hear that, you know? Because we don't get that kind of verbal feedback from animals, right? And I was like, "Wow."
I didn't even do the right positions or anything. I was just sitting there with [my friend]. And I thought that is what is happening when I go to a shelter, and I sit with a dog, and the dog is depressed and listless, and there's nobody home in their eyes. Their eyes are just tuned out. I sit with them outside the kennel, and all of a sudden, they see me, and they come over and wag their tail. I would even have dogs roll in their back for me to reach through the bars and rub their belly at the end of the session. They would just come back to hope, into positivity through Reiki. It was pulling them up into the light—how she described. When she said that to me, I got the vision of all these shelter animals that I could see felt so much better after Reiki sessions.
The human practice gave me verbal feedback for what people experienced and felt that I could see in animals. It helped me make that bridge and trust a little bit more. But when I worked with animals, a lot of times, I couldn't touch them in the beginning. I tried to just use the hand positions that I'd learned for people and put them on animals. I would never start at the head because animals don't like that. I would start at the shoulders, and I moved down the body, and then I would end on the head when they were really relaxed from Reiki or something. So that's how I began. My first book, Animal Reiki, really shows that type of thinking; it was really taking human protocol and modifying it for animals.
But I had a little problem with that because some animals were like, "Sure, that's great." As I was doing it, some animals were looking kind of uncomfortable. And then, after two minutes, they would run away. I'd only get in like two minutes of Reiki. Then some animals would be like, "Oh hell no, you're not doing that to me." They would totally run, and then I'd be like, "But then you don't get any Reiki. There's no healing happening." 
That feeling of wanting to help and create that beautiful space of pulling you into the light, in a moment of suffering, bringing you into that well-being. How do I make it so that every animal feels safe and comfortable and I'm not pushing too much. Like, "Here's some healing energy, come back. I'm trying to help you!" And running after the animals. "Come back; the healing is for you!" right?

DIR: I've run after a few cats myself!
KP: I thought that it just didn't feel satisfying. It didn't feel right. It just wasn't good. So I'm like, "Whoa, what do I do?" if I would think, okay, who's like the most sensitive animal, like, let's say, a feral cat, right? A feral cat is afraid of humans. Doesn't want to be in a cage; he wants to be free. Their eyes get all big when they see a person. What do I have to do so that a feral cat feels the peace of Reiki and trusts me to step into connection. I want every animal, even the most fearful ones, to feel safe. I don't want to push my will or my agenda on them.
It was finding the instances where I was modifying the protocol for people because I had to. It worked and then tried to make it more comfortable for animals. Respecting them more, not wanting to dominate over them as the Reiki healer, but seeing it as shared decision-making—they can decide yes or no. That was where my protocol started to really go in a different direction. And the first thing I had to do is let go of hands. That was so hard because remember, my first teacher taught me, "Hands-on, Reiki on; Hands-off, Reiki off." That was really ingrained. 

DIR: Many teachers still teach that even though there is no mention of hands-on in the Reiki precepts—it's all about your state of mind. In your case, your practice forced you to let go of the hands because it's difficult to use touch on animals who have been abused. 
KP: Hands are bad for a lot of animals. They've never known kindness. They've been abused. So, when they see you with your hands, they look at [them] like they're weapons. It's really heartbreaking. I thought, "What if I just put my hands in my lap? Where's Reiki coming from?" These were thoughts that I had. If I looked at my own practice of hands-on Reiki, what was it doing? It was changing my heart. My heart that was so anxious and had so much fear was relaxing and opening and just feeling so good. I'm like, "Reiki really touches this [points to the heart.]". So that's what I say now to my students, "Reiki is about touching hearts, not hands." That was really my first scary, like, "Oh my God, am I still doing Reiki now that I'm letting go of hands?"
[Hands up] is a predatory position. I wouldn't even be across the room [holding my hands up] because I look like I'm going to pounce and attack. The hands had to be on the lap, not beaming, not doing anything. 
Hands-on the lap: animals would be like, "Oh!" Then I had a couple of animals I knew had surgeries or a torn ligament. They would come over, and they'd actually look at my hands on my lap, and then they would turn around, and they back up their stitches and sit down on my hand. They would literally be doing their own hand position. I never saw that coming. Animals will choose physical touch, and they will choose it in their own way. And you know why I never saw that before? Because I never made space for it to happen.

DIR: Because it's contrary to what we learn. When I learned Reiki for animals initially, it was about hand-placement, chakras for animals, and not doing them for more than 10 to 15 minutes. I was told that because they don't have limiting beliefs, they absorb energy faster.
When I trained in Japanese-style Reiki, I realized I no longer needed hands. But I love the fact that these animals actually wanted touch—albeit in their own way. You must have been so surprised.
KP: It was the weirdest feeling. I'm like, "Why didn't I do this before?" A horse would come and lean into my hands, and then they would move their body around. It wasn't in any order. It was just where they felt good. And I'm like, "Wow, animals actually have a way that they like to be." And not all animals came up and touched me. Some animals would lay down five or 10 feet away. Some fearful dogs would come and lay down behind me and lean against my back. And it was really important that I didn't turn around or look at them. I didn't even see them the whole treatment, but I would feel them very gingerly lay themselves. And I would hear them [sigh].
Some animals didn't want to be in my line of vision. Some animals wanted to be further away, some closer, some in my hands. And I'm like, "Wow. If I just hold space, animals decide what's comfortable for them. If I'm not pursuing some agenda, then I never scare them. If I just sit quietly, then they're always comfortable. They're always safe. The trust is built so quickly. That was a huge change in my protocol. I'm like, "Well, we can't do hands. We can't do hand positions anymore because we might offend somebody. We might come on too strong. We might make an animal uncomfortable. We might lose trust."
By the way, what you said about timing. The first ten years of my practice, when I was really just trying to do as many Reiki treatments as possible, an hour, 60 minutes, that was the ideal time.
A lot of that idea of short treatments is about our lack of ability to hold space. We get impatient because nothing's happening. We're not doing a protocol so that if the animal gets up and leaves, let's just finish. But guess what? You just continue to hold space. They come back. It's like an ebb and a flow. They walk in and out of the space, and they come closer, further away. But if you never just sit and hold the space, you never see them come back. Because you're like, "Oh, it's been two minutes. They got up and walked off, so I'm done. Bye. And you leave, and the animal comes in and goes, "Where did she go? I came back for more Reiki. She's gone already. It's only been two minutes!

DIR: I remember they told me if an animal leaves, it's because it's ready. It's funny because I easily hold focus on space for 15 minutes. I've learned to concentrate and hold the space for an hour, two hours, but 15 minutes—when I'm busy—it's the amount of time I can hold without effort. And probably that is common to many of us. But we blame it on the animal!
There is something I love that you mentioned: respect the animal. And your big Reiki aha or oops that change your perspective on sharing Reiki with animals even more. 
KP: Yes, that's like the second major change in my protocol that happened. And it happened from this mistake that I was making for such a long time, in human Reiki. I'd always learned to talk to the person about their issue and then focus on that issue. If they come to you and they say, "My knee is really sore," then you're going to focus the energy and place your hands around the knee. If they say I'm really sad, maybe you would focus on the heart. You're kind of trying to figure out what the issue is. Of course, Reiki goes where it needs to go. Still, you're having a conversation about what is wrong and focusing your protocol around that to some extent, right? That's kind of the way that I learned from both of my teachers initially. 
I noticed with animals, especially horses, taught me that the opposite was true. If a horse had a sore leg, and I went anywhere near that sore leg or even thought about that sore leg… their ears would go back. They would turn and look at me like, "Ugh, don't think about what's wrong with me. I'm totally fine." And they'd walk out. With cats, it was funny. I would go to someone's house to do Reiki on their cat, and the cat would be sleeping. I would stay across the room. I wouldn't disturb them. And the person would tell me, "You know they have this kidney disease, they're not able to eat, and it's making them very ill," or whatever. And then I'd sit down, I'd start Reiki, and I'd start going, "Okay. So, they have this kidney disease, and we want to heal." They'd wake up and be like, "I don't know who you think you are coming into my house and thinking about me as if I'm not perfect, but I'm out of here." And they would run off, you know? And I'm like, "Oh shoot. Are they really hearing my thoughts?" Yeah. They were. And they don't like you to focus on their ailments!
That's really scary that I have to monitor my own thinking because they're connecting, not only with what my body's doing… [but with my mind.] But how do I monitor my thoughts? So I would give myself affirmations. So if an animal was really anxious, I would think about affirmations of courage. I was trying to like create positivity, but I was missing a piece. I was missing something, and this did not come clear to me until I got breast cancer. 
I had the terrible experience of having the diagnosis and then going home and telling all your friends and family and seeing their faces and how they look at me completely change. Like no longer am I Kathleen. Now I'm a tumor. When they look at me, all I see is fear, pity, sadness, worry—varying degrees of that from everyone who looked back at me. 
It was the worst feeling. I felt I had lost myself. You don't realize how much you identify with the way people look at you, especially with people that are close to you, that you love. The way they see you is really part of who you are. When that is completely gone, I was like, "Where did Kathleen go?" It was extremely painful. I was already terrified of what was going to happen to me. And all of this made everything so much worse. 
Let me tell you, who in my life could see me still? My dog and my horse. When I went to see them next, they're like, "Hey mom, great to see you. This is awesome. What are we doing today? Let's go for a walk. We're going to ride today!" And I'm like, "How come my animals can still see me?" Then I realized, "Oh my God, I have been doing this terrible thing to the shelter animals and to the animals and hospice. I've been seeing them as broken, as less than. I've been defining them by their ailment. When they look at me, they see it reflected in my eyes everything wrong and broken!" It broke my heart. I realized I was in the shelter trying to do the right thing there to help. To support—and I was actually adding to their burden. I would never have seen it had it not happened to me.
That was the biggest mistake I ever made in my practice: defining animals and people by what's wrong with them and focusing on that. That's where my protocol completely shifted again in a whole different way. 
I say now—it's the third pillar of my Let Animals Lead method—is that we focus on the animals' perfection at this moment. Seeing that essence—like my dog sees when he looks at me when my horse looks at me—is always perfect. Doesn't matter if I'm in a bad mood. If my hair is messed up, if I have cancer, whatever it is—I'm perfect. And they look at me, and I'm like, how do they see that essence? I need to see that essence in myself so that I can get better. And I need to see it in the animals that I'm with. I just vowed I will never do that to another being. It's so painful. 
That's such a big thing that I teach now. It's so different: a protocol where you basically let go of whatever the diagnosis is, whatever the issues are. You acknowledge them and go, "Okay, yeah, but now we're doing Reiki, so in this space, you are the light. All is well. You're perfect in this space. It's filled with love and compassion. I think you have to see that in yourself before you can really see it in others. 
My cancer journey really taught me, "How do I see myself as the light in my darkest moments?" That was just a lot of what I learned through my journey. It's something that I always tell my students: "I don't want you to have to go through cancer to figure this out. So, I'm telling you right now. This is how you see. Let go of everything wrong. Nothing can diminish and dim that beautiful light within. It's still there. Even in the little dog who's passing away, that's very sick. I want you to see deeper than that. See their beautiful light shine. Be a mirror, reflect it back to them, remind them of that beautiful light. And then whatever's meant to happen in their journey—if they get well if it's their time to pass—they will be embraced in the light. Just like my neighbors, Stella said, pulling them up into the light. We can't control what happens, but we can create a space filled with love and compassion, and light in every moment. Peace in every moment. It's possible.

DIR: Thank you so much for sharing that. I know it's a very vulnerable story, so I really appreciate you sharing it. And again, I think he's great for animals, but for me, what you're saying is basically the essence of Reiki. You actually created the Let Animals Lead method, which has six pillars. Can you explain what they comprise?
KP: The Let Animals Lead method is something that represents the evolution of my own journey. The little lessons that animals have taught me along the way.
The first pillar of this practice is that it's based on Japanese Reiki techniques. Of course, that was my teacher Frans [Stiene,] which I know you've also studied with. When I studied with him, he presents Reiki as a meditation practice. When I learned that aspect and slant on the different tools that we have, that really opened things up. Because, of course, with animals, you can't use the hands-on protocol anymore. So, it's all meditation-based. All those Japanese teachings are really at the foundation and core of what kind of meditations I do—I do Reiki meditation. So whether it's the symbols and the mantras, Hatsurei Ho, the precepts even, are taught as like a mantra.
[You use them to] go inward and create that radiance that the animals can step into and step out of. The Let Animals Lead method is really about meditating with animals for healing. But at the base, the first pillar is those Japanese Reiki techniques. 
I always tell my students, there are six pillars. Only the first one is Reiki. It's really evolved into something more and different. Why? Because wanting to empower animals. Wanting to make them feel safe. Wanting to be able to deepen my trust with them. That sacredness of animals has really driven the rest of the pillars. 
The second pillar is about touch. We use touch only when animals initiate it. That is very different than what others have done in the Reiki community. In the beginning, you know, touch was just done. And then people started to realize, "Oh, some animals don't like touch. We should give them a choice." Which is good. Now the normal teaching is to put your hands on the animal but let them walk away. That's kind of the way that the human teachings have been modified for animals. In the Let Animals Lead method, that's not far enough. We never want to even go there with the touch if the animal doesn't 110% want it. How do we make sure [of that?] Let them be the ones to do it. 

DIR: It's like #metoo in a way.
KP: Totally. And especially when you're talking about animals who have trauma. This is not a mistake that you can afford to make because it may be very difficult or impossible to regain their trust once you've crossed that line. Your animals at home may forgive you, and it's not a big deal. 

DIR: Yeah. They forgive everything!
KP: Yeah. My philosophy about that is that if I'm going to give the utmost sacred respect and choice to a traumatized animal, why wouldn't I do that to the animal who is my partner in life? Wouldn't I afford them the same respect? Just because they're nice, I shouldn't take advantage of that. It's always animal-initiated. We never cross that line. Trust the animal with that. 
The third pillar is about that state of mind change. We focus on the animals' perfection. And that is very different as well. What's taught a lot in the animal Reiki community now is finding out the diagnosis, figuring out the issues, and then focusing on those areas. Some people use the chakra; some people just visualize light beaming to the sore ankle or whatever it is—but they focus on what's wrong. 
Because of my unique experience with how that feels negative when you're suffering, I said, "Hell no, we're not doing that." We're going to stand in the light. And we're only going to see the light, and we're going to reflect the light back. We're going to be one in the light. The light is all there is. Everything else just dissolves in that light. I call it seeing with your Reiki eyes, but that is really seeing. That's not easy. That's why we have to practice. So the focus of our state of mind is really important with animals, because, again, [they] sense your thoughts. They're going to become uncomfortable and resistant to connecting with you if they sense your thoughts going to what's wrong with them. Your vibration totally changes when you start going, "Oh my God, they have this skin condition." Or if you look at them and say, "You're perfect and beautiful." You're not denying that they have a skin condition. But you're saying that doesn't define you—I see more. I see that beautiful essence of you. 
The fourth pillar is something that working with animals will teach you: meditation is a way of compassion. It's not a physical body position. You do martial arts. When you learn your forms or even your meditations to prepare for your forms, it's very strict. Your back is straight. Everything is in alignment. And that's very important. 
When you're working with animals, you might be in a barn with a horse. You could be in a pasture with a cow. You might be sitting outside, under a tree with a bird. You could be in a shelter environment, and there's the public walking in and out, so you have to shift where you're going. You could be walking in a forest with your dog. In all these places, it's possible to be Reiki. If we understand that Reiki is not a physical position, it's our state of mind and heart. It's our way in the world. It's like a way of compassion. Animals understand that. 
If you have ever taken a yoga class or something, everyone's meditating at the beginning. You have your cute little outfit on, and they have music, and everybody's all shiny and looking good. But for all you know, everybody in the class is thinking about something else entirely, totally distracted, not even focused. And the teacher will look out and be like, "Yeah, look how great the class looks." And you look around you go, "Yeah, everyone's so namaste. It's totally awesome, right?" Nobody knows. Well, let me tell you if you were standing in a pasture of horses and you look perfect, but mentally you're out to lunch, your heart is not in it, the animals will know like that! And they will not tolerate it. They'll just be like, "Whatever," and they'll just leave. 
I work at the care foundation usually in February. Although I didn't get to go this year, I've been going there for 10 years, working with exotic animals, rescued animals like alligators, crocodiles, monkeys, like everything. They're so sensitive to your state of mind. If you don't have your whole heart in it if you're not completely open and in that grounded space, forget it. They will have nothing to do with you. No way. It doesn't matter how great your yoga outfit is and how perfect your posture is. They're like, forget it.
It doesn't really matter whether I'm sitting or standing; my eyes are open or closed. If you're with horses in a pasture, you have to keep your eyes open to be safe. You're going to be aware. They can spook; you have to keep your wits about you. How do you meditate while you're still present? Well, the point of meditation is to be present. I know some of us meditate to go off into Lalaland, but animals show us that that's not why we meditate. "You do your thing, honey, but I'm not going to be involved." Animals will be involved when our meditation brings us here. 
Again, meditation is our way of compassion; the physical position of our body is not. In fact, with animals, we have to be really flexible. If we want to be in the barn with pigs, we have to sit on a bucket and move around. My students at Bright Haven used to go out with the goats. They would come back, and their hair would be green because the goats love to chew on their hair, but they had been chewing on alfalfa. They'd come back, and I'd be, "How was your treatment?" They're all, "It was awesome" with a big chunk of green slime.

DIR: That is holding space, right? You're not distracted. They're chewing your hair, and you still sitting with compassion and not worrying.
KP: And they're there with you because you're with them. It's an honor that they chewed on your hair because they didn't run to the other path. 
The fifth pillar is developing mindfulness with animals for peace and healing. For me, the essence of Reiki practice with animals is mindfulness. Learning to be here. Now in this moment and everything we do with Reiki—if it's the precepts, Hatsurei Ho, the symbols and the mantras, if we're doing hands-on healing for ourselves in the presence of animals—we're creating this space of I'm letting go of all the other stuff. I'm here with you now, 110%. I'm here with an open heart and open mind. 
To me, that mindfulness is ultimately the quality that animals seek in us. I remember once I took some students to Guide Dogs for the Blind to train and meditate with the dogs. They were so like perfectionists about their meditation practice. They were sitting in a room with the dogs walking around. They're inward, totally focused. At one point, one of the dogs came and sat in front of my student and looked at her. She opened her eyes, and she's like, "No, I'm meditating. Don't bother me; I'm meditating. Then the dog puts one foot on her, and she's still [trying to meditate.]. Then the dog licks her on the nose, and she's still [trying to meditate.] Finally, the dog goes, "Whatever." He just walked away. Afterward, I was like, "Why didn't you engage with the dog?" And she's like, "Well, because I was meditating." I'm like, "But what's the purpose of your meditation?" And she's like, "Well, to connect to them…Oh! Okay!" It was like a light bulb. 
Mindfulness, being here now, being present—that's what animals teach us. We can't zone out and be floating in space if we want to be with animals. 
The sixth and last pillar, I think, is maybe the most important one. And that one is that we honor animals as teachers and healers in their own right. If there's anything that could heal the human-animal bond on this planet, it's seeing through those eyes. We often see animals as products. We dominate them. We see them like we're taking care of them, but they don't really know any better. We're like the smart ones. Spiritual practice with an animal teaches you that animals understand energy more. They're more expanded in their view. They are spiritual teachers to us. If we can see the world through the eyes of animals, for example, a butterfly, we can learn so much about transformation, right? 
To me, that is the path towards healing for our planet. That is what our planet is missing right now: that harmony, respect, and seeing the sacredness in beings that are different from ourselves.

DIR: That is such a change of paradigm. Because we always feel I going to offer Reiki to animals to save them. We never let them be our teachers and healers. In that sense, you had a beautiful experience with snakes and healing. Would you mind sharing that?
KP: Sure. A lot of people hate snakes, and I have to admit that I am afraid of snakes as well. And They're just different kinds of beings, and some of them are venomous. So, there's this whole thing between humans and snakes, right? "Oh my God, a snake!" Right. You hear the old Buddhist teachers tell stories about how you kill the snake, and that represents something. Culturally in folktales, [snakes are] always the villain. Look at the Bible! The whole cultural paradigm with snakes is like a negative thing. Right.
After I had my surgery, I went to the Care Foundation. I was still pretty weak and in a lot of pain. But I'm like, "No, I need to go and be with the animals because it's so healing to be there!" That year I decided to go into the snake room to do Reiki with Leah, the vice-president of SARA, and my best friend and partner. We haven't seen that [room] before. They have like three walls in a room, floor to ceiling of the glass, you know, cages with the snakes in them. They have a few that you can hold that are tame, but a lot of them are like rattlesnakes, cobras… a lot of venomous snakes.
It's a little intimidating to go there and have the Cobra come up with the hood. But we're like, "No, all the animals are beautiful, bright lights. We should go in to do Reiki." Leah was on one side with the back wall, and I was on the front wall. We were setting our intention to do Reiki, and all of a sudden, instead of saying, "I'm here to help you and support you with Reiki." I'm like, "I could actually use some healing. I'm feeling like crap. I have been through a lot in the last six months." 
I just had this intuitive feeling that these snakes were healers and teachers. There was a rattlesnake right in front of me. It was all curled up, sleeping. As soon as I set my intention and put my hands on my heart, he woke up and brought his head up. Intuitively I brought my arm up, which was in a lot of pain after my surgery. We looked at each other through the glass, and he started to dance, to slowly weave back and forth. I followed his movement with my arm. We were like dancing together. It was like such a powerful, energetic feeling.
I felt almost like my heart was going to explode. My lower belly felt really dense and weird. But I'm like, "This is the snake sharing. This is an honor that he's dancing with me." It was kind of overwhelming, but [I let the fear go.] As soon as I did, it felt good. We were just doing this.
His name was Kane. He was a cane back rattler and was about six, seven feet long. I had this weird feeling that of like a bigger view. I looked at the wall, and every single snake was dancing with us. There were like two or three cobras. There was a boa on the bottom part. There were like… 10 snakes all doing this, all of us together. I said to Leah something weird is happening. She turned around, and all the snakes went down, back into their sleeping pose… I felt so much gratitude. I'm feeling like, "Oh my God, snakes show compassion to humans and are willing to connect after what we've done [to them in] our culture... They are dancing with me!" When I walked out of that room, my head felt really spaced out, and the pain in my arm was 80% gone. I was brought to tears.
I think that all the snakes felt that I didn't see them as scary, bad, or creepy. They probably thought, "This is weird, a human that's looking at us with different eyes. She sees us as the light. That's really interesting!" 
That's what I've really noticed with animals: whatever species it is, they sense and feel the way we see them. It's so important for us to open our eyes and see the light because we are all the same thing. We're all this beautiful part of this web in the universe. We all share that, and nobody's left out of it. A lot of people are like, "Oh, snakes, no, I can never get in the snake room, Kathleen." And I'm like, "I respect that. That's okay. You don't have to go to the snake room. But I'm just saying, if you did, you might be amazed."

DIR: It's about letting go of separation and feeling compassion. I'm so grateful you shared this story. If I could beam your message to every brain in the world, I would! Because for me, that is the core of the practice.
I want to finish the interview talking about SARA, your non-profit. I know it's very relevant to you. What are some of your goals for the future?
KP: The Shelter Animal Reiki Association (SARA) was something I started after my dog Dakota passed away. He's kind of our mascot. It's sort of dedicated to his memory because he was a rescue dog. He was also my first animal Reiki teacher and my most profound animal Reiki companion for 16 and a half years. 
I thought of all the animals in shelters that never find a home and have faced so much trauma in their lives. Nobody realizes all the gifts they have to give and all of the wisdom they have to share. All the light that they bring to the world— it's like this untapped reservoir of wisdom and compassion in the world. Dakota was that for me. I thought, what if I never adopted him? I would never have known. 
I thought, what could I do to help and support [all these animals]? To recognize their light, their gifts, their wisdom. Share Reiki. When I'm sharing Reiki with animals, when I'm meditating with them, I see them as my teacher. I see them as the light. I shine that back to them as we've talked about. And maybe others will see it. If they can see me seeing it, maybe they'll remember it, even though they've been traumatized. And maybe the next person who walks through looking to adopt will see it too.
My goal with SARA to share Reiki with is as many rescued animals on this planet as possible. We should be in the shelters, in the sanctuaries sitting opposite them and being the light with them. We started out in 2008, so this is our 13th year. We went from about 10 members to now about 200 members. We started out as a program of volunteer practitioners going in and offering treatments. Now we have educational programs we offer to staff to volunteers in many different organizations across the world. It started out just in the United States. Now we're also in Europe, India, Canada, and South America.
I'm so proud of SARA. We're the only organization that does what we do. Not only do we volunteer treatments and teaching—but we also give back a percentage. When we teach a class to the general public at a shelter or sanctuary, we donate 25 to 50% back to the organization. We've donated hundreds of thousands of dollars over the last ten or 12 years. 
I'm so honored: the crew of volunteers in SARA are the best people in the world. They're amazingly selfless people. If you want to find out more about what we do and how to be involved, you can go to shelteranimalreikiassociation.org.

DIR: Where can people find your regular training and books?
KP: If you want to learn animal Reiki with me, animalreikisource.com. I have tons of different programs on there. I have a blog with tons of articles. I've got all my podcasts on there that you can listen to. And all my books are on my website and also on Amazon.

DIR: Kathleen, I really appreciate your time, Katelyn. For me, it's been a very moving experience. And I hope the whole world hears a lot more from you.
KP: Thank you for giving me this platform to share what I love and, hopefully, bring more people into that possibility of seeing animals in a more sacred way. I think it's what our planet needs right now.

DIVE INTO REIKI: Welcome to Dive into Reiki podcast. Today I have a very special guest, very close to my heart: Frans Stiene. I'm your host, Nathalie. I've been practicing Reiki for 15 years. I'm the author of two books: the Reiki Healing Handbook and Reiki as A Spiritual Practice. Frans is my mentor, teacher, and dear friend. He's been a significant influence of global research into the system of Reiki since the early two-thousands. His practical understanding of the Japanese influences on the system has allowed students worldwide to connect deeply with this practice. And he's the co-founder of the International House of Reiki and the Shibumi international Reiki association with Browen Logan Stiene. He has co-written some of my favorite books: the critically acclaimed Reiki Source Book, The Japanese Art of Reiki, A-Z of Reiki Pocketbook, and Your Reiki Treatment. And two very, very special books written from his practice, The Inner Hear of Reiki and Reiki Insights. But most of all, he's a fantastic human being. What I love about Frans is that he really embodies the practice 24/7 in a very joyful downward way. If you go to a class with Frans, be prepared to laugh, cry, hug. It's freaking amazing. So Frans, welcome. How are you?

FRANS STIENE: Good morning. I'm doing well. Thank you, Nathalie. Good to be here and good to be talking to you. It's exciting. I'm ready.

DIR: I have to say that [the first few years] I didn't understand Reiki practice very much. I loved it. I was very attracted to it, but it wasn't until I read your book The Japanese Art of Reiki that I was like, "Oh, that's what I was feeling. That makes sense." I got it. I think I'm still practicing Reiki because of your books and then your classes and retreats. So, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm excited because we're going to go through your journey. Still, we're going to be zero in on Reiju, also called initiations or attunements. I think you have a genuine understanding to share with everyone in the Reiki community. But let's start with the beginning. You were a party boy, and suddenly you came in contact with Reiki. Can you give me a little bit of your origin story?
FS: Yes. I was a big party person. I love dancing. I still love dancing, but I don't do it that often anymore. I suffered from a lower back problem, and I moved from Holland to India. I lived there for two years. And then I came in contact in the Himalayas with a lady who was a healer. She did something [to] me that triggered for me a really big opening and awareness [and got rid of the back pain.] I started to buy books on all sorts of spiritual practices. That was highly unusual for me! And one of them was about the system of Reiki, and I thought, "Well, that sounds interesting!" In Katmandu, Nepal, I studied Reiki 1, 2, and 3, and then for a year with Bronwen (Logan Stiene), I had a Reiki center in Darjeeling.

DIR: And how did you go from studying Reiki to teaching it? And I seem to remember you had a story that one day someone approached you like, "Hi, do you know someone teaching Reiki?" How do you feel confident enough to teach? What made you say like, "Sure, I can teach this!"
FS: Yeah, it was bizarre. We just had done our first Reiki 3 class. I've done many because I think learning never stops. This was in Katmandu. We were standing in front of Pilgrims, a really famous book store in Katmandu, just after we had done Reiki three, a training, which actually, at that time, was terrible. It was the attunement, and then you got a copy of a book, of course, and then, "Bye, see you later! Work it out yourself!" And this couple comes towards us. And, I mean, literally, in that area of Katmandu, there were thousands of tourists. For whatever reason, they picked us out and said, "Excuse me, do you know any Reiki teachers around here?" And we go, "Eh…Well, we just did a Reiki teacher class, but we have no idea. But go inside [the book shop] there is a notice board; there must be some people teaching Reiki. Then we went like, "Well, this is bizarre. How is this possible that out of all these foreigners walking around here and standing here, they picked us out? This is a sign." So we followed them back in and said, "If you give us a week, we will prepare a class. We will teach you for free, and you can become our first students." And that was it!

DIR: OMG. I would love for you to go from that moment, that first training, to the style you train now? How has it changed over the years?
FS: Well, the way I was taught first was very externalized. Everything was seen as something outside of yourself, you know? When I lived in Darjeeling for a year, I also communicated with Tibetan Buddhist teachers and practitioners. There is a very big community in Darjeeling. They were really pointing towards the inside. I started to have certain experiences, and some of these experiences I could not understand. So I went to a Tibetan practitioner. I said, "Can I explain this to you?" And he said, "Yes, OK. This is really what we're looking for in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition when you are deepening your practice. What are you practicing? Are you practicing Buddhism?" I went like, "I don't know!"
I was wondering what was I really practicing? And so, I went in 2001 for the first time to Japan; I've been quite a few times. Since 2012, I've trained with a Japanese priest. And that, for me, has changed a lot. Already, prior to that, really developing myself looking at the Japanese ideas of internalizing spiritual practice. Seeing where Mikao Usui's teachings came from. What was he practicing? When we look at these teachings of Mikao Usui—the precepts, meditation, hands-on healing, symbols and mantras, and Reiju, nowadays called the attunement or initiation—we can see that he borrowed from Japanese esoteric teachings, like Shugendo, Mikkyo, Shinto, Zen, etcetera, to create the system we practice now. So It has changed a lot for me.

DIR: I love what you're saying: going from external to internal. Some people have a lot of resistance because it's almost questioning our capacity as simple humans with issues to offer a space of healing. How can I be good enough to offer all of this from inside myself versus just being a vessel? What kind of advice will you give someone who thinks that?
FS: I think we're so focused on everything that's outside of ourselves. Also, I think it's quite challenging to go within for a lot of people. You know, if you think about Mikao Usui's teachings, and we look at the precepts, for example, they are in Japanese, "Do not anger, do not worry," where do we store this trauma of anger and worry and fear? Inside the body. Not somewhere outside, over there, but inside the body. And therefore, even when we say we are a channel, we have to be a clear channel. If I have a straw and if that's the channel, then the straw needs to have no hole, no kink, no knot; else, the channel cannot be a good channel. Even if we see it outside ourselves and think that we are a channel, we still have to purify it. And we have to go within because that's where we store our anger and worry and fear. But it's also challenging. I think a lot of people find it very difficult to face their fears and worry, and anxiety. This is why I think a lot of modern healing practices have become very externalized.

DIR: That makes complete sense. Obviously, the beginning was centered on hands-on healing. How has it evolved? What is your practice today, and how often do you change it?
FS: For me, hands-on healing, of course, is a birthright. You know, you see it's snowing [here in Holland] today. You see kids falling, and straight away, they put their hands on their knees, or mom and dad run over and put their hands on their knees. It's a birthright. It doesn't mean they all have been practicing the system of Reiki, but it is an innate ability. However, of course, we can do hands-on healing with anger, with worry, with fear, with not being grateful, not being true to our way and our being, and not being compassionate. And this sounds very simple, but actually, it's really, really deep. So if we can do hands-on healing in that space of true compassion—what is true compassion, no attachment, completely open emptiness, non-Duality, etc.—then, of course, hands-on healing would be something quite different. So for me, I see hands-on-healing as a byproduct of your spiritual practice.

DIR: For me, it takes a lifetime to get there, right? I also think sometimes we see hands-on healing like, "Oh, want to relieve the pain in my knee," or, "It didn't work because he didn't take away my headache." We forget that we are feeling calmer and happier. And that is a lot more important. So sometimes we go for this healing and fixing versus just the exploration of the self.
FS: Yeah. Mikao Usui pointed it out so clearly in the Precepts— it's all about the mind, the mind of no anger, the mind of no worry, the mind of being grateful, the mind of being true to your way and your being, the mind of being compassionate. As we all know, man, that is difficult. Shit, that is so difficult, right? Particularly at this time. So nowadays [we are into] instant classes, instant attunement/Reiju/initiation. And then we go like, "Oh yeah, but it's not working. I still feel angry. I still feel worried." Yeah, but have you sat on your butt to do your practice? Because that is where it takes place. This is, for me, so important. It's also why the Japanese way is essential if we want to become a better human being. What is a better human being? It's a human being full of compassion and kindness and love and openness.

 DIR: I was giving a podcast yesterday for martial arts talking about energy and breath. They were asking me like, "How can you feel the improvement in the breath? How can you become better in specific breathing?" I was like, "We don't have the idea of improvement in Reiki. We have the idea of going deeper and exploring." The host was looking at me like I am a madwoman, but I feel that is a significant shift in martial arts or Reiki. It's not really about fixing yourself. It's really about getting to know yourself or your true self.
So, if I could take a peek at Frans Stiene at home when no one is looking, what would I see you doing?
FS: [Laughs] Throwing snowballs!
DIR: Ha!
FS: For me at the moment, there are some very specific practices. I've been practicing with the specific instruction of my teacher in Japan, a priest, to gain of much deeper and direct experience of ultimately the Precepts. You know, the embodiment of the Precepts, embodiment of the Reiki 3 symbol and mantra, Great Bright Light, inner luminosity. And those for me are essential. So, it involves quite a lot of chanting, meditation practice, really learning to focus. I also think in our society, we are so unfocused! Why do we get angry? Why do we get worried? Because we get distracted by the past. We get distracted by the future. And we get distracted ultimately by the present moment. So the practice I'm doing is trying not to get distracted by past, present, future, which is really difficult. This is why I particularly have to practice till the end of my life because we have all a lot of shit.

 DIR: Yes. Welcome to being human. We have many times said that the core of the system is the Precepts, right? I think sometimes people see the Reiki system as very separate. They get their Reiki one and use the hands. Then they learn a symbol. It's hard to see the connection with the Precepts and with everything else. Can you elaborate on how the Precepts are the link that connects the whole system?
FS: Absolutely. For me, that's really the base. It's the foundation. I mean, you know, this idea comes to my mind that if we think [self-practice] doesn't matter, would it matter if I get hands-on healing from a junkie or the Dalai Lama? Of course, there will be a huge difference because the Dalai Lama is in this huge state of mind of Great Bright Light or kindness and compassion. And we all know that if someone is angry or depressed or worried and fearful that their body is [tense and constricted], their energy is like that. The mind is like that. So, therefore, of course, energy is not flowing. It's really simple, but it's so simple that often we don't see it because we like to make it complicated. But it's actually so simple: we [have to be] kind and compassionate—and I'm not talking about, "Oh, hi there" kind of kind, but true kindness, what is ultimately non-duality. Again, Mikao Usui is pointing that out within the mantras in Reiki 2 and Reiki 3 really, really clearly. And so that inner luminosity, your inner true self—what is that? That is the state of no anger, no worry, being grateful, being true to your way, and being compassionate. So the Precepts are an explanation of your true nature, of your true self, of that inner luminosity. And I think it's simplified too much, you know, we say, "Oh no, I'm never angry. I'm never worried. I'm compassionate." But if you are honest with yourself, then you realize that is not really the case.

 DIR: Also, there is no light without darkness.
FS: Absolutely.

DIR: What you're describing as called here in America spiritual bypassing. We are not in touch with the dark side of ourselves because it's uncomfortable. We don't want to be angry, but when we accept, it kind of washes away. If you run away from it, it becomes more insidious. I think it's lovely that Reiki gives you that platform to hold and be able to process those things.
FS: It's a little bit like this: if I would have worn this shirt a while and then wash it, of course, we see a lot of dirt coming off it. And we celebrate that because we know [that we will see] the purity of the jumper. But when that happens in our own practice, we go like, "Ooh, no, I don't want to touch it. Oh, I can see my anger, quick, let me go into Lalaland!" And therefore, meditation, mindfulness, yoga, Tai Chi, Qigong, the system of Reiki often has moved away and has become an escape instead of really dealing with your anger and worry and fear so that you can lay bare your innate compassion.

DIR: That is a big, big truth, and I think it's becoming even more so because we're teaching Reiki without any grounding techniques. Most of the training focuses on what we call the heavenly center, which is your connection to the source, to Lalaland, right? Because if you don't bring it into the body, if you don't embody it, it becomes spiritual bypassing because it's angels and happiness, and then you crash. You lose your keys, lose your job and become more emotional. So if someone feels a little bit emotional, "Lalaland-ish," and a little bit unstable after Reiki practice, what would you recommend?
FS: I was looking through the yoga sutras, and, again, even they're very clear: focus, don't get distracted by attachment, worries, fear, past, present, future. So, again, it's about being focused. Specifically, first of all, focus on the Hara, on your Dan Tien or the root and sacral chakras, for grounding and centering. Essentially in this time when there's so much stuff [in your head area], as you said, Heaven stuff, and we're not grounded. So we do this upside-down pyramid, and we go, "Weeee!" Therefore, we are so unstable. Therefore, we get quickly angry and worried, etc.

DIR: Yeah, no, I've noticed because some people are practitioners, and are offering many sessions, and then they are angry. And then they're like, "Why am I angry as a practitioner If I just study Reiki not to be angry?" It's a lack of grounding, right?
FS: It is. And this is why the essential elements are sitting on your butt and doing the meditation practice. But most of the time, we see the system of Reiki as, "Oh, you have the attunement or initiation, Reiju, or whatever you call it. You put your hands on someone, and we do hands-on healing on someone or ourselves. And most of the time, people go like this and fall asleep. In reality, they're just sleeping. They're not doing hands-on healing. And then we say, "Oh, the energy is doing it for me." We've become so superficial in it. Excuse me, but it's true. And it's really easy to check: if someone hits you on the head, do you get angry? Do you get worried? Do you get fearful? Are you reacting with compassion or not? I mean, it's a very easy checklist: the precepts, to know if and how you're doing what you practice.

DIR: The other day, I was in the subway, and we have many crazies. With the pandemic, I've become a little more nervous., This woman was screaming at me like 20 centimeters away. She had a mask that was falling, and she was screaming about love, but she was so angry. I could feel myself also getting angry. And then I got mad because I was angry. Because, yes, she was making me angry, but I had anger inside, to begin with. It was a nice check on my practice. I told myself, "I need to go and sit on my butt for a good while because I'm getting angry with this poor woman who's crazy!"
FS: This is it. This is a wonderful story. You know, if I have this cup with tea in it and someone knocks it, then tea comes out, not coffee, not Coca-Cola, nothing, you know, but tea comes. So if someone bumps me verbally or physically, what comes out? Anger or worry or love and compassion? If anger and worry come out, that means we have anger and worry inside of us. If love comes out, then it means we have love inside of us. And we can change that, you know? And so this is why we practice.

DIR: You have a very successful career. You traveled the world teaching. I wanted to ask you one question—and I'm asking this question to everyone. We always talk about growing as practitioners, but we seldom share our mistakes, our "Oops, what did I do?" I'd love for you to share one because I've learned my biggest lessons as a practitioner from my mistakes. I would love to hear yours.
FS: I think my whole career is one big mistake [laughs]. I think, you know, this is the problem… I think my biggest mistake is really that I often fall back on that ego thing. You know, the "me, poor me." "I, I, I." It's a very common thing for me. As you say, like anger, it's a really good tool to say, "Oh, Frans, you're getting distracted again with the "me" thing. There is a great called No Self, No Problem. Of course, there is a self, but if we have let go of the "I," the "me, me, me" thing, then we are OK. Again, it's in the Precepts: who gets angry? I get angry. Who gets worried? I get worried. No "I": no one home to get angry or worried. So yeah, my issue is sometimes I have very specific things that I find difficult to let go. But they are great learning tools for me as well. So, in a way, I don't see them as a mistake because when they happen, I realize, as you said, 'Oh, I need to sit more on my butt. I need to work on this." And so, therefore, they are great pointers for self-exploration.

DIR: You are a human and a Leo. So, the "I" thing is big for you! [Laughs]
FS: Meow!
DIR: Honestly, except for the photobombing every selfie taken on the street when you were in New York, I haven't seen you very much in the "I" space!
I wanted a little bit to zero in on attunements, especially with the pandemic. I've noticed that as practitioners, we don't have a deep understanding of what attunement is. For everybody, attunement, initiation, or Reiju are all the same thing—the ritual in which the teacher initiates students into Reiki practice. I've had people trying to sell me attunements for $40. I've had people calling me to get an attunement so they could sell remote Reiki sessions for a hundred dollars, but they wanted to pay me 30. And I've also had people saying like, of course, I can perform an attunement if I check my notes from three years ago.
This is not a judgment. That would have been my answer like three, four, five, six years ago. This is just the way we're training our community. Are we giving them all the information about attunements? There are very few practitioners with the depth you have because you've practiced probably like a million of them. I was very fortunate to get quite a few. Can you explain what a Reiju is? How would you define it?

FS: First, [let me explain something] because I think in the wider Reiki community, there is a misunderstanding about Reiju and attunement. They think it's two different things, but the word attunement doesn't exist in Japan. Neither the word initiation. These are English words. So in Japan, there is one word, which is Reiju. And Reiju has different rituals. They all do the same thing. Some are very simple. Some are very elaborate, and it would depend on the student and the teacher what kind of ritual you use. Some have no symbols and mantras. Some do have symbols and mantras. Again, that is not enough. Many years ago, one student said, "Frans, we can teach a monkey how to perform this ritual, but it doesn't mean they can perform a Reiju." So yeah, let's call it Reiju from now on, but remember: Reiju, attunement, and initiation—one and the same thing.
We often think it's just a physical ritual, but I can go outside here and teach this ritual to someone. They can do it in half an hour, right? It's not that difficult. That doesn't mean they can do Reiju. Traditionally Reiju is a spiritual blessing. If you translated it: spiritual blessings, a spiritual offering, spiritual giving-receiving. It means it's spiritual in nature, so if my mind is confused, full of anger, full of worry, full of fear, full of attachments. If my mind is not empty, right? Empty ness: no me, no you, completely wide open. If the physical ritual is not infused with this, it lacks the depth of it.
Traditionally [in Japan] where Reiju comes from, these rituals were only taught to people who became a priest or priestess. That means they already had a super, super long training. They were first a monk or a nun. Then they did the priest or priestess training. What was really, really intense, right? And only then were they taught these particular rituals because they knew it wasn't the physical ritual. It's your state of mind. And this is why the state of mind of Reiju you is the most important element. What is the state of mind? Emptiness, non-duality, and, ultimately, enlightenment. I've been very fortunate to have rituals like this being performed for myself by priests, priestesses. It was very, very different than anything you've ever "received."
For me, it's so potent, so clear that these rituals, their essence, are really how you've tapped into your inner luminosity. And not just a little bit. I know some people who say, "Oh, I'm one. I'm in this nondual space." Cut the crap. Really. Cut the crap. There is a Buddhist teacher who has a very easy test for you. I like him a lot. He's quite outspoken. He said, "If you keep talking about that you are in this oneness space, there is a very easy test: buy a candle, lit the candle, stick your hand in the flame and keep saying, I'm one with the flame. If you burn your hand, shut up and keep practicing." Because if you're one with the flame, fire cannot burn fire. It's very simple. But you know, we have these concepts, and we think so superficially about these. This is why we have to be brutally honest with ourselves and investigate and realize that the essence of these Reiju is ultimately non-duality, what means no giver, no receiver, nothing to give, just pure luminosity.

 DIR: I think it's interesting when you say no giver, no receiver, right? Often, when, as teachers, we perform Reiju, we feel we're enabling our students to connect more consciously with the ki. We're giving them the ability to channel Reiki. According to the lineage, the language changes. But you're talking that as a teacher, you're not a giver, and there is no receiver. So can you elaborate a little bit on that?
FS: For me? It's about realizing that you are Reiki. Mikao Usui again pointed out at this so wonderfully: that your essence is already Great Bright Light. He pointed this out in the Reiki 2 symbols and mantras and the Reiki 3 symbol and mantra. You are Kami [essence], you are Buddha. You are Great Bright Light. You are already inherently no anger, no worry, no fear, being grateful, being true to your way and your being, and being compassionate. But we've forgotten about this. We put all these layers over this beautiful, bright light. So Reiju is not that I give you light. I'm not giving you Reiki because you are Reiki already. Hopefully, during the Reiju, you can become aware that you are this luminosity already, maybe for a split second. This is why I like Mrs. Takata's translation: initiation. You will have maybe the initial experience that you are for a moment, maybe a split second, of, "Oh, here is my great bright light. Here is my no anger, no worry. Here is my compassion."
When we have that for an initial experience, we can use it as a seed, right, as a trace. Then we have to water that seed, of course. And it's very simple. Some people say, "Oh, but you'll only need one or two or five or four initiations depending on the lineage and tradition. And that's it." I don't believe in this. And it's very easy to test because the essence of the system of Reiki is the Precepts. If one initiation, Reiju, or attunement brings you into a full state of no more anger, no more worry, no more fear, etc.… Perfect! But we all know that even after 10 of those Reijus, that is definitely not the case. So it means one Reiju or one attunement, or four Reijus or four attunements are not enough.
You have to do it again and again. Again until one day, this initial experience is a full-blown experience. For the rest of your life, you're in this space of luminosity—no anger, no worry, and no fear. And even then, we have to receive more Reiju or attunements because even if I have a diamond and it's pure and clean, if I let it sit, it still attracts dust. So if I don't dust it, it becomes dusty. So again, we have to [keep practicing Reiju.] But nowadays, we are like, "No, only for only three!" And that's it for the rest of your life! Again, be honest with yourself and check for yourself. These four attunements or Reijus or initiation bring you into full space of no more anger, no more worry, no more fear, etc. Then we have to honestly say to ourselves, "No, that is not the case."

DIR: Every lineage has a very different approach. When we practice traditional Japanese style, we offer attunements in Reiki circles, which is frowned upon in some lineages. We all have different rules. But is there something you would recommend to anyone offering attunements, Western or traditional
FS: Well, again, it comes down to your own direct experience. To how deep have you laid bare your true self. That [is what] becomes essential. I often use a very simple explanation. It's a little bit like this. [Frans shows the light shining from his phone.] This is the great bright light. So if I do Reiju or even hands-healing on you and I come with my luminosity, I shine on you. Hopefully, you can find your luminosity. But if I am still in the dark, no light, because I haven't sat on my butt to do my practice, I still have a lot of anger and worry and fear, then I come to you and, of course, you might feel something. But you haven't had the possibility to find your light because my light is still covered with all this shit, right? True practice is that brightness is laid bare more and more and more and more and more. Then, of course, there is more possibility for you to find your luminosity. Sometimes we stick our luminosity in the furthest corner of our mind. So if only a weak light comes, that light is not reaching the light of the furthest corner of your mind. Does that make sense?
DIR: It makes total sense!
FS: The more I've laid bare my luminosity, my Great Bright Light, the more possibility there is for you [ to find yours during a Reiju.] But again, it always takes two to tango. So for you to "receive," [you need] to be empty, right? And this is, we often also don't know how to receive, because what does been empty mean? Empty of the self, empty of attachment, empty of worry, empty of fear, etc., etc.

DIR: Generally, I can see how sometimes when we have a very emotional or powerful Reiju, expectation can get in the way of a second one!
My next question is about Reijus related to upgrades. I want to have this podcast to present POV's and everybody will have a different POV on this. I don't want my next question to sound disrespectful to anyone. From the traditional Japanese POV, and yours specifically, what do you think of the concept of upgrades when it comes to the Reiki system?
FS: We only have to look at flower arrangement, Zen, in Japanese martial arts, all these Japanese traditions—they all talk about the same thing: non-Duality, right? And that you are the universe already. So how can I get an upgrade, right? An upgrade is dualistic. You have this, and now I get you this. And then, of course, six months later, they have to have another upgrade that probably costs a few hundred dollars. So, for me, it's a great marketing skill. [To put it] bluntly. And we fall for it because we want more upgrades. Why? We have them constantly on our phone: upgrade, next upgrade, wow! Now we have the iPhone 29, you know, X, Y Zed, and we get to buy it. Now we have an upgrade with our Reiki, and now we have Reiki Z Y Q what is even more powerful. But then we give our power away! Because we [already] are the universe. This is the most important element. What Mikao Usui is trying to tell us, and all these Japanese spiritual teachings as well. You are the universe, what means you have everything inside of you already.
DIR: In a way, it's an act of remembering.
FS: It's about remembering, yes!

DIR: What is your POV on remote a­ttunements? They're becoming a real point of dissent during the pandemic. So, I would love your honest opinion on them as well.
FS: I think this is a problem we have nowadays: that people think that [to practice] Reiki, all you have to do is have the attunement, and that's it. Now you are a Reiki 1. Now you're Reiki 2. Now a Reiki 3. They often think that the Reiki attunement makes you into a Reiki 1 [practitioner,] or makes you into a Reiki 2 or a Reiki 3. And we don't have to practice. "No, the energy is intelligent. It just flows wherever it's needed." We have simplified it so much, but if we think about it, like really, really clearly think about it, then ultimately we come to the conclusion that it doesn't make any sense at all. So, of course, healing, Reiju, we can go into that space beyond time, distance, non-duality. But if we are really honest, then that is very difficult.
Again, you can do the candle test. Do you burn yourself or not? So real non-duality is not easily experienced. And therefore also distance attunements or Reiju is not always [easy to experience.] we might say, "Of course it works!" Of course, we feel something. If I go, "Oh yeah, here it is. Yes, no, no. Now it's coming." Of course, something is taking place, but to learn the system of Reiki, we have to have not just the Reiju. We have to understand the Precepts. We have to understand the symbols and mantras. We have to understand hands-on healing. We have to understand the meditation practices. And ultimately, that is best done in person. Great that we have These kinds of things through Zoom. But you can only see me from [the chest up on the screen.] So even in some classes online, I can switch off my camera. I might be having a coffee and not participating in meditation. And we've done half of it. This is why all the Japanese teachers like Hiroshi Doi, Hyakuten Inamoto, etc., all tell us: please do not teach Reiki 1, 2, and 3 online. They are quite against it. And because they know there is so much more to just the attunement or Reiju.

DIR: No, I love that because I think the discussion has centered more on, "Do I get an appointment online or not," versus, "Will understand I understand the system well?" I think we put too much weight on the attunement when the everyday practice is what really makes a difference. Like I got attunements, some were wonderful, but after a few days I didn't practice, the "feeling" or "energy" faded. I hear a lot of people saying that "My Reiki is gone."
FS: This is it. Absolutely. The other day I heard someone say something that you can just draw a symbol over someone, and they are protected. That's it! Very easy. And I go if you can do this, please do it to everybody! We don't need a vaccine for [the] Corona [virus] because they're protected! No more Corona in the world. Just go and stand on Trafalgar square and draw [the first Reiki symbol] on every person, and then next! And then you teach it to someone else. So you give them a quick attunement, and now they can draw the symbol over everybody else. And everybody's protected, and no one has Corona anymore. And they go, "What? Eh? No, no, it doesn't work like that!" Yes, but you told me that you are protected when you draw this symbol on yourself or over someone. So, we have not just to be a parrot and repeat something. We have to think about it. And this is the most important thing. How can we think about it? [Sitting] on our butt and calming our mind so that we see things clearly.

DIR: We talk a lot about the concept of protection in Reiki, especially in Western lineages, but these probably represent 80-to-90% practitioners, at least in the United States. I do Reiju as a practice, not only a ritual, and one day it hit me: how can I be completely open If I'm protecting myself? Is protection coming from a place of worry which is not in alignment with the Precepts? Can you elaborate a little bit on the concept of protection within the system of Reiki?
FS: Well, I think it's generally in everything. The idea we have to ask ourselves is, why do you want to protect yourself? Right? And then we come to a conclusion, [that is out of] fear and worry. Fear, or worry of the self, right? Of the "I." "I" might pick something up. Now "I" have your issues. So it's all about the "I" again. When we soften that "I": no self, no problem, right? Therefore, [we need to practice] wide open. And this often is seen as being spacious, like space: wide open. We cannot damage space whatsoever. I can get a knife, I can cut here, but space will not be damaged. We need to understand that our true mind is like space. And again, Mikao Usui pointed this out very clearly in his teachings with practices like Joshin Kokyu Ho and the symbols and mantras in Reiki 2 and 3.

DIR: You've been practicing Reiki for many years. How do you keep your practice fresh and juicy? What is your goal for the next few years?
FS: I've never been really goal orientated at all— in work or life. It doesn't interest me. I'm just doing what I'm doing. An old friend who lives in Haarlem, where I live now, [asked me] "Oh, Frans, you'll be doing this for the rest of your life?" And I said, "If I don't like it anymore, I'll do something else, go and work at the supermarket or whatever." He goes, "Really?" I said, "Yeah, else I will do my students a disservice." I'm not very goal orientated. I'm just enjoying the moment as much as I can. It's not always easy. For me, the practice, again, is just being as much as possible in that space of non-attachment and beginner's mind.
When we have a goal, we're also holding on very tight: I want this. When we hold tight, nothing can move. So we have to practice with open hands. Then everything else stays juicy. This is not only in Reiki's system but [it's also in life.]. This is why practicing the system of Reiki is how we practice life. Right? If I hold my relationship like this [Frans closes his fist], then it will be suffocated. If I hold my work life like [Frans closes his fist again], suffocation. So, to keep it fresh, we have to hold it in an open hand, right? Without anger and worry and fear. It's very tricky to do and no attachment. Because if today, I sit and go, "Oh man, this is a really good meditation." And tomorrow I practice, and I go, "It's not so good." Why do I think it's not so good? Because I compare it to yesterday's meditation.
If we can stop comparing: problem solved. But this is the hardest part: to stop comparing. We can see this within the Precepts. Often people say, "Oh, but the precepts don't have the word comparing in it." No, not really? And they go, no, there's "no anger, no worry, no fear." But if you look deep within the Precepts, of course, you come to the word comparing. Not in written form, but it's hidden in the inner meaning of the Precepts. Why do we worry? Why do we get angry? We come again to comparing. And so if we can stop or soften out comparing, then our practice [and] life stay juicy.

DIR: Your practice is very joyful. That has been an inspiration for me. I only teach if I will enjoy it. Whenever it starts to feel like a chore, then I take a break.
FS: It's tricky [when] people start to practice Reiki to earn a living. I don't think it's a good thing. We [should] practice to have a direct experience of our great luminosity, of our inner luminosity. Then we can share that as a "living" or earn some money. Dogen, a Zen master, and I think I'm paraphrasing here, said: "within food and clothing, there is no enlightenment, but within enlightenment, there is food and clothing." And you know, for me, this is so important. We have to check also as Reiki teachers and practitioners what our motivation is?

DIR: Many of us are struggling to make a living, especially with the pandemic. Often when we learn Reiki 2, we want to turn it into our business because we enjoy it so much. But it's not easy to set up a business, and we are not well trained as entrepreneurs. And then, to make money, we start sacrificing or just changing our practice. And yet, the most successful Reiki practitioners are people who are living the Precepts. OK, and some people who are terrific marketing people as well! In my case, I'm grateful to freelance as a writer because it allows me to live my practice as I want to. Sometimes, however, I worry about practitioners just finishing a certification of a few hours thinking they are ready for professional practice because a paper says so.
FS: Yeah. Then we come back to integrity ultimately, right? Being honest. But we live in such an instant gratification [society]: quick, quick, quick; now I am a Reiki "master."

DIR: We have all been through that! I struggled to establish a daily practice, but this makes me appreciate a lot more because now I have a more profound practice. It's something one doesn't want to sacrifice that easily!
FS: Absolutely. This is why I like going to my teacher in Japan. A) he presses buttons. He's not taking any prisoners. He's checking to see; do I get angry? Do I get worried? Do I get fearful? Etc. He's keeping tabs on how I practice, the way I teach, and the way I behave. [Japanese priests] are very dedicated. I mean, [we're talking] about practicing from like four in the morning, till 11 at night for a week and a half or three weeks. Making sure you have as many direct experiences of your great bright line as possible.

DIR: Do you ever get angry?
FS: [Laughs.] I do get angry sometimes. But I think when I'm getting angry, you don't want to be in my neighborhood. I can't remember the last day that I got really angry. It was a long, long time ago. But then I have this; I don't know. I'm a Leo. And I feel like there's this black coming off my eyes, and I could bite someone's head off. I rarely have that kind of anger. It happened, of course, in the past. But I can't remember the exact date anymore—it was a long time ago!

DIR: I want my head to stay on my neck, so I hope I never see you angry! For those who want to reach you, where can they find you, Frans?
FS: They can find me on my website, www.IHReiki.com, or Facebook under Frans Stiene, or the International House of Reiki.

DIR: There are no words to express my gratitude for this podcast for just being the bright light that you are. FS: Always great to hang out with you and practice together. Yeah, I think this is important to laugh and have fun and do great things!

Nicholas Pearson has been a practitioner of Usui Reiki Ryoho since 2006. He has received initiation and training in various Reiki lineages, including Jikiden Reiki, Usui Shiki Ryoho, Usui/Tibetan Reiki, and Komyo ReikiDo. The award-winning author of six books, including Foundations of Reiki Ryoho and Crystal Basics, Nicholas is also a Certified Medical Reiki Master and offers training in Usui Reiki Ryoho and crystal healing around the world. He lives in Orlando, Florida, with his partner and photographer extraordinaire, Steven. And today it's a very special day because it's his birthday!

DIVE INTO REIKI: Nicholas, I've got a fantastic day to interview you; thank you so much. I wanted to start with what was your first contact with Reiki practice?
NICHOLAS PEARSON: So, my first glimpse of what Reiki may be would probably go back to my high-school days. I was really involved in all things spiritual, metaphysical, esoteric. Anything I could get my hands on, I would just devour. And I'd seen this thing called Reiki. I knew it was something out there, but I didn't have any direct first-hand experience with it until I was in college, and I had the opportunity to take a class while I was in between semesters. I want to say it was right after my sophomore year in college. My first Reiki teacher had this beautiful center in the Treasure Coast, in Southeast Florida, and I had been teaching at her store for a couple of years by then, classes mostly on things related to stones. And I had this chance to sit in on a Reiki 1 class, and it was life-changing. It was really this beautiful experience. She imparted such reverence and respect for Japan and Japanese culture—Patricia herself is half Japanese. She really made sure she gave us a glimpse of what the parent culture of Reiki was. I was obsessed after that point. I needed to know everything. I had to read every book, do everything, and devote myself to my practice, and here is where we are today.

DIR: I know a lot about Reiki, but I don't think I've read a tenth of the books you've read. Your knowledge is really huge. What drove you to dig deeper and read all of these books. Most of us stick with our eight-hour training, and then we practice. Can you tell me what sparked that curiosity and how many lineages did you study?
NP:  I started with my first teacher, who was a member of the International Center for Reiki Training. So the first couple of classes I took from her were more like one may call Usui Tibetan Ryoho. She really tried to de-Westernize it as much as possible. Kind of situate it within the context of Japanese culture and language. She taught us the precepts in Japanese. I immediately started to recite them morning and evening, if not more often, in Japanese. I learned to write them in Japanese. I began to teach myself the language. That fueled my curiosity even more. I read about everything I could get my hands on. That was the core of my practice for a few years. Just sticking to what I had learned from my first teacher. Then, in the spring of 2009, I had the opportunity to go to Japan. While I was there, I visited Saihoji temple, which where Usui's memorial stone and his family's grave are. I went to Mount Kurama, of course, to spend a day in retreat on the mountain.
A few short days after that, I had been connected with an international Reiki share and this community, to which I was introduced by my friend Richard, the sort of founder of it, the teacher in residence there, she gave away Reiki training for free, frequently, avidly. She knew that I was scheduled to complete my Shinpiden, my third-degree teacher training with my original teacher when I came back from Japan, but she initiated me into Usui Shiki Ryoho, a very Westernized lineage in a Buddhist temple in Inaricho, Tokyo. Later I would go on to study very traditional Japanese Reiki here in the US and central Florida, as well as in Toronto, Canada. I've studied Jikiden Reiki. I've taken the Shoden and Okuden training a couple of times, once with Frank Arjava sensei. And another time when I was in Toronto, I got to study with… Hyakuten Inamoto. In between trainings, my original teacher, Patricia, studied with Hyakuten as well as with Hiroshi Doi. And so she began to incorporate more Japanese practices into the teachings as I kind of advanced through the ranks in studying with her. There are components of what I learned through her that are very Gendai Reiki centric and very Komyo Reiki centric. So these days, I don't owe a particular allegiance to one school or one tradition. I certainly don't give away secrets that I wouldn't feel authorized to, but what I teach is at least in spirit inspired by all of the different styles that I've encountered sometimes by just interviewing other people or doing primary or secondary research and other times through training.

DIR: And I think that's a great thing. I feel we are in a time when lineages are starting to be more open-minded, but there was such a separation of information before. Bringing lineages together is also part of the mission, right?
NP:  Yeah. You know, there are a lot of misconceptions about lineage and form of practice, not just in Reiki, but I would say in a lot of things designed by humans. Generally, we get in our heads about it, or we get into our egos about it. Having a shorter lineage doesn't make us any more successful than having a longer one; only practice does. So I think every time I've had the opportunity to receive training, as well as to give training, it has been a learning experience. We are continually coming back to center, coming back to home, coming back to the true self in our practice, whether that is by laying on of hands, whether that is through meditation, whether that is through reflecting on or reciting the precepts, any of those external tools are just getting us back to home. The Western model of taking the class once and then going out into the world is one way of going around it. But I think maybe it's just that sort of Japanese spirit that was instilled upon me without being able to do apprentice for a long time. I found another way around that by just applying myself to the study over and over again.

DIR:  I love that. There are a couple of very important things I want to highlight from what you said. First, that a shorter lineage doesn't mean better practice or more energy. Daily practice and consistency actually are what deepen your practice. The other is letting go do the idea that a lineage is better than another or that a certificate determines the kind of practitioner you are.
I know you're an eternal student—you will probably study Reiki until the day you die in 60, 90 years, like in the future—but you also started teaching. Tell me a little bit about what made you go, "Okay, I study, I practice, and now I'm actually ready to also teach"?

NP:  I had a pretty healthy lapse of time between being authorized to teach and feeling ready to teach. I really wanted to internalize the practice before I really got there. And it wasn't a confidence issue. It wasn't that I felt unready to teach at large. I've been teaching classes on crystals and other esoteric topics since I was a teenager, honestly. So it really was just about having the diligence, the devotion, the centeredness in my Reiki practice that no matter what curveball I was going to encounter in the classroom, I was going to be able to come from it from the right Reiki space. That whatever mishaps were going to happen, because we're human beings, someone's going to arrive late. Someone is going to have to excuse themselves. Someone is going to, you know, not be prepared for class in some way. And that includes me. I showed up missing important papers once or twice in my early days, but I knew I was ready to teach when first and foremost, the act of doing a Reiju or initiation was second nature. So I didn't need to refer to my notes. I didn't have to stop and go, "Okay, what comes after I put my hands here?" I really needed to feel like that was a fluid process. And then the other part was my, my great desire to put more Reiki into the world, superseded any, anything about me. It had to be about Reiki.

Nicholas Pearson.

DIR: When we talked together, we're saying how important it is to keep the practice's spirit versus making it transactional. Like, yes, it may be a business, but we cannot lose that passion, that goal of sharing a spiritual practice where people can reconnect with their true self. I love that you practiced Reiju (attunements) every month.
NP: Yeah. After I got the Shinpiden initiation in Florida when I came back from Japan, I would practice all of the attunements or initiations for every level, at least once a month. Without having a real live human being in front of me every time I really use a crystal skull. I got this lovely friend that came back from Japan with me is carved out of Himalayan courts, and I'd sit them in a chair and imagine he was, you know, normal human height and just kind of place my hands where his head ought to be. And just go through that process every single month for quite a long time. And the way I originally learned to do Reiju was in the very Western style. So it was a different process for the first degree, then second degree, then the third degree, which I learned in two parts. So it was really four different attunement ceremonies. So I would practice all four of them every month. I started to experiment with other ones that I found in books kind of indiscriminately. I wanted to see what, what were the core elements in different styles of Reiju. Even to this day, I really loved seeing how, no matter how different the external form of that ritual is, it takes us to the same space if we do it authentically if we really put ourselves into that space.

DIR: I think that is the important thing, the core of the Reiju as a practice versus a ritual that you can do according to your notes. You mentioned that before, and I think that it's really important for us to understand—and that, as a practitioner, you also gain a lot of healing from offering Reiju. Those are things that we discuss a lot between some of us, but there are not common knowledge to the greater extent of the community, so I really appreciate that you're sharing that. And so I still love that skull story; I practice with my yoga mat. I call it Bernard!
I would love for you to share what is your daily practice, and how often do you change it? So, Some of us struggle to establish a daily practice. We have so many tools in the system. People wonder, "What do I practice every day?" Or, "I'm really busy. How can I make sure Reiki is part of my daily life?"
NP:  When I am at my most diligent, my ideal practice looks like chanting, or at least reflecting on the precepts twice a day, morning and evening. Usually just out of bed, and sometimes as I'm going to bed. I also love to do the breathing exercise called Joshin Kokyu Ho or the method for the purification of the heart-mind with the breath. That is my favorite meditation I've ever learned from any system I've ever been taught, not just Reiki, but generally. I like to do that twice a day. It doesn't always happen, but I really like to do that. And then, I follow that up with hands-on practice. Most of the time it's just letting my hands rest, wherever feels comfortable. And just being there, if I'm in need of Reiki as intervention, rather than Reiki as a spiritual practice, of course, I'm going to put my hands where I need them, if I've stubbed toe or, you know, run into a wall and bruised my knee as I'm very prone to do. I, of course, do that all day long. Anytime I have a spare hand.
Reiki seems to be at work when things are less certain or when time is certainly we'll say more pressed in my life. I will often kind of simplify and just be present with Reiki morning and evening. And then any other free time that I've got. If I don't have the chance to do Joshin Kokyu Ho as a separate meditation practice, I find myself focusing on my breath when I am on the drive to work or when I am in the shower, or if I'm washing dishes, waiting to start a new task at work—in between, I just naturally draw the breath, draw Reiki, draw light down into the Hara, the point below the belly button and let it expand on the out-breath. I let as many waking moments as I can be part of my practice.

DIR: Yeah, I use Joshin Kokyu Ho a lot. I always joke saying it's the best breeding for the subway rush hour in New York. We don't have any more rush hour, but it was the only way, like when things were crazy in New York, you just took that breath into the Hara, expand, and it was amazing what could cope with crazy things. It's good to have these tools and not to see them as something separate from daily life.  
I love the fact that we can simplify, right? So sometimes we have a formula. We feel that if we can't do everything, then we can't practice daily. But if we can just place our hands with awareness, we can just breathe with awareness and bring Reiki into our lives wherever we are, as you say, even doing the dishes—which is a very Zen way of putting it—it's no longer separate from your life.
I would love for you to discuss what is the core of the system for you? For some people, it's hands-on healing; for other people, it's the precepts. What is the core of the system in your personal experience?
NP: More and more, I'm kind of coming to the practice from this almost like metaspace. It's not about what Reiki does. It's about what our experience of Reiki is. It's not trying to measure Reiki as energy but letting Reiki be a phenomenon unto itself. I think the core of the practice is our experience of non-duality. And we might use lots of different ways to phrase that. We might experience the symptoms of that or the effects of that in a lot of different ways. So it might be from the hands-on healing. I mean, how many times have you just sat there in meditation, with your hands on a client, and you can't tell what your hands begin, and the body ends, and so on. And that's this beautiful experience of oneness. It's the same with the Shirushi and Jumon—the symbols and mantras. As we use those, are we changing those words, or are the words chanting us? There's a sense of total unity when we get into Reiki. I think that is the experience of the true self. Hyakuten sensei says that Reiki exists beyond the worlds of the pair of opposites. So, in other words, it's in the space beyond duality, beyond polarity. And if we go into our practice with an open heart, that is what we achieve. And I imagine that must be what was Usui sensei experienced at least in part on the mountain top when, when the system of Reiki was born,

DIR: I love that emphasis on phenomenon. We discussed this quite a bit during the pre-interview. Many of us see Reiki just as an energy-healing modality, which it is, or an energy-balancing one. Some of us only see it perhaps as a mindfulness practice, but it's actually all of the above. And even more than, right? It's really, as you said, a phenomenon, non-duality. But to experience that, you need to practice consistently. You may experience it in an attunement or initiation with your master, but you need deep practice to reach that level.
I wanted to ask you a couple of tips to deepen our practice if we're starting a journey or perhaps a Reiki 2 but don't have a consistent approach. You said a sentence that I loved because there is a lot of repetition in consistent Reiki practice: "Reiki is never boring if you observe." So I wondered if you could elaborate on that as a tip to deepen your Reiki practice.
NP: Sure. This is something that I experienced, I think most transparently in Jikiden Reiki training. That phrase that Reiki is never boring, treatment is never boring, that's something that I actually picked up from Frank Arjava Petter. Hayashi sensei really took this concept of byosen, which is a term coined by Usui sensei. Actually, in Japanese, it sounds quasi-medical. Even the Usui Reiki Ryoho Gakkai, the society is not super keen on overusing the word because they don't want to be perceived as practicing medicine without the proper licensing. But this concept of byosen, which literally means like sick and gland or lump or accumulation, is like the energetic echo of what our disruptions and disharmonies might be. They may ultimately lead to physical illness. They may be those hollow places in our hearts that need loving. They might just be an experience of not being in sync with the true self. Who knows? It's not our job as Reiki practitioners to diagnose or figure that out.
There are regular rhythms and patterns to the sensation of byosen, the energetic sensations. Hayashi sensei mapped these out. And he gave it like five different degrees of intensity, from the most gentle work up to intense heat and a vibration into a pulsing or throbbing. And even to an experience of discomfort, or itami, which means pain and Japanese. You'll find that certain illnesses follow a pattern. Certain people, no matter where they are in their health journey, always have similar byosen. And if you just watch the sort of rising and fall of the energy, if you watch the phenomenon of Reiki interacting with a human, whether that's yourself or someone else, it's never boring.
You could just sit there for hours and go, "Oh, byosen is less intense this time." And maybe 30 minutes later, when it reaches a peak in its cycle, you go, "Hmm, about the same as last time." And you just watch. I think that's really something that I wish more schools of Reiki would pay attention to. So many times in the West, we learn a set number of hand positions, and it's okay, five minutes here, five minutes here, five minutes here. And you go through the motion, and you give someone a fantastic treatment. It's a very full spectrum kind of treatment, but how deep are you going in five minutes? And if that's all you know, any longer than five minutes gets uncomfortable. So if we start instead to just observe what Reiki is, what the experience of Reiki is for yourself as a practitioner, even as a recipient, it transforms things. You could sit there all day and never get tired of watching that byosen rise and fall.

DIR: I love the fact you say, "just watching." Not fixing. To hold the space, letting go, and just observing and allowing, I think it's also a very important thing to do in your practice.
NP:  For sure. Reiki is very well suited to what the world is going through at large right now because Reiki is an exercise in surrender. There is very little about Reiki where we are in control of anything. But there's very little about life where we're actually in control of anything either. So there's no surprise there. The gift is conscious surrender, a conscious relationship with the phenomenon that Reiki comes from getting out of the way. Even when someone on the table is receiving hands-on healing and has a miraculous recovery, you haven't done anything. Their bodies did everything; their mind, their spirit, their soul, their whole being has been involved in this. All you did was hold space for them and allowed the phenomenon of Reiki to take place. We might not even be able to measure that as an energy in the physics sense because Reiki kind of breaks the rules of physics in some ways.

DIR: That's the amazing part. When we talked last time, we discussed the need to release the expectation that you will be fixed or become better with Reiki practice.
NP: Reiki isn't about fixing, doing changing, manipulating, pushing, pulling. There are wonderful energy healing techniques that do all of those things. And I don't want anyone whose practice that incorporates those to feel less than by it. But the heart of Reiki is not those things. And instead of trying to make things better and fix and correct, if we allow, if we look for the inherent perfection that's already there… I can make the analogy to the mineral kingdom here. We see such beauty in crystals. You know, here's this flawless one that comes from Colombia, almost optically clear all the way through. But at a molecular level, there are tiny imperfections in there, and nature is perfectly imperfect. We are part and parcel of nature. We are representations of nature. Of course, we all have our little quirks and foibles, whether that's in a material sense with our body and its functions or in a psychological sense. I don't think any of us is free of psychological quirks. If we allow those to be the perfected state, then we aren't judging, and we aren't trying to fix, and we have no expectation. And it's really that surrender of expectation or real magic happens.

DIR: We're saying Reiki is gentle, but it is very powerful. You were talking about the effects Reiki practice has had in your life. So the fact that it's gentle and noninvasive doesn't mean that it's less powerful.
NP:  Yeah. Of all the techniques that I have learned, one of the ones that has helped me the most in a very tangible way is Reiki. When I was a freshman in college, my mental well-being kind of reached a dramatic crossroads. I had this massive anxiety and panic disorder. I couldn't sleep through the night without a panic attack. I couldn't keep food down for the stress. I was a musician, and I certainly had a lot of expectations heaped on me. And then I added my own on top of that. It was not the greatest time of my life. I will say I had some really beautiful, wonderful experiences as a musician in the school of music. But my body and my heart-mind were not in perfect alignment with the soul.
So Reiki allowed me to kind of change my focus from the external tools. I was doing all the things that someone should do, like seeing a qualified mental health care practitioner. And I was trying the pharmaceutical route, and we never quite found the right mix of things that "cured" me. I was managing things with meditation and changes in my diet. I was, of course, turning to my gemstone allies. I was taking flower essences, which certainly were probably the biggest boon. And then, all of a sudden, I learned Reiki, and I had that tool everywhere I went. I didn't have to look for a rock in my pocket. I didn't have to carry around a little dropper bottle. I didn't have to make an appointment with someone else. Wellness was right here [places hands on heart.] And [I gained] the gift of surrender. My biggest trigger for my mental wellbeing has always been uncertainty, not knowing, and then I play this really wonderful game of worrying about what comes next. I think somewhere in the book, I say that I have a masterful ability to worry about anything. It's really like one of the greatest skills I've got. It's not useful; it doesn't help anything at all. But Reiki allowed me to surrender those worries and just be in the stillness. And that is big to cut through the chatter of what if and what happens next and waiting for the other shoe to drop, instead of just waiting with that expectancy. I could just be.

DIR: That is a huge gift, and especially when it comes to uncertainty. It's very useful, given the times that we're going through. So I wanted to close the Reiki part, asking what your Reiki goal is? Because you already have many years of practice, you've written amazing, beautiful boots… Is there something in terms of personal spiritual practice or other goals you would like to share with us today?
NP:  I think one of the things that I always strive for, and it's not always been like a spoken kind of rule, but one of the things that I've always held myself to is trying to create avenues for different lineages to find commonality. I fancy myself an armchair academic. I don't have any sort of pedigreed degree, but I really love to analyze and do the very intellectual kind of thing—which doesn't really change anyone's practice unless you make it.
What I really love about the learning and the teaching and the history and everything else is that it shows us what is common about everyone. If we understand how our forms of practice differ, like at what point they branched off, where changes happen, we can also appreciate the similarities. I'm hoping that by trying to get more of that message out there. Certainly, there is some fantastic academics who are doing that work brilliantly, being able to boost their signal, informing other people about their work, sharing my own insights from research and from personal practice. That has been really helpful for me. If we know what makes us different, we can also identify what makes us the same. And no matter what lineage we practice, no matter what our form of practice looks like, no matter what kind of attunement or how many we've had, what happens here [pointing towards his hand] is the same. And if it isn't, then we're doing something else, and there's nothing wrong with doing something else that it's not Reiki. So you know, fundamentally, I really love getting us back to what is that common point.

DIR: I'm very grateful that is your goal! It's incredible for you, but it's really good for all of us. I love what you said at the end because we get a lot caught in the details of how we move the hands or place the hands, but the core of the practice is still that space of oneness, love, and compassion. And that's it. Surrendering to it. Even though some days I put words in a very Latin, passionate way, it is about that beautiful stillness that we cannot really describe with words very well.
Moving on to crystals. I was really impressed when you told me you were teaching crystal classes at 18. I was kind of a precautious child, and I felt super slow compared to you. Amazing. So if you can talk a little bit about how you discovered crystals and what sparked your interest in them.
NP: I think I just came into body this time around with some deep relationship with the middle kingdom. I have memories of very early childhood compulsively picking up rocks. Like they were, they were sacred treasures. I mean, it could be gravel from the driveway, and I could find something beautiful in that. Over the years, my grandfather, I think, probably was the first to do anything about that. He gave me my first proper quartz crystal, and the rest is history. I just was so fascinated with the idea that this inner part of our environment could be elevated to something, you know, transparent like this and had regular angles and form. And then to see the variations, I mean, to look at this piece of white-capped amethyst from Veracruz, Mexico and the optically clear quartz from Colombia or anything else, and understand that they're fundamentally the same and tiny little differences that just fascinates me to no end.
I wanted to learn as much science I could, but I knew there was something mystical about rocks. And when other families did church on weekends, my dad and I would go to the library together. I would check out as many things as I thought I was allowed to. Funny story, I thought that people could only take four books out of the library at a time like there was a firm limit because my dad wanted me to focus on just the things I would actually read in two weeks. And it might be science one week, it might be fairytales and folklore the next. It could be world mythology or archeology. I started to see that cultures around the world use very similar symbols and metaphors to explain a natural phenomenon and that science and religion, and spirituality are ultimately pointing us in the same direction. They're just using a different lexicon, a different set of vocabulary to help us experience the world and all the phenomena within it.
My approach to studying crystals has always been a little bit of the science side and a little bit of this spiritual side. And I found that in, in crystal healing, I, there there's a place for the two to interact. And that was, that was really what cemented my spiritual practice. Everything kind of revolved around rocks for a very long time. And finally, I was invited to start teaching. Finally, you know, I was so old at 18, right?

DIR: That's incredible!
NP:  By that point, I'd been collecting for 10 years. I built up a very extensive practice on myself. I rarely helped other people except to gift them rocks, maybe with a set of instructions. But my practice has gone the full circle from being very, very complex to be very, very simple—these days kind of vacillates between the poles, depending on the necessities of life.

DIR: When you went to college, and you told me the story that actually rocks were following you, right?
NP:  I went to Stetson University in DeLand, Florida, maybe an hour or so outside Orlando, where I live now. I went there because it has this fabulous music school beautiful campus, a very historical kind of institution. When I enrolled, part of my federal student aid was the work-study program. I found out I worked at this place called the Gillespie Museum. I figured it was an art museum. I enrolled really late, so they probably put me with visual arts instead of with all the music stuff because that had been assigned already. Finally, I come to the conclusion that if I showed up to work, someone would give me money. This is a very motivating thing for me is a Capricorn. I asked one of the upperclassmen, a trumpet player, "So where is this Gillespie Museum?" And he just gives me the strangest look. He goes like, "Gillespie? Why on earth would you want to go to the rock museum?" And I just landed in like, "We have a what?" So I marched straight down. It was closed after rehearsal. I went home, I typed out an email. I left a voicemail. I followed up as soon as the doors opened the next morning. And they let me have my job. And I got to dive into mineral science on my own.
They actually awarded me a new position. They created a role for me at the museum as the preparatory for the collection. I was really in charge of keeping things organized and sorted and helping to come up with new exhibits that matched the programming that another student staff was working on. It was this really wonderful thing; they let me check out mineral specimens as if they're books in the library. I don't think it's ever happened before or since, but it was this wonderful relationship. I never got to complete a degree. So I left the school with this sort of empty place in my heart, an unfulfilled expectation that hung around for a very long time. After I had my first book published, I reconnected with the museum and with the new director, and we worked together with some of the professors in the religious studies program, the archeology program, and created an exhibit inspired by my first book, The Seven Archetypal Stones, which is still there. I still have things on loan to the museum to this day. It's been this really healing place for me to be able to work with academia as a not official academic and really feel seen and heard for the work that I do with rocks.

DIR: That's so sweet. Can you explain what the fundamental functions employed by all crystals for healing are?
NP: Absolutely. So after a lot of soul searching and trying to find the parallels between the physics of energy at large and the optics, physics, mechanics of crystals, in particular, I have kind of distilled this shortlist of the fundamental things that all crystals do.
First and foremost, crystals are harmonizers. They take energy, and they make it more coherent. Which is to say that they organize it in some way, allow it to march in step. A side effect of this is coherent energy fields. Coherent systems have higher amplitude. We could say it's as if they have a louder volume. You can detect them from much farther away. People often talk about crystals as being amplifiers of energy, but that's the side effect of making energy more coherent.
Crystals are also adept at sending and receiving messages or signals or information or energy. However, we want to paint the metaphor, essentially they're kind of like antennas that send and receive. They can broadcast on multiple frequencies, multiple wavelengths at the same time. Kind of similar to the way the fractal antennas inside our cell phones and other technology does— the unit cells of those are inspired by crystals themselves.
Crystals are also translators of energy. They can help us shift from this sort of inner dialogue into the language that the cosmos speaks… When the crystal structure, the lattice itself is deformed or placed under pressure, it converts that mechanical energy into electrical energy, and it does it in reverse as well. If you're got a watch or a timepiece, there's a little sliver of quartz that gets zapped by the battery, and it begins to quiver, and it oscillates, and your watch is counting the number of oscillations, and that's how it keeps time.
Those are some of the fundamental functions of crystals. It's kind of where I based my practice, finding the science and the spirituality and how they overlap. Looking for those things we can at least measure in some way with physics or with science. At the end of the day, energy, like when we heal with Reiki or like we experience with crystal healing, is a subtle thing. We don't yet have a device that can measure all of it. There's something out there, but I would assume it has to follow the same kinds of rules as the measurable energies. So if we stick with those as our model or a metaphor, we can understand the rest of what's happening too.

DIR: How do you incorporate crystals in your Reiki practice, and what's your POV on doing so?
NP:  A lot of people assume that since I'm Mr. Crystal— I've got five books out now on rocks—that my Reiki sessions must include a lot of quartz or a lot of other things. My Reiki practice is my Reiki practice, and my crystal practice is my crystal practice. And if under other circumstances, not during a pandemic, when I'm seeing clients, if they request the two together, they'll get it. But otherwise, I allowed them to be their own separate entity. And that has been, for me, a really great blessing because it allows me to just be with Reiki, with new expectations.
The simplicity and the surrender that I experience in Reiki has also informed a lot of my crystal practice. Rather than all the complicated doings that I was fond of in my earlier years, a lot of is just sitting and observing what happens when I breathe with this stone. What happens when I hold it to my heart? What happens when I create a geometric arrangement and a crystal grid and just allowing it to be. I appreciate both [Reiki and crystal practice.] They're both part and parcel of my everyday experience. I'm wearing rocks now. I've got them in my pockets when I go out into the world, and I'm practicing Reiki at home and when I out into the world. But it's not necessarily as if I'm performing crystal healing and Reiki healing at the same time in a combined kind of way. It's very organic.

DIR: I like what you are saying. They are both beautiful practices and can be very powerful, but crystals won't improve your Reiki practice. A lot of times, as Reiki practitioners, we think that if we add session will be deeper, more intense. Crystals are a modality. If you want to do both is fine, but you should never add them because you fear that your Reiki sessions are not strong enough. It's an important point to make.
You also said something very interesting: Reiki can do no harm if performed from a space of non-doing. Crystals, however—if you don't have some expertise—actually are a little bit more delicate in that sense. Can you elaborate a little on that?
NP:  Yeah. It's certainly not the kind of PSA I like to start a crystal class with. I think if we empower people to act intelligently, no harm is going to befall. But a really great example is the sort of obsession you see with these high frequencies and high vibration stones out there. People become space cadets. It's very easy to have too much of a good thing. And all things require balance. Reiki is a complete system unto itself. There's no such thing as too much or too little; you can't do harm. There are no contraindications. But you can do too much of a particular stone. And that particular stone might not be the same for two different people because they are very precise things. They are a part of this world of the pair of opposites. They exist as very unique sets of frequencies and amplitudes. It's like trying to find the right key and the right lock and joining them to experience that healing process. While some things might be fairly universal, it's easy to overdo it.
If you are not really sensitive to energies, if you don't consider yourself really tuned in or intuitive, it's possible to maybe cause discomfort for someone. While any healing system can cause discomfort when we touch those parts of the soul, consciously or not, where we're trauma is hidden, certainly release can take place. But with crystals, it can be forcible if we don't come from that space of observing and allowing, instead of forcing and fixing.

DIR: And I love one thing you said about when we do the crystal grid, we could do it as a meditation, as an act of presence and being with the stones. Sometimes I read some posts that imply that a practitioner does the crystal grid, so the grid does their daily Reiki practice or healing for them. How could you do a very simple crystal grade or sit with us crystal in a way that is not disempowering and allows you to go deeper into your practice?
NP:  Sure. Let's start with a single stone. Let's imagine someone only has one crystal in their practice. It was a gift from a friend, or they picked up a pebble from their favorite beach. The first thing we can do is just observe it with our regular eyes. Find good lighting and turn it every which way in the light. If you can see through it, try to look into the heart of that stone. My favorite thing to do, I'm a more visually inclined person… is to close [my] eyes and try to recreate the image of it in [my] mind.
If you're a more tactile person, feel it delicately. If it's sharp or fragile. Don't injure yourself or your rock. See if you can kind of create that tangible textual kind of map of the stone. Get to a place where you can really hold the concept or the idea of the stone if you're neither visual nor any other kind of way, inside you.
On the one level, doing this gives your conscious mind something to focus on. That's great because if it's distracted, the real work can take place under that level. But it's also a way for you to enter into the space of wonder. Wonder is a necessary part of spiritual experience. If you can't have awe and just be amazed at what's happening in the world around you, then give up, right? If there's no beauty or joy in your practice, you have to find a way to create it. Start on that really fundamental level and then take things deeper. Then just sit with a stone. And instead of trying to force the energy or say that, you know, I read that rhodonite goes on my heart chakra, so I'm going to put it there, and it's going to heal my heart chakra. What if you just sit with rhodonite and observe what happens with your energy field when you introduce it? Maybe you're going to feel called to place it someplace else. Maybe it's on one of those energy centers. Maybe it's in a place where you hold physical pain in your body. Maybe you're just going to look at it and weep. That's okay too. Having that space of non-judgment.
As we get comfortable with singles stones, then we can kind of get more elaborate and build crystal grids. A real simple way to do that is to get a handful of inexpensive quartz crystals and arrange them in a circle. Depending on the school of thought, you might have them facing in, or you might have them facing outward. You might have them kind of lined up in a circle. Do what works for you.
When you want to make these Reiki crystal grids, bless every stone, charge every stone, cleanse every stone. Do it often and make it an intentional meditative act instead of going through the motions so you can take a shortcut. I'm all for shortcuts. There are plenty of ways we can do it. Reiki itself is kind of a shortcut because it's pretty automatic. Once you build that muscle, it just happens. Crystals themselves can be kind of a shortcut. They're catalysts. They lessen the amount of energy or effort required to achieve a particular effect. So they take us places farther, but it's only when we do it with a conscious and conscientious relationship. There is no substitute for that.

DIR: You mentioned once that you could never cleanse your crystals enough.
NP:  I think 2020 taught us all that there's no such thing as too much washing of our hands within reason. It's hard to go overboard with that. It's the same energetically. You have to practice good psychic and spiritual hygiene. Practice good hygiene of your heart and your emotions. So cleanse your crystals often. We change our socks every day. Why not change the rest of our energies every day, too. Especially if it's a crystal that's a hard worker and it's gone with you out into the world, give it a rest every night. Let it breathe. Let it take its own sort of energetic shower, Just like you're going to hop into the shower. And you'll be amazed at what that can do for the end result.

DIR: I still haven't washed mine! I'll have to do that. If there was only one crystal you could take to a deserted island, which one would that be and why?
NP: It's like asking someone their favorite child: it's hard to answer, but you probably have one. Mine is rhodonite. I don't know if I could say that it is my absolute favorite mineral, but it is my favorite therapeutic ally for, at least, my unique set of baggage. Rhodonite is the ally that gets me through the day. It is a manganese silicate. Manganese in the mineral kingdom often relates to grounding the emotional body, giving us permission to feel vulnerable. In an increasingly harsh world and increasingly fast-paced world, feeling vulnerable is something that's hard to do, at least in the West. I can't speak for every culture, but certainly here. How many times have you been told to suck it up? Right? This is a stone that grounds and fortifies the emotional body so you can lean into the discomfort of vulnerability.
Over time, my practice has gotten really simple. It's a lot of sitting and watching. I do more complicated things for fun or with students and clients. But my everyday world is just sitting. So if I could take only one rock to a deserted island, I think I can survive that experience.

DIR: I skipped a question regarding Reiki practice, but I feel in a way it applies to crystals as well—it's your biggest Reiki oops. Most of us share our knowledge, our insights, but we seldom share the mistakes that pointed to these insights. Would you share one mistake or misconception that taught you something important?
NP: My biggest eye-opening moment in Reiki was assuming that we all had the same level of training and expertise, that our training looked similar, that we used the same language to describe things. Even that we went through the same set of notions to engage in our practice. And that was something that even shocked me with my home community when I would go away to school and then come back. One of those times, my teacher had studied with [Hiroshi] Doi sensei and Hyakuten sensei. So I would come back to my home base of Reiki circles, and suddenly the people are engaging in different physical motions, and I'm just like, "What's happening here?" Then going to experience other communities…l It's very easy to do the human thing and go, "Well, what I learned is right, I love my teacher, I maintain that my lineage is correct because she did such a fabulous job." It's very humbling to go, "Hey, you know what? It's okay that we all learn things differently. That's the beauty of Reiki. No matter what motions are going through, no matter what the form of practice looks like, no matter the everyday habits may be with Reiki, it has the same potential, the same possibility. Allowing for those differences, and over time celebrating those differences. Figuring out how they happened because that satisfies my intellectual curiosity. I think it's that experience of realizing we are not all the same, and we didn't all have the same type of training, the same set of tools that made me want to learn more and go deeper. I wanted to understand other people's perspectives. And maybe, in an ideal world, get us to focus on the things we can do to better the practice. It's hard to be taken seriously and credibly as a practice at large when we are so different from tradition to tradition.

DIR: I read many comments online about a particular Reiki being stronger or getting upgrades. It's a language we are adapting, very related to technology because it makes it easier to explain things. But it brings some layers of understanding that are not always correct and create separation. As you say, how do we make it credible if we are all the time throwing rocks at each other vs. assuming there are many expressions of one practice, oneness, and non-duality. It's like there is one music track: everyone is going to dance it differently.
Nicholas, honestly, there are no words to express my gratitude for your time and knowledge. For you to be willing to share all your years of study and practice with everyone. Thank you so much!
NP: It's my sincerest pleasure to join you to be part of this project. So thank you so much for having me.

You can find out more about Nicholas at:
website: www.theluminouspearl.com
FB: facebook.com/TheLuminousPearl
Insta: @theluminouspearl
Nicholas’s books on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Nicholas-Pearson/e/B01E4TQMJU

Drawing inspired by our conversation.

Helene Williams is a registered nurse and Reiki master/teacher based in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. She has over ten years of experience providing Reiki sessions in a hospital setting and has a well-established private practice. Helene has presented information on Reiki and holistic health care at two national nursing conferences, participated in a hospital-based Reiki research study, implemented and facilitated a hospital Reiki Volunteer Program and in 2013 established the Lancaster Community Reiki Clinic. She also has experience providing Reiki for Caring Hospice Services and actively volunteers at the VA Medical Center in Lebanon, PA. Helene is passionate about educating health care organizations about the many benefits of Reiki for patients, families and staff.

DIVE INTO REIKI (DIR): Hi! Welcome to the first edition of the new video interview series of "Dive Into Reiki With…" Tonight. For the first episode, we have a very special guest, Helen Williams. Helene, welcome. Thank you so much for joining.
HELENE WILLIAMS (HW): Thank you so much for having me!

DIR: I'm just going to give a little bit of your bio, so people know your background. Helene is a registered nurse and Reiki Master Teacher based in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. She has over 10 years of experience providing Reiki sessions in hospital settings and has a well established private practice. She has presented information on Reiki and Holistic Health Care at two National nursing Conferences, participated in a based hospital Reiki research study, implemented and facilitated a hospital Reiki volunteer program and in 2013 established the Lancaster community Reiki Clinic. She also has experience providing Reiki for caring in Hospice Services and actively volunteers at the VA Mental Center in Lebanon, Pennsylvania. Helene is passionate about educating health care organizations about the many benefits of Reiki for patients, families, and staff. We met at a retreat when our mentor Frans Stiene two, three years ago? And also last year in a wonderful retreat, last year in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. She has many, many surprises, and she is just an amazing human being, so welcome, and thank you so much.
HW: Thanks, Nathalie. I am super excited to be discussing Reiki healthcare and whatever else you decide to ask!

DIR: Actually, I am going to start with the first time we encountered Reiki. I think, you know, it is great for us. We all find Reiki differently: through Google, friends... What was your first contact with Reiki practice?
HW: So actually, I'm not even sure it was Reiki. My husband and I used to have a farm, and we had a little pygmy goat. It wasn't so little. He was a smaller goat. And he got stepped on by one of our horses, and we still had phone books. I was looking into the phone book for somebody, a veterinarian who might be able to look at the goat and see what he could do for this little foot because he was limping. I contacted this vet, who I had never heard of before. He looked at the goat. The little goat's name was Elvis. And he said, "This is what I want you to do: every day, I want you to take your hands, and I just want you to think about loving energy and let it flow." At the time, I thought it was a little crazy because I had never heard any kind of energy healing—Reiki or anything else for that matter. So I did it, and [the goat] got better, and then I forgot about it. When I started working at Lancaster General in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, my manager wanted us t learn how to do Reiki. Then I was like, "Oh, OK!" That kind of reminded me of this goat experience, and it clicked; things connected. That was my first experience with energy healing; just I was not sure it was Reiki. Reiki itself, I learned at the Hospital within like three months of starting there, so I was really, really lucky.

DIR: Yeah, there is goat yoga; we should have goat Reiki! You trained a lot. So I would love to talk a little bit about your journey, trying to find that thing that really resonated with you when it came to learning Reiki versus just taking a workshop.
HW: Right, after I learned the first level at the Hospital...Because I kind of connected with it, I was encouraged to jump to level 2 and [then] level 3, so I could teach Reiki at the hospital. For some reason, I couldn't find the teacher that taught at the hospital, so I googled Reiki and, at that time, they weren't a whole lot of people, but there was one who was close to me. So I went to her. She's a great teacher, but it was much more of a very Westernized form of Reiki. I did it, and it was wonderful, but I still felt something was missing for me. I started going to different classes. I learned Karuna Reiki, but I still felt there was this missing link for me. And it was really hard for me to teach the Western form that I have learned in a hospital setting. I needed something that was more practitioner based so that it could be a self-care practice as well. And although I knew about self-Reiki, it wasn't really emphasized as much as I know it needs to be now.
Then I found out about a teacher who was probably two hours away from me. Somebody told me, "Helene, you need to take this Reiki class." And I was, "Really, I took so many, what else can I learn?" It was actually one of Frans Stiene's students, and after the first day, I was like, "This is exactly what I needed." And it is, of course, a much more traditional form, where it's focused on the practitioner, mostly, doing their own work. That is kind of my journey. And that journey was probably five or six years.

Helene Williams.

DIR: Yeah, I loved when you told me you went to Sedona how many times for the trainings?
HW: Too many to count, and they were great trainings. It wasn't that there were not good trainings, they were excellent. It's just that, for some reason, I wasn't connecting with the way I really felt like I needed to when I started...really delving into my spiritual practice. I was really glad that I was able to keep going. To find something that I really connected with and blended so well with teaching in healthcare.

DIR: And I love that you still were so convinced there was something more, right? So you kept trying to go deeper, and I think that's the beauty of different lineages: we can all connect. Sometimes it's hard to find the teacher and the lineage that we need to really practice the way we feel is right for us. I am so glad you found the teacher!
HW: Yeah, you know, I always tell my students that too: "I am glad that you are here, and I am glad you are loving this class, but if you feel you need to add something in or if something is missing, then go and take another class from another teacher." I think that's really important, that we like, as teachers, we open that up and say, "Whatever feels right for you."

DIR: Absolutely and continuing education. I think that is so, so important as well, versus just training for eight hours … So, that means you practice like Japanese -style traditional Reiki. Will you define it that way, right?
HW: Yes, correct. Just that is more of a set of elements for spiritual development for myself—it includes the meditations, the hands-on practice, working with the precepts... Because to really hold that space for others, we have to do our own work first, and there is lots of work to do. I have 63 years of work to do! [Laughs.] So, the more we delve into ourselves, the more we can really hold that space for others.

DIR: When I took my first three classes—three to four classes—I basically wasn't even taught a self-care protocol, like the hand positions on the self. Sometimes, in our wish to help others, we forget that the base is us, and I think you also as a nurse you're already giving so much; if you don't have a self-care routine, you can risk burnout. And we will talk about that later. So tell me, what is your daily self-practice?
HW: Definitely, meditation. Meditation, for me, didn't come easily. It's taken a really long time to do that because I am a type-A; I am a nurse. We're always overachievers and tons of things to do, and we are always in our heads. So, it took me a long time to develop my meditation practice, but that's a really important component of my daily care now. So, meditation every morning, a lot of times in the evenings as well, and then I focus on the precepts. And that's something… that was missing from my earlier trainings as well. [Although they said] these were the precepts, it wasn't kind of pulling them apart and saying, "Oh, I got really angry today, let's pull that apart and see inside what's going on with that anger or where is all this worry coming from today." For me, the precepts are the foundation of the practice of Reiki. We have to try to really be the precepts, really embrace the precepts in all that we do, because that's what is all about—it's about healing our minds, right? Stress causes illnesses. So, the more that we can reduce stress with meditation and working with the precepts in meditation, the more we can heal our minds so that our bodies can be healthy and whole, as well. And then hands-on practice as well, of course. And I usually do that in bed in the morning.

DIR: Nice; when it comes to hands-on healing, I do it sitting because when I do it in bed, I fall asleep. I loved what you said about the precepts. A lot of times, I feel like the precepts have become like an Instagram meme, right? We post them, or we have them in pretty posters, but there is little teaching about how the precepts are guiding your hands-on healing, right? Don't worry about where to place your hands exactly, don't bring your anger, be grateful that you're sharing this space with someone, be compassionate. Or how they guide your meditation: "Why am I getting angry? What are my triggers? They should guide everything we do in Reiki and should be a guide for life. I love that, for you, they have made such a difference. You said meditation is challenging for you. What's the difference that you felt when you started integrating meditating with the precepts in your practice versus just focusing on others' care and not meditating as much.
HW: I don't go through a day without some kind of worry, right? I can sit with that now and really pull that apart. Not go down the route so much of stories, not that they still don't happen—the stories that I make up or things that I worry about or things that are going to happen. But when I sit in meditation with the precepts, I can sit and say, "OK, what is the story that you are following now? Is this realistic?" And then just sitting with it, not judging the story so much but just observing and realizing that it's a story. Then I can go back to my breath and my meditation, using the Joshin Kokyu Ho breathing, focusing my mind on the breath. It's like that with everything. And some days, I'm in my meditation, and I just feel grateful. Then I use gratitude, that Reiki precept of just sitting in gratitude and feeling wonderful. And of course, being kind, being compassionate, all those things, but you know, it's the first two that always trip us up: the anger and the worry.

 DIR: Yeah, those, and #fakegratitude in my case. "Am I grateful? No, I am not." I always check with my body to know. I would love for you to give some tips for people to deep into their practice. A lot of us we experience that: =we go to training, Reiki 1: eight hours; Reiki II: eight hours... I now some trainings, like the Open Center in New York and others are longer, but the average training is eight hours per level and then Masters, with luck three days. For Reiki 1 and 2 practitioners mainly, can you give some tips to deepen their practice? Three easy things they could do to really improve their energy flow, for example. 
HW: I was one of those people who did level 1, level 2, and level 3 in three days—and I did it a couple of times! I think that's why I kept searching for something else... If you are taking a Level 1 class, they talk about the 21 days of practicing. That's great as a jump start, but you have to continue after 21 days. Everything is not all rosy after 21 days; you have to keep doing the practice. So, encouraging meditation, and if meditation is hard for you, there is a lot of tools on the internet that can be really helpful. If you only want to meditate for two minutes, that is fine. Or, if you want to sit quietly and you are struggling, you can reach out to your Reiki teacher or a meditation teacher. Meditation, for me, is an essential element after a Reiki I class. And sitting with your feelings after the Reiki class and journaling about them. What's come up for you? Have things shifted within you? Sometimes things get stirred up, right? Sometimes we get angry about things afterward because something has changed and shifted within us. So self-reflection, I would say, would be the second thing. And a third thing, out of four, is just your hands-on healing, of course, and the precepts, just don't forget the precepts. I think Frans [Stiene] says the too: the precepts are the foundation and the outcome of the system of Reiki. It's everything that we need to really bring those elements into our daily lives. So that when we have, like somebody gets mad at us, we don't have the knee reaction...like we typically do. We can be thoughtful and mindful about it if we are working with the precepts and being compassionate to ourselves and others.

DIR: I think that is such a beautiful thing you said. A lot of times, when I get students, like, "I want to do Reiki full time, but I need to pay my bills." I tell them that we can do or be Reiki full time. We can do our jobs and be compassionate, be kind, be grateful, not worry other people, not be angry with other people. Then we are actually changing the world even further. Not all of us can live for Reiki practice, but we can Reiki into our lives 24/7 no matter what we do. So what just so said I think it is so beautiful and so crucial.
HW: Yeah, that's so important, too. When I was still working at the hospital, a lot of times, my coworkers would call me into a room where there were angry people. If something went wrong in somebody's care, or somebody was not happy with something that happened, they would say, "Hey, Helene, can you go into that room and do your thing?" I wasn't doing a hands-on session; it was just going on and being present, allowing all that energy to flow, allowing that loving compassion to flow… So, I was not always doing hands-on Reiki. It's doing the work on yourself, so you can go into this kind of situation and… and just be able to be a calming presence. And what a difference can make for people when you are just present and allowing that beautiful energy to flow.

DIR: I love that. We are going to take you all over the country and share your calming presence! Especially here in New York!
HW: It's not that it isn't challenging at times, that's for sure, but usually, a lot of times, it was amazing to watch how quickly the de-escalation can happen when you are just being in a space of loving compassion. People can feel that energy.

DIR: Imagine if most of us would do that, right, like I have a beautiful Reiki 3 student, and she told me, "I didn't expect my life would be so hard after the Reiki Master, right?" And I told her, "Listen, life still is going to have a lot of crap, but you are going to walk on the crap with calm and poise." You know you're going to be able to deal with it. Life is not going to be perfect or magical because you are a Reiki practitioner or a teacher. Still, you are going to be able to make it a lot better and improve the lives of others by just being centered, calm, and grounded. Allowing that compassion to go through. So, I love that you're not very focused on the hands.
HW: Yeah, yeah… absolutely, and I think that's a piece also for me that I was searching for: more about a grounding practice. I just needed something stronger to be more grounded because I suffer from anxiety a lot; I've come a huge way from where I was before. Sometimes it's still a challenge, but I think with the meditation practice. The way that I've been taught now, being grounded is such an important piece going into our daily lives, not only into Reiki sessions for others but also for just walking out into the world.

DIR: What would you say is the biggest gift Reiki practice has given you over the years?
HW: I'd said the meditation piece. As hard as it was for me, I think that was a key element. You know, we have to learn to quiet our minds a little bit. It is hard nowadays because of computers, cell phones, and social media. Our minds can't stay focused for more than ten seconds because we are so stimulated. So, I think the meditation practice is really an important piece to be really well-grounded and creating some space in our minds so we can go out in the world and be better.

DIR: I want this series of interviews to be very human. Obviously, we're amazing practitioners, teachers; we have an amazing practice... But I also want to talk a little bit about the biggest "oops" and the mistakes we have made. Ironically I have learned more from my biggest mistakes than from my good, calm meditation. I was wondering if you would mind being vulnerable and sharing one of your biggest Reiki "oops"?
HW: I don't know if it was an "oops," but it was kind of the way that I went about things when I first started doing Reiki at the hospital. I had no clue, there was no real precedent for me to follow, so I kind of had to find my way. The first time—actually it was the second time—because the first patient that I ever did Reiki for, he was just in so much pain, it didn't matter, he was like, "Whatever it is, I want it." And it did help him a lot. But the second patient that I went in to see, you know, I just knocked on the door, said, "Hey, I am Helene, I do something called Reiki, would you like to try a session?" And she said, "Well, tell me what it is?" And I came out with the standard "it's universal life force energy" explanation. She just kind of looked at me like I had three hats and said, "No, thank you. I don't think I want anything like that". It was for me learning how to be thoughtful about how I explain Reiki. I think it is so individualized, because you go and chat we people first, and kind of see where they are coming from, and then tailor your definition to the understanding they might have already, because now Reiki is more well known that when I first started, so it makes it a little be easier.

 DIR: I love what you said, because I think a lot of us when we start being practitioners, we go like, "Do you know Reiki? Reiki is blablablabla," and we give a whole speech. What you are saying is listen and then explain, and check if they know or not about Reiki or not, what their perception is. That is such a great tip for practitioners in general. 
HW: Some people knew there was a program there, so they would Google something before I came in. That was not always a great thing because sometimes you can Google and get good information and maybe not so great information. So it would be like, "Oh, it's this, and this, and this," and I would like, "Well, you're on the right track." But how can we explain it in a better way, so there is more understanding?

DIR: I think it's really great we can frame it in the healthcare world; how would you explain it now? Imagine that I am not Nathalie, I am a person not close-minded, but I do not have very much idea of Reiki, and I am probably in pain, on a bed. How would you approach me right now? Maybe we can do a little bit of role-playing. 
HW: Yeah, absolutely. So, I knock on the door, ask you how are you doing, if I can talk to you for a few minutes and… Is your name still Nathalie?

DIR: Yes, but I do not have an accent! [Laughs.]
HW: OK. So, I'm a Reiki practitioner, and I share Reiki with patients at the hospital. I was wondering if you would be interested in a session today, but before we even go down that road, I would like to know if you ever heard of Reiki…

DIR: I've heard of Reiki, some people say it's like a massage with no hands, and then other people say that you just put the hands and the pain goes away, but I really don't understand how it works.
HW: Well, Reiki can be done with hands-on or hands-off, so that piece is definitely correct, but it's really about the practitioner just moving in a space of quiet, peaceful energy and allowing that energy to flow to you, where you need it. Sometimes it's a little hard to understand, but it's more experiential. What I would like to do is do a short session for you, maybe just for five minutes of being quiet, maybe turning down the lights a little bit if you are OK with that. If you want to, we can play some quiet music and just allowing you to experience this loving energy. Then we can talk a little bit more about it afterward, about what your experience was with it. And if you feel you connected a little bit, we can do a longer session.

DIR: I love that because it's so hard to explain Reiki; it's great to use their experience and then using their own words to guide them. I think that is brilliant, and I am stealing that from you, like so badly. 
When in healthcare, there are a set of rules; it's different from your personal practice. So, what would you say are the main differences in terms of bringing a practice that maybe is more Western or uses more symbols into a hospital or a healthcare environment, whatever that is.

HW: Yeah, to keep it as simple as possible. When you go into a hospital, you can't practice anything in a hospital unless there is research to support it. We can talk about it later, maybe, but that is an important element. Still, as far as going in and starting a program, you need to know that hospitals, of course, have policies and procedures, so it's not as easy as always just going in and say, "I want to do Reiki." There has to be a protocol. There has to be usually a mentorship, so people who have never been in a hospital before, know what to expect in that kind of setting because sometimes it is a little shocking for practitioners to go in, who aren't used to people suffering or seeing blood or things like urine, people throwing up, right? There are all these surprises that you don't expect because you just want to go in and help people not be in pain, and things like that. But you have to know that it has to be done in a structured way. So when we started our Reiki volunteer program, we created a manual of structured hands positions for the hospital setting so that it was a protocol, pretty much, because it kind of had to be that way in order to pass all the powers that be. The hand positions were pretty much around the head, the arms, the knees, and the feet because you have to remember that people had surgery. If they might have had surgery in their abdomen, we don't want to touch them on their abdomen. You want to be very careful in talking to the patient: "This is where you can expect my hands to be placed. Is that OK with you?" Just like I do in my private practice as well. Just so there are no surprises for the patient, but there are a lot of steps to get to before you get to even the patient part. There are things as simple as knowing how to put a hospital bed up and down safely because that is an important safety thing in hospitals: preventing falls. If you put a hospital bed up and you leave with the bed up, and the patient gets out of bed and falls, that's not good. There are a lot of things you have to think about going into that kind of setting that is definitely more structured. Not that it can be an intuitive session at all, where maybe you aren't quite following the hand positions—we just want to have a roadmap, basically, [with a] protocol and the way we speak about it. There is a lot that goes into it.

DIR: There is a couple of things that I think are really important: uniformity is for people just to feel safe; it's not about limiting your practice. [To create] a sense of safety, because you have, first of all, patients from systems, people who do not believe in anything, so you want to make it very simple and paired down. The other thing I like is when you say it can be intuitive, but you have to follow [the protocol]. Sometimes we perceive intuitive Reiki as being better than just hand-on positions. If, as a practitioner, you're in a place of compassion, your energy flows free. What seems limiting can also be an opportunity to grow as a practitioner. If you have to do six hands positions, make sure you do them with all your energy at it doesn't limit you because you can't do the practice as you want to. So, I think limitations imply an attitude of "how can I grow as a practitioner" versus complaining. I was hearing a lot of people starting the programs that are already established, and for them to follow the protocol—some programs they just hover, some use only touch—is difficult because it's different from the way they\ practice, but I would love for them to understand how important it is to create uniformity and protocols for the hospitals to feel safe for the patients, right?
HW: Rights, the hospital needs to know that things are structured because that is how it works. It's a part of a hospital environment. You're so right about being present for the patient. Sometimes we think that "If I don't have my hands at a certain place, the energy is not going to flow," but it always does. We set an intention, too. I also talk to patients about intention because a lot of older people don't really understand what that means. So, we talk about that a little bit too before the session—setting an intention because that's what Reiki should be doing in that kind of setting: empowering the patient to work on their own healing process. That's what Reiki is helping with, self-empowerment.

DIR: That is amazing. Honestly, I am taking that tip up because I always say, "Set your intention to receive healing," and I never considered someone may not understand it. I think what you're saying is very valuable: let's not assume they know our Reiki language. To take a step back and make it very approachable for them. 
HW: Yeah, and I think the whole part about being present. We have to be present so that we can make sure that we're communicating clearly. That's a really important piece in that setting. That we have really clear communication. And I have been in settings already where I go to a patient's room, and I've said, "I think you signed up for a Reiki session. Would you like it? And somebody got really angry and said, "No, we absolutely don't want it." Then I have to ask why. It's because they've had a bad experience at another healthcare facility where a practitioner had come in and not even talked to the patient and was drawing the symbols over the patient. The family was sitting there, and they had no understanding of what was happening. It was really scary for them. So, I think we need to be very clear in our communication when we try to explain what Reiki is and how we do it. And so, just being present is really important. When I talked to that family, I said, "Can you tell me why?" And they, of course, told me the story, and then I was able to re-educate them, and they were OK with the session then.

DIR: Oh, that is beautiful. I am hearing that we have to put patients first and listen to them first rather than put our practice first. In the end, we have to ask ourselves, is it an ego thing? We really need to take that step back and put their wellbeing front and center. 
I know you have been trying to elevate the standard about how we train for healthcare—if I'm a nurse. I want to bring Reiki to a hospital, what can I do to make sure I am getting a real good practice. Also, what steps should I take not to burn out? 
HW: I think researching is good. I get people that call me and interview me to ask about my experience, and I think that's really important. I think that's really important to do with any Reiki practitioner. If you're going to take a class from somebody, call them up and say, "What's your practice like? How do you teach?" Make sure you're connecting with somebody who may have had some experience doing Reiki in healthcare settings. Ask them what kind of practice they are doing, if it's a structured practice. There was a practitioner—I'm not exactly sure where it was—they were doing tarot card readings before the Reiki sessions in the hospital, and that's not a typical standard of practice. Asking a lot of questions about how the person practices, and make sure that they have some experience in healthcare. And there are people out there who are doing it. Just make sure that there is some kind of protocol that is followed. What was the second question? I am sorry, Nathalie…

 DIR: My bad, I'm being a bad interviewer. Because also, some teachers like you give a credit that is also valid for nurses, right? For example, I'm not qualified for that—I just can train in regular Reiki. If you are a nurse and want to practice in hospitals, your teacher should be someone [who can give you credit and be a nurse.] Can you talk a little about the credit? 
HW: Every two years—at least in Pennsylvania—nurses have to have 30 hours of continuing education credits. So, it's a great way for nurses who want a self-care practice and also get their contract hours in for their state licensure. I applied through the American Holistic Nursing Association for my continuing education credits. And it's definitely a process. It's a lot of paperwork to fill out but helps you to really define your programming as far as teaching. So, I have a Reiki I for health providers Reiki Class. That's a two-day class and has 12 continuing education credits. So when you apply for that type of thing, you have to also, for nursing anyway, you have to have a nurse planner, so I had to contract with a friend of mine who does that so she could be part of that process. It's a requirement because they want it to be very educational and solid. That's why I think traditional Reiki practices are also great for healthcare because it's all about focusing on the precepts, it's all about meditation, it's all about taking care of yourself with hands-on practice. So it's very easy to teach. Not that you don't get the application returned three or four times with little tweaks, but it's relatively easy to get something like that approved for continuing education hours.

DIR: I love a couple of things about what you said: a solid practice and a solid understanding of the practice. But also, if you are a nurse and you are going to be offering Reiki in hospitals on top of your nursing job, if you don't have solid self-care, burnout is going to happen. And I don't know if you have any experience with burnout or any experience with burnout, and what advice can you give them?\
HW: Yeah, burnout, [even] before COVID, it was a real problem. Of course, it really is now again. I think that's one of the reasons I am really a proponent of teaching Reiki in hospitals because the staff needs a structured self-care program that they can do for themselves every day. So definitely Reiki, if you can take Reiki classes on your own or whatever [healthcare] setting [you're working at], it's just a really great self-care practice. 
The other thing is setting boundaries. It's an important piece of avoiding burn out. Not only for RNs [registered nurses] but also for Reiki practitioners because innately we want to hear people's stories and people like to share their stories, but we also have to be mindful of respecting… people's time and our time. Being able to set boundaries, which was a really hard thing for me to do because I am a hand holder; I worked for hospice for five years, so I like to sit and listen, but you need to remember that you need to take care of yourself. Setting boundaries is a really important piece. Also, self-reflection and journaling are an important piece too of avoiding burnout. Or working through burnout if you are feeling like you're getting there. Reflecting on your Reiki practice and what you need to do in order to really care for yourself. It's really always about filling your cup first. People in the healthcare industry are such givers; they just want to give and give until it is too late and you're tired, you're burnout, and you're angry, and you don't want to do it anymore. But the same thing could happen with Reiki practitioners if we go to a hospital and volunteer for a two-hour shift of sharing Reiki with the patients, and we end up only seeing two because we are a little too involved and not able to set boundaries. So that's really important. Not taking on people's things. It's part of boundary settings, of course, and doing your self-practice as a practitioner. Just recognizing that we need that self-care piece and sometimes knowing that it's OK to walk away and say, "No, I can't do this tonight," or whenever it is you are going in. Saying. "I'm really feeling depleted today, and I don't think I can be the best I can if I need to go in and do Reiki at the hospital this evening, so I'm going to take some time for myself tonight, refresh myself and then go back next week or whenever.

 DIR: That takes guts and being brave and brutally honest, and I see that's also not the usual woo-woo perception of Reiki. We see Reiki as very angelic, and we think of practitioners as angels always saying yes. Reiki should be more human, and part of being balanced humans, as you said, is accepting that it's OK if we can't do it. We have to be responsible with ourselves first and then others. To communicate it and then set boundaries. 
HW: We are human beings, right? Whether we are Reiki 1 practitioners or Reiki masters is all the same thing. We still have times that we experience a lot of stress in our lives. It's kind of pulling back and saying, you know, I'm not feeling great today, so I'm going to take a break. Just recognizing that within yourself. Because when you push and push and push, you just get burnout, and you don't want to do it anymore.

 DIR: I think there are a couple of great things for what you said, we always… we hear it from Frans [Stiene], and we hear it from Japanese monks, "If you don't have tea, you cannot serve tea." Sometimes, when we feel bad about doing that, we have to remember we can't really serve tea if we do not have it. And I think it's that again being human. We take an eight-hour class, and we forget the word practice. I am a Reiki 1. No, you are practicing Reiki 1. It's an ongoing thing, and some days are going to be hard, some days are going to be good; that is part of the practice. It's not that we get an attunement, and we are magically a Reiki 1 person who is going to behave at a higher level of consciousness. That's a little bit of a fantasy. It's beautiful, but it's not helping us to really understand Reiki as a practice. That Reiki is sitting on your bum and embracing all your feelings, as you said at the beginning, going back to the precepts. Am I angry? Let me deal with it. Not, "I should not feel angry because I am a Reiki attunement." I see healthcare can make Reiki even more human—the need for being human and down to earth is even more important in that framework.
HW: Yeah, definitely. While the attunement is a wonderful spiritual blessing, you know, it doesn't mean we don't have to do our practices. We have to do our practice...keeps going for your entire lifetime; it's part of the whole journey. Reflecting on the It journey, where you were and where you are, it's just so important. Recognizing when you are not feeling good, your worry and anger are coming in and taking the time to work on yourself. Because you are going to be so much better for everyone else if you, instead of pushing yourself constantly and trying to be this person that maybe thinks that needs to be up here, but we are all the same… me and you going through this journey trying to find the right way and in a peaceful place.

DIR: I am going to open the chat to questions. Meanwhile, I wanted to point out that you have hundreds of hours of experience, but you still do continuing training. I would love it if you talk a little about what you do to keep going deeper into your practice.
HW: I go to Reiki retreats. I do online things a lot since this is a great time [to do so]. Not necessarily Reiki classes, but delving deeper into your own practice, meditation work, and things like that... For me, it's ongoing education, and I think that's just so important. I've heard of people who took one Reiki class, and they are Reiki Master. They haven't taken a class for 20 or 30 years. There's been so much that's been learned about Reiki history and even, of course, delving deeper into your own spiritual practice that you can learn by going to more and more trainings. It's this endless journey, and the more we can have tools that we can connect with to go deep within, the better for the people that we live with, and the people we encounter every day, people that we work with, just for the whole world.

DIR: You and I go to the same retreats. Sometimes we hear the same things, but because our practice has moved one or two years, we understand it differently or understand different layers. Sometimes you can go to the same kind of trainings but because you are in a different place you get more subtleties. Sometimes it's not like having to do 300 different trainings but just …. Even like sharing time with people you have been practicing for years, sharing points of view, and those reflections you mentioned. That's why it's so important to have a community to share. Clare, she is a Patreon member, and she just commented, "I got my attunements and expected that it would bring many changes. I realize now that the practice is ongoing." She also asks, "Do you share your hospital protocol plan with other practitioners who would like to start a program in a healthcare setting?"
HW: I don't because every hospital program is going to be different. You're going to have to tailor it to a program of the hospital that you are working with …. I have a Reiki in Hospitals workshop that I do for Reiki practitioners that kind of gives you ideas on how to set that kind of thing up, but as far as the whole protocol...I can't share the protocol from a hospital because that's their information. [However,] I can give guidance on to that end. And again, I do that in a workshop that I do.

DIR: That makes sense because those protocols are confidential to every hospital, and at the end of this interview, I will give all of Helene's information so you can reach out to her, see her website and her volunteer clinic. Since I met Helene, I gravitated to her. We were 43 people in a room, and, among a bunch of calming presences, she was a big calming presence— loving and light. I was really grateful we were able to meet again and deepen that connection last year, but I really want to say how much I admire what you do and your work and how much effort you put into it, and also how grateful I am that you are sharing this [wisdom] with everyone. We don't talk a lot about Reiki in healthcare… we talk a lot about peace and love, but we do not talk about the details. Yet these make all the difference when we are going to take our practice into everyday life. One thing is a beautiful workshop, but when you get into hospitals, you need to apply your practice. So, I'm really, really grateful. 
HW: Thank you, everybody, for coming, for being here tonight. I am really grateful. I love talking about Reiki in healthcare, so Nathalie will share my information. If you have questions, please contact me. Thank you, Nathalie!

DIR: Thank you, Helene; I really appreciate you being my first guest!

You can find out more about Helene at: https://www.helenewilliamsreiki.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/helenewilliamsreiki

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/reikihelene/

Drawing inspired by Helene Williams and the idea of “self-compassion.”