DIVE INTO REIKI: Today I have a wonderful guest, Bill Stevens. Bill Stevens is a member of the Congregation of Christian Brothers and he taught 25 years in schools, before training to become a hospital chaplain. He served as a chaplain for ten years at three different hospitals in NY and NJ. While at St. Peter’s Medical Center in New Jersey he began to experience people with HIV/AIDS coming into the hospital in the 80’s, which led him to establish a nonprofit organization, Chrysalis Ministry, to reach out to those who experienced this disease as a death sentence at that time. It was during this twelve-year period of time that Bill incorporated Reiki into his ministry. After that, Bill worked with the visiting nurse supporting people at the end of life.  Bill has studied with teachers such as Khandro Kunzang Dechen Chodron, Gilbert Gallego, Hyakuten Inamoto, Frans Stiene and Kathleen Prasad. He still teaches at 88 from his home in New Rochelle, New York.  Bill, thank you so much for saying yes to the interview!
BILL STEVENS: You're welcome. Delighted to be with you, Nathalie.

DIR: I met you first at a play day with Frans Stiene, and then we had the retreat together in Lancaster. It was such a pleasure to practice together.
BS: Absolutely. Yeah, I remember that. That was a great weekend retreat.

DIR: I always start with the same question: when was the first time you came in contact with Reiki? What was your first experience?
BS: Well, it was with my teacher, Penny Nissen. As I started my ministry to people with Aids, I heard of a chaplain in San Francisco working in the hospitals out there. He was doing Reiki and I said, “What is Reiki?” I didn't know what it was. But he gave me the inspiration to find out. And I found the only Reiki master at the time in New Jersey—that was back in 1991—that I knew of anyway, there may have been others.

DIR: There was also no internet to look for them!
BS: Exactly. I made an arrangement to do a weekend course. I brought somebody who was living with HIV with me, and a woman, a social worker who was working with the community. The three of us went out and we did a weekend with this person, Penny Nissen. And we learned level 1 Reiki. I used that one class for the next seven, eight years, doing my work.

Bill Stevens,

DIR: Wow. I love that because we rush so much from Reiki 1 to Reiki 2 and Reiki 3. We go as fast as we can. And yet you did amazing work just with your Reiki level 1.
BS: Oh yeah, yeah. It was surprising to me. I didn't necessarily have any experience or was I able to talk with other people who were offering Reiki. I kept doing Reiki mainly because people were having such a positive experience. I wasn't feeling any big amounts of energy myself, but I just went into my meditation, followed the instructions that my teacher gave me for level 1 and just trusted [laughs]. And people just had some good experiences. I just was marveled by what they shared with me. I used to offer Reiki in various settings. I would go into a support group and while they were having their support group if someone wanted to have a Reiki session, I would be in another room. They could just slip out of the group, and come, and go back into the group.

I remember one person; he was really fighting an addiction and he had some mental issues as well. He came in for a session. At the end of the session, he just told me, “Wow.” He had a great experience, the most spiritual experience he ever experienced in his life. And I just said, “Wow” with him [laughs].

I would visit people in the hospital. I remember going into one particular person who had a lot of pain. I offered him Reiki and it helped his pain. It surprised both of us that the pain went away. And I visited him a few times, and he would just shout out, “Oh, here comes my pain medication” [Laughs.] I was afraid that the nurses would think I was bringing him some additional drugs!

DIR: That you were like the secret dealer of painkillers!
BS: But it was because of those experiences and similar ones, that I just persevered. I knew that it was making a difference for people

DIR: I appreciate you so much saying this. I have a lot of my students or people who approach me because of the podcast. They're so concerned about not feeling all those very strong sensations that some people feel. And when you say that you practice just trusting. And it works! I think it's going make them feel very much like, “I'm okay. I'm not doing anything wrong.”
BS: Yes. I think Frans Stiene, in his class, he taught me that. To let go of all [of that.] If you feel it, great. It's a gift. But don’t focus your attention on that, because it's not the essential part of what we're doing.

DIR: You sent me a lot of beautiful texts written by you. There was one where you were talking about taking your chaplain collar off and focused on holding the space. Could you elaborate a little bit on that experience that you had?
BS: Oh, yes. I was teaching for 25 years in our schools. I was in a very structured community life. You wear the black robes and the collar, and you tend to hide behind that. I mean, this is who you present to the world. That's all they see, whatever, whatever that means to them.

When I began my hospital chaplaincy, it was kind of like a clinical pastor education program. It's a very formal, structured training. We had three different sections of about 12 weeks each. We went through the first section of 12-week training and my counselor, the one running the program for our particular group of six people, she gave me the challenge to wear a suit the next time, without any collar. No black robes.

I was 45-50 years old at the time, and I said, “Oh, that's a challenge for me!” It was a big deal for me. I went into the hospital the first day, and I'd hear, “Hi brother. Hi brother.” No one made any remarks at all. But when I went in the room [without my collar], it was more of a challenge. But again, sometimes people threw me out of the room because of the collar! This time I had to go in as Bill Stevens, and that was a different experience. There's no agenda that people had put on me as I entered the room, you know? That was it was very growthful experience.

 DIR: Like you couldn't hide or protect behind anything. A little like our practice: you just place your hand and there is nothing to hide, nothing to do beyond trusting and being present.
BS: Yes, just going into your own meditation, and that’s all.

DIR: After many years of practicing Reiki Level 1 , what made you feel you needed or wanted to go further?
BS: I began to hear people speak about another level, and the opportunity arose. A teacher appeared. That always happens, when the student is ready, the teacher appears.  I did go to Leslie Mondou. She was offering a Level 2 class in the same lineage. And so I did take that. It was in that class that I heard of a teacher in in Maryland, Kunzang Dechen Chodron. She was an amazing woman. She was a nurse up in Vermont who was exposed to Reiki, but she had a transformative experience and was led to a Buddhist teacher who was giving a presentation. She became drawn to do to join by the Buddhist community in Maryland. And she was in Vermont. She left her profession, her friends, [and] her family. I think she was divorced at the time. but she did have a son. She made arrangements for him to be taken care of. I think he was going into college at the time. She went into this Buddhist community in Maryland and had incredible experience just for her own personal growth. She became involved with the Reiki Jin Kei Do lineage.

Seiji Takamori was one of the prominent people in that lineage. And he was a monk in Japan who got permission to go study over in Nepal and India. He went up into the mountains and studied with yogis for 20 years. He got deep into the Buddhist meditation practices and deep into the chakra work, energy work, and Qigong. That got all thrown into the teachings of the Reiki Jin Kei Do. And that's what my teacher experienced. She used to go over to Nepal maybe once or twice a year and spend a month in meditation with her teachers over there.

I did about 300 hours of study with her. I did the Reiki Jin Kei Do level 1, 2, 3, and two deeper teachings with what they called the Buddho EnerSense, which were a very deep Buddhist practices. It was challenging for me. I probably didn't understand it all [laughs], but I was very much exposed to it. I developed a deeper meditation practice, and I did do the master level with one of her students. That’s when I began to teach Reiki. Because the whole Aids development shifted at some point when people didn't have the medications, they needed to extend their life. And I was able to begin to teach some of the people that I used to serve with Reiki, so they could incorporate that into their lives and make that part of their recovery.

 DIR: We often practice Reiki with the expectation of becoming better, of enjoying a better life. But with end-of-life, it's a completely different perspective of what Reiki can offer. What did your practice offer them?
BS: The biggest part of the Chrysalis Ministry was to create a safe space for people. We had a wonderful nun who opened up a retreat house to us, and we did four-day retreat programs there. That was a time when people were afraid to come out of their houses, or even afraid to tell their family that they had Aids. There was such a stigma attached to it. Something very similar to COVID, the pandemic, that fear around it. So, they came together then at this retreat house. For 10 years, we did about four retreats a year, with about 50-60 people at a time. Some came back certainly more than once. Sometimes they would meet relatives there. They each had kept their secret from each other. It was people from all walks of [life], people who were homeless, people who were in shelters, people from Wall Street, gay men, straight men and women, people who picked up Aids from drug addiction. It was just a women and men together. It was just a great thing for them to come together and be safe. Then we broke them up into groups and they had all sorts of different programs going on. A big part of that [was that] every day we offered them a massage, and Reiki. Whichever they decided to choose and made that part of the day. We got massage practitioners volunteering their time to come at that time to offer this to them. It was really a wonderful experience for us and for them as well.

DIR: That is beautiful because they were not being touched a lot at the time. People were really scared of contagion. For them to receive touch it must have been very special.
BS: I became a massage practitioner as well for that purpose. Because [there were treated] almost like the leper, the untouchable, so they really appreciated that.

DIR: Reiki makes me feel safe in your body. The fact that you created a safe community where they could be safe, I find it a beautiful expression of the Reiki.
BS: Absolutely.

DIR: And from then you went to work with end-of-life services, right?
BS: Towards the end of the Chrysalis Ministry, I had open heart surgery, like an emergency. I took some time off. During that sabbatical year so to speak , I heard of end-of-life program that was being authored up in San Francisco by a Frank Ostaseski. I was kind of drawn to do that, probably because of my own experience around my open-heart surgery and my experience with the AIDS community. They’re very much end-of-life-issues. This was an opportunity to go deeper into that, to jump in and learn more about the end of life and how I could be with other people. And also just for myself personally. It was a great program and there's about 25 of us there. There were doctors, nurses, social workers, chaplains, volunteers. It was a great group of people.

We came together four days a month. And then we would go back to where our home was and do some field work. That threw us right into the situation so that we could come back with our experiences each month and talk about them. And also have that experience of being with someone at the end of life. There was a hospice, the Visiting Nurse association, in New Jersey. I asked them if I could volunteer there to do my field work. And so that's how that all started. That was a full year program. We went out there four days, each month and I learned so much. The teachers there were just incredible.

DIR: And can you share a little bit of some of your experience with of end-of-life care and Reiki practice?
BS: I asked the Visiting Nurses if I could get a job there as a chaplain. They said yes. I guess I was 70-years-old at the time. I think I said I would come in three days a week. I gave myself a little break [laughs]. No sooner I got into the work, I said, “Well, you know, I would like to offer Reiki to my patients. And they had a little problem with it, so they said, “Well, we have to go up before the board of directors and ask them about it.” So I had to leave my case before the board of directors and they put me on probation [laughs].

What I did first of all, I taught a group of nurses. I threw it out there, “Would anyone like to take a Reiki class?” Which they did and they enjoyed it. I would have someone send me patients, since they knew what it was and how they profited by it. Then I also asked the director. I said, “Whenever you have a real bad day, just give me a call, I'll come by, and I'll give you a session.” That happened pretty quickly; those days for her came up very often! So, she called me. I went in and gave her about a half hour Reiki session. She was convinced. I didn't have to I hide in my corner after that.

DIR: I love how you keep it so simple: when you have a bad day, come, and try this. That’s it.
BS: Right? Yeah. [Giving] an experience, right? Not to give a big spiel about it [laughs].

 DIR: What tip would you give someone who is working on an end-of-life program or in palliative services end of life?
BS: Well, yeah. I had to learn all that, you know, by making mistakes. When I called people, seeing if they wanted to visit, I got into the habit of saying Reiki is a spiritual, healing practice, which people find very relaxing and comforting. That's all the information I gave them on the phone. I had about less than a minute to ask them if they would like me to drop by. So, I couldn't go into a big history of Reiki. I felt that if a person was interested in spirituality or interested in healing, then they would be open to it. And if those words turned them off, then they would then they would say, “Thanks very much but no.” But that was okay. At least the door was open for people who were familiar with those words and wanted me to come and visit.

My only equipment was I had a little music box and my stool. When I came into the house, or the hospital room, I would decide where I wanted to sit. If I came into the house and the person was sitting in the chair, then I brought my stool over to the chair. If they're lying on the couch, I brought my stool right next to the couch. If they're lying in their bedroom, I brought my stool right there. And if I went into a hospital room instead of dragging chairs around, I could just bring my stool close to wherever the patient was in the bed.

It's amazing what little space you had there, but you could fit your stool right in there and set yourself down right beside them. And then that was where I would start offering Reiki to them. I wasn't doing a lot of hand positions. It was just placing your hands off the body or sometimes just being in your meditation. But the responses [were] very powerful in the sense of people being relieved of their pain or going into a very peaceful and relaxed place.

You never knew what kind of a situation you would go into. I remember once of just going into this room [and it] was almost totally dark. The whole room was lined with people in the chairs, and this bed was in the middle. The woman was in the bed, moaning very loudly. I had two of her children on the bed with her, and the husband on the side of the bed. I just went in and opened up my stool. I was at the end of the bed and began to offer Reiki without saying anything. At one point her husband had to leave the room and he signaled me to come closer. I was there about 45 minutes to an hour when finally the woman seemed to stop moaning and she seemed to be more peaceful. I stayed there another half hour, and then I left. Maybe a couple of hours after I left, she passed, and the husband told the social worker that she had been in this kind of condition, moaning and being very anxious, for a couple of weeks. And that was the most peaceful that he had seen her. And she died very peacefully at that time.

I always ask myself, what is Reiki? I don't know [laughs]. It's something very profound. It's not, not anything magical that you do because I know myself, [and] it's not anything coming from me. There's no magical thing that you're doing. You're kind of just becoming one with the energy. I love the way that Kathleen Prasad teaches Reiki: just becoming one with the animals. Just offering that space to them, but not pushing it on them. And Frans [Stiene] letting me know that this is a spiritual practice. The more you do your practice, paying attention to the precepts, opening up your heart, practicing your meditation and holding that space… the more you can do that, then healing is a possibility. But you don't have any expectations. You’re not to figure things out. You're not promising people anything. What is Reiki? A lot of times Frans used to tell us, “Just be Reiki.” Just be love, just, just be that. I think healing is like a side effect of your practice. The more you practice, the more possibilities there are.

 DIR: I love the way you expressed that, “The more you practice, the more possibilities, right?” Often new students try to understand what Reiki is with their head. But you can only understand through practice. What is your daily practice Bill? Like, because I know you also practice Tai Chi and Qigong.
BS: Well, each morning, I go for a walk. Then I come back home, and I'll do a half hour to 45 minutes of Tai Chi, and Qigong. That kind of quiets my mind. And then I will do a half hour to 45-minute meditation. I make sure I do that every day. But then I get to offer myself Reiki at night when I'm going to sleep [for] probably close to 45 minutes. When I wake up in the morning, I'll give myself Reiki as well. That's really my spiritual practice, you know?

DIR: I love your saying your spiritual practice being a chaplain. I often get emails from people who are worried about religion and Reiki. For those people who are a bit concerned about mixing religion and Reiki, could you share your point of view?
BS: Well, yes, I could. [Laughs]. At the hospice, I would be asked to do part of the volunteer training, talking about chaplaincy, talking about Reiki as well. When I mentioned Reiki as a spiritual practice, sometimes there would be a clergy person present, and they'd be kind of shocked that I would put Reiki as a spiritual practice, you know. Sometimes we would get into a little back and forth on it, but sometimes they would just be visibly upset with that. At one point, there was another chaplain at the VNA and he, very specifically, went into a discussion with me about Reiki being a spiritual practice. I think it's because of its Buddhist background. I think it's because like the church is the only one who has that authority, you know. That no one else can do healing but the person ordained.  That's very much there, you know?

There was a period of time, maybe in the nineties, that a group of bishops in the Catholic church came out very strongly against Reiki. After I left the hospital as a chaplain at St. Peter's they, they said the Bishop said it would be forbidden for anyone to do Reiki at the hospital. But how can they tell whatever you're doing in the hospital?

DIR: That's true, especially when you're in your meditation state.
BS: That there's nothing that they we’re doing [they can see]. But it went to that extent. I never let it interfere with my work in the hospital.  I think it's a matter of authority. But Jesus sent out his disciples to heal people in the village. He didn't grasp this as something that was only his. It was very spiritual thing. And the disciples went out into the villages and healed the people. So, it did come up for me, but I didn't allow it to interfere with anything I taught or anything I did personally. I think that the brothers never questioned anything, which was very helpful for me. They allowed me to do the things that I felt that I needed to do. They were supportive then in that way, so that was helpful

DIR: That was great. Thank you for sharing that. I always refer people who ask me about this to the Reiki principles of precepts, and I'm like, this is the embodiment of Reiki practice: Do not anger, do not worry. That is not evil. Thank you so much Bill for sharing you story. Is there anything you would like to add?
BS: Towards the end of my hospice work, I began to become more aware of Kathleen Prasad’s work. And during these last few years I've been becoming more involved in the shelters. She taught me so much. She and she has created the Let Animals Lead technique, where you just are there, and the animals come and take what they want instead of chasing after them. [Laugh].

DIR: She's wonderful. I think we should take the same approach to human treatments.
BS: Absolutely. That's why when you talk about distance healing, that's all you're doing, you're just holding that space for people. She was a great influence on me as well, and I really enjoy working with her.

DIR: And I love that you keep on training and keep on deepening your practice all the time. I find that so beautiful and inspiring as well.
BS: Well, thanks. Yeah. I have to do that. [Laughs.]

DIR: And you still teach, right?
BS: I was 40 years on my own in New Jersey and I'm 88 years old now. And so the community asked me to come back closer. So, I'm in one of our communities in New Rochelle, but I kept my contacts and I have zoom and I teach my Tai Chi classes on it. I'm teaching my Reiki classes on zoom. I'm doing a Reiki class this Saturday, and I do my healing circle once a month on zoom. So that's great. I keep in touch with a lot of people in New Jersey. I'm not pushing for anything here in New Rochelle. I just say whatever the universe sends me I'm here, but I don't go out and knock on doors anymore. [Laughs].

DIR: No it's, but I'll be sharing your website and all your details so people can reach out to you, especially if they're in new Rochelle—they're lucky people to be around you!
BS: Thank you very much.

DIR: Thank you so, so much for your time. And I'm looking forward to the Lancaster retreat in 2022. We're kidnapping you. I'm driving you down there. It's one year away but start packing. Okay?
BS: [Laughs].

Drawing inspired by Bill Stevens’s story.

DIVE INTO REIKI: Today I have a lovely guest: Yolanda Williams. Based in California, Yolanda is an Intuitive, Self-Mastery Coach and Certified Medical Reiki Master (CMRM); teaching Reiki, Intuitive Development, Elemental Balancing, and Chakra Mirroring. She trained with internationally recognized Reiki masters in the lineages of Usui Reiki Ryoho and Jikiden Reiki. Yolanda also trained with shamans and other healers of various modalities, increasing her intuitive abilities and understanding of Universal Oneness.
She is the host of the top-rated Reiki Radio podcast, founder of The Alchemy Circle, and creator of The Seekers Circle, which has become an international community of energy workers.
She is currently authoring an oracle deck to highlight how you can deepen your understanding of what it means to be an authentic expression of your true nature. I am super excited about that! So, without further ado, let's welcome Yolanda.
YOLANDA WILLIAMS: Thank you so much, Nathalie. I'm so excited to be here.

DIR: I like to start all of these interviews with the same question: How did you come in contact with the Reiki system? When was the first time this practice appeared in your life?
YW: The first time it appeared in my life, interestingly, I had gone through a layoff. Well, I had the option of keeping my job and relocating to another state, which I didn't want to do. And so, I took my package and spent some time finding myself. I had a whole "Eat, Pray, Love" experience. I went to Europe by myself and was just trying to figure out what I wanted to do next in life. And I knew that I didn't want to go back into finance. And so, I got to this space where I was having anxiety. I was freaking out. I was like, "I don't know what I want to do with my life, and I have bills to pay." And I literally found myself one day like I was imploding because I was just so afraid of not knowing what to do. I was crying in the fetal position on my bedroom floor, which was very unlike me. And I was just saying like, "Please like, God, just give me any direction. Give me a sign. Just tell me what to do. Just help me." This really eerie calm came over me, I stopped crying, and the first thought in my head was to call this woman who had done my astrology chart maybe ten years prior. And when I went to her initially, she was so accurate that it scared me, which is why I never called her in that ten-year window. I was like, "How does this lady know these things about me and my life?" But anyway, since she was the first person or thought that came to mind, I booked a session with her to have my chart done again.
When I went, she told me several things about what was going on in my life. But most interestingly, she said, "Have you ever heard of Reiki? You should definitely go get a Reiki session and learn how to meditate. Because both of those are going to help you with the stress that you're experiencing. And then you can have clarity and decide how you want to move forward." So, I looked up Reiki because Google is my friend. I was like, "This is really interesting!" It just sounded so strange that I thought I didn't really want to have a session as much as I wanted to learn, like what is this. I signed up for a [Reiki 1] class. I signed up for meditation class simultaneously, and then that was it. The door was open, and I started this deep dive into exploring myself.

Yolanda Williams.

DIR: When we talked on another occasion about self-exploration, you highlighted that healing is not that pleasant process we all imagine. Can you elaborate on that?
YW: Yes. I think partially I was kind of lucky at the beginning that I was blind to the whole idea of spirituality. I hadn't read any of the books, or I wasn't familiar with the practices of the teachers. I genuinely went in this blindly. When I started meditation and Reiki, I practiced both diligently because I was so curious. There was this part of me that was very excited at the beginning: "Whoa, I'm experiencing myself differently. I'm starting to perceive different things, you know, just life in a different way." So, I went all the way in, being very, very diligent and just practicing. 
Then I started researching and finding other teachings and spiritual communities. It sounded like the most amazing thing, like you [were] going to be so spiritual and like rainbows and butterflies and feel so great. I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. And again, initially, that's what I was experiencing. I was just fascinated by what I was starting to feel and sense and starting to question what we are in a different way? But then what happened was that I started to really see myself in ways that I guess I repressed or just things I had put on the back burner. Different emotions started coming up. I started having different reflections about my life experience and how things affected me, and what I was behaving from today based on the past. It was just like, "Wait, what is happening? This isn't sunshine and rainbows." It was really hard, like standing in front of a gigantic mirror that I wasn't expecting to appear. But fortunately, for whatever reason, there was a part of me that knew this was part of my healing.
It was like I instinctively knew: don't run away from this. Don't shut down. The stuff is coming up for a reason. So, keep examining what's going on. And then, how does this feel in your body? How does this feel with your energy, and where is the balancing coming in when you sit for practice? And I just want to highlight that it wasn't like a short process, like one week. This was years of stuff coming up, and the truth is it still does. 
I think as a lot of the resistance starts to dissipate, and you start to really see the beauty and the gift of seeing yourself, it's not so hard. It can be uncomfortable, but there's a lot of gratitude around what's coming up. And the understanding that comes from that. But definitely, there were a few years where I felt like, "Is the universe punching me in the face? Like what is happening? I'm doing all the things. I'm practicing Reiki. I'm meditating. Where's the sunshine and rainbows?" Eventually, I came to appreciate [the process]; I understood that it was part of my healing.

DIR: I love a couple of things you mentioned: first of all, being open to experiencing it, whatever length of time it takes. But also the need for balance. Because I think, sometimes we go into the shadow work, and that takes over the light. We need to accept our darkness but temper it with gratitude and compassion, right?
YW: Yeah, that was the thing. The different tools that I had learned through Reiki and meditation really got me through those processes. Because then I started to recognize, "Okay, how do I feel embodied? Oh yeah. I can sit in, use my breath to just calm and come back into a space of clarity. I can look at the Reiki Gokai (precepts) and really examine like, wait, I really am angry right now. I really am worried right now. Why? What's coming up around this, and what are the perspectives that I'm holding? Can I see the beauty in this discomfort and what's happening? So, definitely, the practices and the techniques that are infused in Reiki got me through it. It gave me even more of a reverence for the practice itself. Man, if I would have learned this as a teenager! But you know, it comes when it comes.

DIR: We all have that feeling! I fantasize about teaching how to work with the Reiki precepts to every pre-teen in the world, so they can face puberty and life with some tools. 
What I love about you is that you're relentless in your search for tools and knowledge, but you don't get attached to the tools themselves. You have explored many modalities but have not lost your North. I know that you studied Akashic Records Reading. A lot of people ask me about them and how they can be used with Reiki. Can you tell us your perspective on combining or studying different modalities?  
YW: I always include meditation [in my practice] because I love it so much. And although Reiki is very meditative, I had to learn meditation as a separate thing to really go deeper into it. Because it wasn't a big part of the first classes that I took. I was starting to experience myself differently, and I started to feel sensations differently —whether in meditation or sometimes in Reiki sessions. I would see or feel like colors and things. And I was like, "What is this?" It was very distracting to me because I wasn't being present. I was more curious of, like, what is all this stuff? I realized just to satisfy my mind; I wanted to understand why I was having these experiences.
I took an intuitive development class and studied to have more understanding about how we translate and perceive energy or how we even translate and perceive the unseen. I went through a period of, okay, I am seeing and sensing these different things intuitively, but it was never for me about predictive work. Do you know what I mean? It was more this exploration of my design, like how can I even see or feel these things that aren't tangible, that aren't here in the material realm? I was more fascinated about what we have the ability to perceive. I went deep into that study. I also recognized that once I understood my intuitive nature more, it dissipated some fear around what I may feel or sense because a lot of people do get this heightened sensitivity after practicing anything—I mean, it could just be meditation, Reiki, whatever. 
From there, it was like just going down a rabbit hole. I was literally like Alice in Wonderland, like, "Oh, there's more, give me more, what else is out there?" I met this amazing woman who was an Akashic Records teacher, and I studied with her. It was just another layer of learning, how we access different states of consciousness. I'm a very curious person. I was also curious about why people would want to access a different state of consciousness. But I didn't attach to it the way that people use all these different practices, even Reiki for that matter. All of this work was about discovering more about myself. It was like, "Oh, this is so cool." Being a human is actually kind of fascinating. It was changing me because I was having a deeper appreciation for life and for being and existing. That's what encouraged me to want to share it with other people.
Even when I share with other people—people that I teach or just people I converse with—I'm always very clear: you're not meant to mimic me. Here are the tools that have helped me. See how it opens you up to you. Notice what you start to recognize about yourself. And then, of course, what that may reveal to you about this true nature that we talk about and these aspects of us that are really beneath the surface, beyond "I am Nathalie." Beyond "I was born in a female body." There is just so more underneath that is that unifying quality in all of us. And I think these practices have helped me see that in a broader way. 

DIR:  I love the way you put it: it's is about self-exploration. It's not about getting answers like, should I go to the supermarket now or later? I think you made it very clear and very loving for everyone to understand. I really appreciate that answer. You also mentioned something I always struggled to put into words when we had a conversation, and you did it beautifully. I feel that, as practitioners, we often struggle with the issue of messages. When we work with others, we shouldn't confuse observation and awareness with acting as an antenna, always grasping to get messages. Can you elaborate a little bit more on that?
YW: Yeah. When that initially was happening for me, I did have that pressure on myself because, again, I wasn't even very clear at the beginning of what Reiki was. And so it was this self-imposed pressure of, "Okay, I'm seeing in sensing thing. Am I supposed to tell them? What does this mean? Am I going to translate correctly?" All of this blah, blah, blah, right? I absolutely went through that phase and that stage. But then I got to a place of like, "Hello, come back to observation, let go, be the empty vessel. But there was a lot in my own process that I had to work through. [Letting go] layers of my own ego, of wanting to be right, to do it right. To do a good job. Honestly, I think there is nothing wrong with it. I think there's beauty in that so many people decide to do this type of work and hold space for others. We just genuinely want to do a good job. Like we want to help you. We want to support you. But then again, we attach to these expectations that take us out of the practice itself. I think for a lot of practitioners, it's just part of the process of the undoing and the learning and the bumping against ourselves to see what we're even attached to and the pressures we're putting on ourselves. So, I went through that cycle, and I appreciate it because now I can relate when I meet other practitioners who may have a similar experience. I'm like, "Yeah, it was there. Howsoever you can let that go, let it fall away. You can observe. And it absolutely means nothing. You can just hold space, and that's all it is." 
But I think the greater gift and a lot of the things that I practice outside of just Reiki, and I have to say Reiki is in there as well, was that it all kind of helped me learn more to trust. To let go. To not be so attached. To pay more attention to my own self-observation: what I feel, what I sense, how I feel guided, without making everything something. 

DIR: I think it's so helpful to know this when you are a beginner. Many of us practice for a couple of years, get confused or stuck, and drop the practice. It is advantageous to hear the experience of people who have been practicing for 15 years, 20 years, to understand that, "Oh, this is a stage. I just need to keep a beginner's mind and remember that my practice will keep changing. That's what excites me about Reiki. The more I practice, the more it changes, so I never get bored. You can never get Reiki "right" because the practice changes all the time. 
YW: Absolutely. And that's why a big focus for me is like, here are the tools. To me, they're foundational; they're keys. But the beauty is just don't leave them on the surface and don't get so rigid about being right. I have to practice, right? I have to [be in that space of] observation as I sit with myself and apply these. And not just when I'm sitting, not just in a session, but how do I apply this out in my everyday life? How does the Gokai show up in my exchanges with my friends and my family? Or how does using my breath really help me [in my exchanges] with the world around me? Right. So, it really is to me about how I am being and how these tools are helping me to evolve.
I think that's what keeps me excited and connected to my practice because I know I have no idea how I'm evolving and changing. I know it's this never-ending process. I don't know what the end result will be, but I'm very thankful that I'm changing. I'm very thankful for the ways that I see it has contributed to my life and how it's helping me soften. It helps with my layers of stress and how I handle things and all of that across the board. 
I also think that's why it's important for practitioners to know that if your experience doesn't mirror someone else's, it doesn't mean that you're wrong. You're just going through it your way. And what comes up for us individually is going to look different. How we choose to work through what comes up for us is going to be different. But it's the beauty in that we have these similar practices that help to get us there. 

DIR: That is amazing. We are often pressured to have the same experience as everybody else. If everybody loves a movie and you don't like it, it's weird. With your answer, you are giving the freedom for everyone to experience the practice differently. We will all unfold and evolve differently. And that is the way it should be: we all have different mindsets. I think that is a precious gift. 
You're supporting people to do this through your Patreon and your circle. Can you talk a bit about that? About the importance of supporting practitioners after certification? 
YW: Yeah. Interestingly it started with the podcast. I started the podcast in 2013. At the time, I was like, "Hello, is anybody talking about this stuff?" There wasn't a lot of information available outside of the little pod of the class you took or your immediate community. I was experiencing a lot in terms of stuff coming up and being uncomfortable and questioning, "Am I doing this right?" I realized there had to be other people that we're experiencing this too. [So I thought] if I can just share what I'm going through, and if anyone else is going through it, maybe it will encourage them to stay in the process. And then, we can start having conversations about this and help each other by sharing what we're experiencing and being honest about it. Not think you have to say you have to be peaceful and kind every day. If you're mad, say you're mad, but let's then look at these practices and see how they work? How do they help us work through these different emotions and things coming up?
I just wanted to talk about it and have a community forum, but I didn't even know if anyone would listen to the podcast. I was like, just throw it out there. It did take a while before I started hearing from people who found it and were listening. I really appreciated that. But then I started to realize even more that, for a lot of us, after our initial training, then what? And we go home and practice, but some people didn't even have access to their teachers afterward. When I'm practicing, that's when the stuff is really starting to happen. That's where I need to talk to someone. And this is where my questions are. Because when I'm in class, I don't know what to ask. I'm just learning. But when I start implementing, man, I have questions! 
Over the years, that evolved. I had an opportunity to then start doing some online classes, not Reiki. I don't teach Reiki online, but I started having online classes to support practitioners. I love the back-and-forth exchanges, so I decided to start the Patreon group. I invited practitioners to come in to practice together. But to also share. Let's talk about it. What's coming up for you? What is your experience?
I really believe we learn from each other, but it also gives people this space where they feel comfortable. They feel seen and heard because a lot of people that practice, whatever they practice, they may not have people in their immediate life that understand, that they can talk to about these things. A lot of people are closeted about their practices because they don't want to seem weird or be judged. And so it's like, "Yeah, you have this community, this space. Let's play, let's practice and talk about it." And it developed into a lot of mentoring. But again, it's one of those things that I'm like, I don't know how long I'll be doing this. I don't know what it will evolve into, but I'm doing that for now.

DIR: What you said about being closeted, I think it happens to a lot of us. When I talk about Reiki with my family, they confuse me either for a Hare Krishna or a witch. There is a lot of distrust. So for me, finding a community was significant as well. 
It also happens that when you discover Reiki, you don't want to work anymore and just want to do Reiki. Because it's so beautiful. And then part of the process is to face the fact that we can't all be practitioners. But that doesn't mean we drop the practice. It means your life becomes your practice? My freelance work, my family relationships… they all become practice. Finding the community really supports you in your self-exploration journey.
Talking about exploration, you are working on a project that has me pretty excited: an Oracle deck. Can you tell us about it?

YW: I wanted to create an Oracle deck for a very long time. Back when I was doing my Alice in Wonderland thing, I came across Oracle cards. I was like, "Oh, what are these about? I learned how to read Oracle cards from a woman who had created her own deck. She was a phenomenal teacher. But again, I used the cards every day to go like, "What is coming up in my energy? What may I not be looking at in a particular way?" Just wanting a different perspective on myself. Like, "What is it I'm holding around this situation, and what might support me to understand differently?" So, I worked with cards in that way, and then over the years, I started helping people learn how to read cards.
Then at some point, I became interested in the Tarot. Anyone familiar with Tarot [knows] it's broken up into major Arcana and Minor Arcana. For a very long time was only interested in the Major Arcana, known as the Fool's Journey. As I connected with the cards, I realized, "Oh my God, this is showing the process that we go through." Our own process of coming into a deeper relationship with ourselves and what starts to come up for us. It mirrored a lot of what I experienced through the years of this work. I was fascinated that this story was being told from another lens. And I have to say, Nathalie, that's one of the things why I also liked to study and read about so many different practices and philosophies. Underneath it all, they all seem to point back to the very same thing, which is you, and how you are going through this practice of awakening to yourself and revealing more of that true nature.
I was fascinated with Major Arcana. I got to the minors later. I now have more decks than I will admit on your show, but I realized I wanted just one go-to deck very specific for people interested in self-work. Practitioners or people interested in self-exploration could use this one deck and the different elements that hold that mirror for us. Like, "What is it that I am holding? What is it that I'm not seeing? What is it that is helping me in this challenging situation?" So, I designed the deck itself. I worked with an artist. I had to translate to her the images in my mind. Part of the deck is inspired by the Major Arcana, but then the rest is it's just different stuff going on. It's a deck to support people in their self-work. Because Oracle cards and Tarot were two tools that helped me go deeper into looking at this life experience and how I'm navigating it, I was like, "Yeah, I definitely want to create something that is very intentionally to be used for people who want to do the same."

DIR: Throughout this interview, one thing that keeps coming up is that all these practices are just tools to mirror and discover your true self. Yes, it's great that it fixes back pain, for example, in the case of Reiki, or that it gives you some emotional release. Still, in the end, it's really about self-exploration. Once you see everything through that filter, there is no right or wrong way of doing it. 
However, when you become familiar with so many tools, how do you establish a consistent daily practice? Which ones do you choose?

YW: Yeah. I just want to highlight something that you just said because I think a lot of us—when we are seeking and trying to understand—we "right and wrong" ourselves a lot. There's beauty in people that like you just stick to the purity of whatever particular practices. I like to think that people who practice this way are lineage holders in a way. I think that's very important because that's where the traditions get passed down. We can continue to learn like that information. Those teachings, those foundations are never lost because certain people just want to stick very tightly to the tradition. There's so much beauty in that because if that weren't the case, we wouldn't be sitting here right now talking about Reiki. However, there are some people, [and it's] not right or wrong, that does feel like, "I want all the things." 
I hope people can understand and appreciate whatever they feel called to. Like there is no right or wrong in this. But no matter what class I was taking, no matter what I was learning, I always had just a foundational daily meditation period across the board. And I've made it a point to be very rigid with myself, honestly, about making sure I start my day with medication. If I'm lucky, I get to do it a few times throughout the day. But meditation really is my love. That is genuinely what I'm in love with. So that has always been the foundation of no matter what exploration I do. 
Then say, for example, I studied Akashic records and Oracles and this and that. I give my attention to these practices because I genuinely want to understand them, but the thing is, I don't attach to them. I don't feel like I have to implement everything. How could I possibly practice every single thing every day? 
So, for me, the focus really is what am I getting from this thing that I just learned? It always comes back to how this practice is in service to my goal of understanding myself. How is this practice in service of helping me to see or understand myself in a higher way? And then I take that in, take it in, I take it in. I don't feel like I have to do all the things as much as I appreciate the different perspectives that all of these things have given me. 
But then there's also this thing that comes [with training], say Akashic records, for example. In the class that I took, it was suggested that you practice it every single day for 30 days right after class. And so, I did that because it was part of the practice. What I realized is I was enjoying that. Then that became part of what I did every single day for months. I went into my Akashic records. What started happening again is that instead of just being a surface thing that I was doing, I started to recognize, "How is this changing the way that I see things? The way that I feel the flow of energy? And on and on and on."
It's more like it awakened something in me, but it wasn't that I have to attach and say now I have to keep doing this every day. And I don't do it at all. But because of the connection to the practice itself, you start to embody [its] essence. How do [you] allow this experience, this expression to live through [you]. In a lot of ways, the grip you have on [these tools] starts to fall away. And it's more about how [are they] adding to this expression and what I am starting to understand more about myself. 
So, if you are someone who likes to study many things, maybe don't do 10 classes at once. [If you] want to study this one thing, give your time and attention to that thing, practice it, implement it. Otherwise, what are you studying for? What's the point? 
Don't give yourself this pressure of right and wrong as much as, "How do you feel guided in this practice?" Some people I know study many things and continue to practice all those things, but that's what works for them. And it's a beautiful thing. It's just that that wasn't my personal guidance. I'm just more of a "how can you help crack me open type of girl," and then let's see what happens. 

DIR: That is excellent guidance. We don't need to practice all of them every day. We just need to go deep to get that gift meant for us. And then we can choose what we keep. These practices look very different on the outside, but they all point towards the same thing at the end. I think we learn from everything, not just from spiritual practices like Akashic records or Oracle, but also from working a day job or walking on the street.
YW: Yes. And I think that's the beauty of this community as well—[although] a lot of people have a lot of judgment around it. It's beautiful that you have so many different people practicing and people called to so many different things. You have this variation of tools and elements available to anyone and what you feel called to. For example, I know a lot of people who work with Reiki and crystals. I have a lot of crystals, and I love crystals, but they're not necessarily part of my sessions. But there are people who feel drawn to that. It fascinates me the way this work expresses through everyone uniquely, you know what I mean? Or some practitioners may like to incorporate a reading or do Akashic records. Then they'll implement energy work as part of the process. People have to allow things to express through them the way that they feel called. That's amazing to me. And I like variety. I know that everything is not for everyone, and we're all going to be drawn in and inspired by even different things. That has been why I appreciate learning different things, reading about different things. I love to interview people because I want to hear, "What is your practice, and what has it done for you?" When I interview people in their different practices, it's not because I practice or what I'm interested in. But I understand that there are other people listening that may be held to that. So, let's have a conversation and see what's inspiring all of us. 

DIR: It's beautiful because we're billions of people, and everybody will have a journey, right? There is no one way; there are 7 billion ways.
YW: Yes, exactly.

DIR: Your answers have been very enlightening. I love how articulate, precise, and kind they are. Changing gears a bit, however, I would like to ask you about a Reiki "oops" that gave you valuable insight into Reiki practice. 
YW: I can think of two off the top of my head. One, the biggest Reiki "oops" for me at the very beginning was trying so hard. I mean, I was trying hard. I was attached to the outcome, and this was more so in practicing with other people. And you know, that whole thing that a lot of practitioners go through, like, "Is this working? Is it right?" I was so focused [on that,] not trusting, allowing, and, you know, being an empty vessel. I was putting a lot of pressure on myself, and it was so distracting. And then there was this one day. I'll never forget. One of my friends wanted me to do a session. And I literally had the thought—because I was so frustrated with not knowing how it was working—"I don't even care." I literally went into the session with this feeling of "I couldn't care less," let me just lay my hands on them. I was so detached. It was the most amazing experience. It was just this flood of energy. And I just had this realization in the moment of "you got out of the way, you stopped trying." And that's the whole thing: stop trying, just sit, breathe. That was a huge lesson about just being an observer, just staying with my own breath. My focus in that particular session was more so on me. The cultivation of the life force that I was experiencing in my own being allowed me to be free in the flow of life force I was feeling, letting go of my attachments, surrendering. To let go of the yip yap [in my head] about rightness. To let go of the anger and frustration. That was huge for me. So while I do care when I show up for a session, I'm not attached to the outcome. 
Another thing is, I have encountered over the years not just working with different practitioners but in conversation with a lot of practitioners that a lot of people just want to get it quick. I don't know if they want to awaken quick or want a quick result. I'm not sure what the desire is, but they want something to happen quickly. Right. So many people will do things where they'll do, like Reiki 1, 2, and 3 within a day. And then, on the other side, they feel like drunk. It's almost like an energetic overload that happens when people ingest, ingest, ingest because "I want to do this fast."
That was also a big lesson: an observation of integration. Like, be easy. There's no rush; take it in. It's not just a surface-y thing. The truth of the matter is when you start connecting with yourself and when you start implementing these practices, it can't not change you. The energy that moves can't not have some type of impact on you. Instead of trying to overstimulate yourself or your system, [be] kind. It reminds me of enjoying the meal: you don't have to eat so fast, just enjoy the meal. You'll notice the flavors, the textures, you know what I mean? It's different than wolfing it all down, and then you're full. And you're like, "Oh, I feel sick. I don't know what happened." I think our practice in a lot of ways can be that way, but I have learned the beauty of being patient. Not just in what we ingest, but being patient with ourselves and recognizing how the work is helping us to evolve, shift, change, balance, bring stuff up, and work through the layers. Just take a breath and take your time.

DIR: I love those two words: patience and integration. It reminds me of a story recounted by Sharon Salzberg of when she went to study meditation in India. She was practicing Metta meditation for a month or so, focusing on herself. She was feeling that it wasn't really changing her life and was a bit frustrated. Then one day, she let something drop. And she heard her inner voice say, "You are a klutz, but I love you." It is such a human, beautiful perspective. It changed me because I had always wanted Reiki to solve everything in my life. Self-acceptance was not even on the map.
We expect the changes to be big and fast, but they actually show up in the small things. When we break a glass, and we don't spiral out into self-hatred. Or you call someone by the wrong name, apologize and let it go versus fretting for hours. These are the indications your practice is working. Practicing kindness towards ourselves and others. 
YW: With you saying that, Nathalie, it reminds me of [Frans Stiene, a teacher we both have in common.] One of the things I really appreciated about having him as a teacher is that he has such lightheartedness. There's such a playfulness to him in his classes. I think when we come into this, a lot of people think we have to be so serious. Like, this is serious. And while it's serious business doing your healing, playfulness can be a part of it and actually is quite helpful in the process of not being attached, being more forgiving, and being more compassionate. The laughter has to be present. 

DIR: Then the practice becomes so dry, right? And the reality is so opposite. Like right now, there are garbage trucks under my window, a concert, people screaming. Or posed like on Instagram, where everyone meditates looking into the horizon with perfect wavy hair flying in the wind. It's not perfect, yet it is. 
YW: Yeah! I think sometimes one of the maybe basic questions that we can ask ourselves along the way is, "How am I experiencing this?" Like on the other side, not while you're meditating itself. Just taking a breath and noticing like, "Am I using this essence of calmness and stillness? Am I able to apply this when something triggers me out in my life? When I recite and chant the Gokai, am I really feeling into those words? Do I really allow them to be like little mantras and remind me of my perspective as I'm interacting in the day?" 
I mean, again, it comes down to patience, slowing down, observing how the practices are actually impacting your life. It's not just information to take in to be able to regurgitate, to know all the spiritual jargon. No. [Observe,] how is this actually? Why did you study this in the first place? That's like one of the things I ask: why do you want this in the first place? And then how are you allowing this to support you in experiencing that?

DIR: I taught a woman recently, and she told me she could not feel the energy but felt the practice was working because she didn't scream at her kids so much. She was doing things she had not dared to do before. I loved this. 
But back to your Oracle Deck, do you have a timing for the launch? I'm already hitting that pre-buy button! 
YW:  Thankfully, I have a friend who is a graphic artist, and she has helped me a lot. So everything will be submitted for printing in September. And then it's supposed to just be a few months after that. So hopefully [it will be ready] in the fall, but definitely by the end of this year.

DIR: Awesome. That's going to be my Christmas present! Thank you so much for being on the podcast and sharing your beautiful wisdom. 
YW: Thank you so much. 

Yolanda’s drawing.

Ifetayo White is a Reiki Master Teacher who is the founder and director of The Lowcountry School of Reiki on St. Helena Island, SC.  Having practiced and taught Reiki for more than 25 years, Ifetayo was attuned in 2020 as a Usui Shinpiden Reiki Master by Frans Stiene of the International House of Reiki. Her training as a doula, a massage therapist, and Jin Shin Do acupressure practitioner, and 10 years of experience working in mental health have created the container for her practice in somatic healing of traumatic memory stored in the body. For Ifetayo, Reiki is the foundation of everything she does in her life and is devoted to the daily practices of living Reiki.

DIVE INTO REIKI: Ifetayo, thank you so much for joining me. I see you, and I just smile!
IFETAYO WHITE: It's a pleasure to be here. Every time we come together, I have chills and tangles and excitement. Thank you so much for inviting me.

DIR: It's going to be a lovefest. Sorry. I like to start every interview with the same question: how did you come in contact with Reiki, and how did your journey begin?
IF: It's an interesting journey. My first experience with Reiki was in the 80s. I would think around 1984. I'm from Washington DC, and around that time, I was meeting the first Reiki practitioners… Eventually, one of my best friends became Reiki 1 first. She eventually became a Reiki master and became my Reiki teacher. At that time, I don't think anyone was charging for Reiki. At least my friends weren't. And so, we were all lined up all the time waiting to receive. And fortunately, Nathalie, my friend I owned a duplex house. She rented the first floor. So, it was always like nonstop Reiki. They had a lot of Reiki shares. So yeah, it became a go-to for me for any discomfort. Even when practitioners wanted to practice, I was always with my hand up. I try to remember what it was, what was I feeling, I'd know that I felt better. That's all I can think now because it was quite a while ago. I personally was not at all thinking about becoming a practitioner or a teacher. I was just really interested in receiving.

 DIR: That's beautiful. Most of us Reiki practitioners have a difficult time receiving.
IF: Yeah. And it took many years before me of receiving before I became attuned. I became attuned to Reiki one and Reiki 2 in 1995 for my 50th birthday. The same friend who had become a Reiki master asked if she could give me Reiki 1 and 2. And at that time, I was a massage therapist and reflexologist. I was devoted to those practices, and I really did not feel a calling to Reiki. I loved the practice, but I felt as though I had good energy in my hands; everyone said you have good energy.

My friend assured me that if I had an attunement, there was some more for me to know and experience. I didn't initially say yes to her offer. I said, "Let me meditate on it." I was a big meditator. In my meditation, what I felt and received guidance was, "Receive the gift." That's all I heard. And that was that's profound. The gift has been the gift that has continued to give. Always.

So, on my 50th birthday [I became Reiki 1], and two months later, I became Reiki 2. In 1999, four years later, a student of my Reiki master who had become a Reiki master needed someone to practice with. She said, "Can I attune you as a Reiki master teacher?" And I was like, "Sure." I hadn't planned to teach. I'm really, that was not my plan. So, I tell so many of my students, "Reiki has its way with you." Reiki called me more than I called it to me. It was divine. Reiki is my life now.

DIR: A couple of things I would like to highlight from what you said: that you were able to receive first. Often as practitioners, we want to give sessions, and we hardly receive any. And then you took the time to connect with your inner self to check if you really wanted to move forward into Reiki training.
IF: I don't know how to explain it, except that's how it was. My journey was that way. And my friend, who was my first Reiki master, no longer practices… I was the first Reiki master in Beaufort, South Carolina when I moved [here] in 2000. And that was interesting. I live on St. Helena Island, but it's part of Beaufort County... It's more rural where I live. But as I said, Reiki has its way with us. It's divine. We can't control it, as you know from practicing. Our lives are influenced nonstop by Reiki. My life is informed by Reiki.

DIR: Yeah. And that's an amazing thing, right? It happens to us that we learn Reiki because the practice calls us. But often, it isn't until we find a special teacher or book that we really grow into it.
IF: Yes. I had been teaching for 20 years before I met Frans [Stiene]. Prior to that, around a year before I met him, one of my [Reiki] master's students had seen his book somewhere, The Inner Heart of Reiki. And she said, "Oh Ifetayo, you have to have this book," and she bought it for me. I couldn't put it down. I've read it over and over. I wish I could show you my copy right now. It's so dogeared. I buy new copies and give them away, Nathalie. And I just keep my copy. But that [book] became my Bible in so many ways. I learned so much, I could feel something transforming in myself.

Then I saw an announcement from the Omega Institute that Frans would be in New York in May 2019. So, I went there, and I met him. We were chanting the precepts in Japanese… Since that time, he came to my home in St. Helena in February of 2020. He came and taught Reiki 3 - Shinpiden level at my home to 12 women. In rural South Carolina! I couldn't believe he would come. We had a wonderful time, and I have not been the same since then.

My whole practice has transformed. I teach more Reiki masters now than ever. [My daily Reiki practice has changed. Before] I gave myself Reiki every day. I said my precepts every day. Now there's a whole lot more than I do every day. I'm so grateful for him and the expansion of my life and my practice. For the capacity to reach so many more beautiful beings and share Reiki with them as I intend. My practice has the intention of bringing and supporting beautiful beings back to their true selves. [Supporting] the knowing and living from that place of light within. And that's why I teach really—and everything else is gravy.

DIR: What you describe is going from an energy modality focused on well-being and physical improvement to a spiritual practice to reconnect with our true essence with an energetic component.
IF: Absolutely. I've always been a very spiritual person. I'm a deep seeker. When Frans came, it was like that connection just filled up everything that my heart had been asking for. And so, yes, Reiki is my spiritual practice, and it is my healing practice. And it is my love practice and everything practice.

 DIR: Your name has a beautiful translation. And for me your name, it's almost like the definition of Reiki. So, I would love for you to share that translation?
IF: My name is a spiritually-given name from the Yoruba African tradition. And it is now my legal name. I changed my name legally to Ifetayo Jacqueline White. Jacqueline was my birth name, which is equally beautiful. But Ifetayo was given to me by a priest who saw me and said, "You are Ifetayo." I didn't choose the name. And the name means "love that brings joy." And of course, like with any name, the request is to grow into that energy. So, since I was 49—I think that's when Ifetayo became my name—there have been many years of growing into it. Reiki has been a big part of that for me: growing into the light that I am. Living and expressing that light, that love, that joy. That's who I am. And I'm so grateful.

I love that you have that you brought [Reiki and my name] together. [In a way] in my 49th year, the year before I became Reiki, the name was calling Reiki to bring all of the support I needed to live out this name destiny.

DIR: It's almost like pointing towards how our practice should be. I know we're obsessed with shadow work lately, but sometimes we need to let go of shadows and sit in our light.
You're bringing Reiki to rural communities, to people who didn't have access to it. Often, it seems that Reiki is a practice mostly for hipsters or people who are into the new age movements in cities versus other communities that tend to be more diverse.  When we talked previously, you mentioned something that stuck in my mind: that there is no race or color in oneness, but we incarnate the person we are to bring access to the practice to specific groups of people. Can you elaborate a bit on that?
IF: Absolutely. As I shared earlier, I am from Washington DC, and I learned about Reiki in Washington DC—a city, an urban area. I attended the unity metaphysical Christian Church at that time for 10 years. And that's where all these Reiki people were. I was also a transcendental meditator. All of this was sort of mixing up together. My church was multi-racial, but our minister was African American. And so, there were just a lot of African-American people in that congregation who were very interested in new-age at that time.

That's where I was nurtured. My first Reiki master was an African American woman. The first African American woman Reiki master in DC is a friend of mine, Gwen Mitchell, who's now in California. So, for me, [I felt there] was always many people of color practicing Reiki. I never thought so much about it. We had our own community of healers and spiritual people in DC who were African American because we were just relating to one another. But as I moved forward and I began teaching in Beaufort, South Caroline, [this changed.] South Carolina is actually a part of the Bible belt of the south. It was very interesting. Then, in 2000, I was very low-key about Reiki. There had been a lot of [bad] press around that time from the Southern Baptist and from the Catholic church about Reiki and it not being as sanctified as we know it to be. So, I didn't really speak much about being a Reiki teacher at that time, except I [when] was practicing massage. Some of the massage therapists in town knew. And my first student there in Beaufort, South Carolina, was a massage therapist from a family that has the biggest tomato business in our county. They still do. They just send out a lot of tomatoes everywhere.

I've been blessed because of how I look, Nathalie. I am not attached to any of it. This is just the divine plan that was created before I got here. For me to serve in the way that is the easiest path.  Probably, therefore, I will attract to myself many people of color who are African American, but not only them. I've taught so many people! I can't even tell you! And of all races! But in rural South Carolina, and people now are traveling to stay with me to learn. I have an Airbnb, so I have room for people. I've taught Reiki for cakes, for vegetables as an exchange. When there is an openness from anyone in my community, I want to say yes, you can be Reiki in whatever way we can make that happen.

I worked in mental health with youth for 10 years. There were teenagers that I worked with whom I attuned. Particularly a couple of young women who were pregnant and who were going to have babies. I was sharing Reiki with them, and it just made sense that they would become Reiki for their babies, for themselves, for their mental health, for their birthing experience. Oneness is so dear [to me]. It's one of my highest vibrations of me. I'm grateful that I live and that from that place of love and non-duality, and no separation to be able to serve those folks who look like me. Who feel comfortable [with me.] Because, as we know, at our level of evolution and growth, we will turn to go to people who we feel comfortable with and who we feel simpatico with. So, it's been a blessing for me.

As I shared earlier, my intention for teaching Reiki is to reawaken the truth of who we are inside of ourselves. For me, trauma healing begins inside. If we are attuned to Reiki and are carrying that Reiki energy in us, then the work has begun in healing, whatever traumas we are aware of.

DIR: This is so great because often, the communities who could benefit more from Reiki in a country where healthcare is so expensive are the ones who are less exposed to it. I believe you were requesting some grants to spread that work.

IF: Yes. I've been researching and having other research for me. I am particularly interested in grants that will support myself and other Reiki masters in attuning women of color, particularly young women. Now there are a lot more grants out to address particular challenges in the black community. And because I [am] a doula… I support a lot of women in my community who are doulas and midwives. We're all very familiar with the challenges of death rates of women of color [in childbirth] in our country, particularly in our state. We're one of the highest. So [I'm looking for] grants to work either from the doula side, or just for attuning women to become Reiki practitioners so that they can [share with] themselves, first, and then their families and their community. That's the reason why I'm actively engaged in researching funding.

DIR: Reiki can be translated as ancestral energy, and you perform a beautiful ritual with the Atlantic Ocean that has to do with that concept. Could you please share it with our listeners?
IF: I daily go to the beach, which is seven miles from my house. One day, soon after I moved to Beaufort when I was in meditation, it came to me that one of my purposes for being here is to go to the ocean and to send Reiki to the Atlantic Ocean. To the path of the slave trade from Western Africa and other parts of Africa to particularly South Carolina, which was the hub of the slave trade in America. So, every day as that is my practice. I send Reiki to that passage and to all the souls, including those folks who owned the boats and everybody involved. I send my love, my healing energy, my Reiki energy. And that's my contribution, you know? It's a calling. I don't have any other words to say it.

DIR: It's beautiful. When I was in Japan, the priest always told me, you don't sit just by yourself. You sit with all your ancestors. We are born into our personas for a reason. In my case, there is probably a lot of WWII trauma. I find it very beautiful that we can clear that energy that we carry from hundreds of years.
IF: To me, Nathalie, it's not hard, it's not that difficult, particularly if you carry Reiki. It's just another way of extending love—love is healing—and connect with our hearts. To connect to another energy, which is what trauma is. It's all energy. So we simply extend and expand the love and the Reiki from ourselves to bless whatever situations need to be blessed. So I'm grateful.

I want to go back a little bit to when you were talking about activism. Frans, to me, is a major activist in his way. He's so the inspiration. You are also in your way. Those of us who are out there, in whatever way, sharing this practice. Sharing Reiki is activism to me. I'm a child of the sixties and seventies. I was an activist and civil rights fighter. I was marching. I had a big Afro. That's my core—a big part of my spirit. This is a gift: to be able to be Reiki and to be an activist for love and oneness in the world.

 DIR: In a world where most Reiki practitioners are trained in 8-hour classes, what do you think about holding the space to healing trauma without any further training in this area? What advice would you give new Reiki practitioners interested in this area?
IF: You know, I'm a "simplist." I don't know if that's a word; I just made it up. I'm all about simplicity. About what is simple. And to me, energy is simple. Energy is basic. As I speak with my students or clients, I always bring it back to the basics—we're working with energy. And in this case, we're working with energy that has become frozen or stuck because of whatever the situation is at that time. There was fear that happened could not be metabolized, so could not be released. We don't have to program [Reiki] to address this or does that. I might speak out in public about addressing trauma, but I will work the same way with someone who comes, whatever they present. I will speak to them and give back to them the same words they gave me so that we will be in oneness and communication, but my practice is going to be the same.

I've had mental health background work and worked with women's health. As a massage therapist, there are some layers of knowledge I have about the body, about emotions, and about energy and how it shows up in us. But if you are a beginner, you don't need to have that. You want to just be in yourself and be present with whom you are with. Be in compassion with what they bring you and share Reiki. We can feel it when there is a softening. We can feel when there's not a softening. We can feel when energy has begun to move. We can be aware of the energy that's not moving. We can comfortably stay in that place and know that we are addressing whatever is being asked to be addressed without worry. And if we're interested in trauma, then there are books that we can read. There are beautiful works out there now that talk about trauma in ways that anyone can understand. We can inform ourselves that way, but it's not necessary. My belief is that we're Reiki, and we show up with Reiki. Reiki has its own intelligence, and it will do what it is here to do.

DIR: I love that: just place your hands. It's that simple. No need to analyze which chakra is off balance or to release specific trauma.  I feel we make it more complicated because we're afraid that just simple protocols are never enough.
IF: That has been a beautiful challenge, I believe, for Reiki practitioners and teachers throughout my experience with Reiki. Because of the simplicity and because we don't have to know a lot, we often feel that we are not doing enough, we're not giving enough, and we are not contributing enough. And nothing could be farther from the truth. Reiki is so profound and strong and powerful. We are contributing, and we don't have to know what has happened. We know we are one with our true selves as we sit with a person and surrender all that we are into the present moment in time. And share from our hearts and our hands. And know that as we continue and grow to own personal practices, Nathalie, we will know without a doubt, without having to have feedback, we will know that we're enough. We have given enough. And it's all good.

DIR: I always tell my students, "Keep practicing, because one day it switches, and you know it's enough." It doesn't take two weeks. For some people, it comes very fast; for others, like me, it may take years. Now I'm going to ask you another question that I ask everybody: what your biggest Reiki oops was, something that could be labeled as a "mistake" but gave you significant learning or insight into your practice. 
IF: That's a great question. For real, there are no mistakes, [But before] I was of the consciousness early on in my practice of "not enough." As massage therapists… we are moving, touching, and shaking, and whatever. And then you come to share Reiki. In the beginning, it's like, "Okay, how am I going to make sure this person feels that they have received?" I wanted to make sure they felt that they received something from me just as they felt when I gave them a massage.

It took quite a while for me to get out of my head and accept that I am one with Reiki. I am sharing Reiki, and I don't have to do Reiki. I don't have to force Reiki. I don't have to expect a certain outcome of experience from the person I shared it with. So yeah, that took a while. And I can't say to you when it shifted. I'm feeling that for that particular challenge, my practice was to continue to come in, continue to be present, and to sit as opposed to giving and doing.

I'm a big giver. That's another part of my learning: [to stop] the overboard of giving. In a lot of ways in my Reiki practice, even giving more time than was necessary. Giving more just because I wanted those people to have a certain experience.

Since meeting Frans and since really growing in my own daily practices of sitting and being present, being still, of the breathwork—all of that has shifted things enormously in the last two years. So, [I focus] my personal practice of being Reiki, being Reiki, being Reiki—and all these other pieces [or need to give more] will not be necessary. They will not even be a part of our consciousness of thoughts.

DIR: I think, honestly, this is the best advice because probably 99% of practitioners struggle exactly with that, especially when they start charging. The way I dealt with it was to do my homework every day, and I go to the session having done so, then it made it easier to let go of worry during the session. It was like, "Okay, I can only control what I can control, which is my self-practice. And if I do my self-practice and I go from a state of mind of love and compassion, all will be fine."
IF: Exactly. And those of us who practice, we get exactly what you're saying. One of the things that also shifted with me since studying and meditating with Frans and all my reading [was that he pointed to] the practice of oneness, of no separation.

Before I knew that, I got that. But in the last two years and being with COVID for a whole year really shifted [the practice for me.] The practice of there is only one of us here. There is no separation. There is no distance. There is no time. And so, this has informed my practice with people, particularly distance healing, which I never did much of before, because there were so many people in my world that I shared Reiki in person. But because of the pandemic, the distance healing requests grew.

My love of distance healing now has just expanded. The capacity to practice "no distance, no separation, no time" has given me so much joy. And [although I didn't need the feedback] everyone has shared with me that the experience of the receiver has been profound coming from that place of me sitting in that place of no distance, no separation, no time. And in my own daily practice, strengthening and supporting that. I'm in love with that. I'm in love with oneness.

DIR: I love how you still have so much joy in your practice after so many years!
IF: As I'm sitting in this space with you, I'm just realizing that [before] I was a doula, a massage therapist, a Reiki master teacher practitioner… I was doing all of that at one time. Depending on how many births I had a month, it determined how many clients I could take for Reiki. Now it's all Reiki. I do nothing else, except when folks invite me to present on some larger platforms, but [even then] Reiki is underneath it all. I might be talking about healing or birthing, but for me, Reiki is under all of it. I love this shift now. It's nothing but Reiki for me now.

I only am teaching all the time, and I share Reiki, not as much but somewhat, with folks in person and a lot at distance sessions. I mentor people who call and want to talk [about] their growth and transformation. I usually combine the hour with some distance healing Reiki too. As you spoke, Nathalie, that just dawned on me that this is all I'm doing right now. My whole life has shifted. And I am writing a book on Reiki, and one day that will complete my personal offering to the world.

DIR: I'm the first person to buy that book! Since you and Frans love each other so much, he has kindly agreed to join the conversation.
FRANS STIENE: For me, [Ifetayo], you really are my role model. I will be 55 this year, and I think, "Wow, at your age, you're still teaching, you're still are…in the zest of life, you still enjoy life so much… the beauty of life, the playfulness and laughter of life. You still have so much passion… not just for the system of Reiki, but for life itself.

That, for me, is what the system of Reiki is really. As you were discussing, we don't need to add anything to it. We don't need to invent a new system. We need to actually realize that simplicity [is powerful] and owning that simplicity. That the beauty of life can really be tasted and felt.

 IF: Absolutely, totally. I love it. And I agree so much with you. And that's what love [being] friends. We just laugh all the time. We [are] playful, and that's for me is life. And that is Reiki. That is the energy of healing, love, and joy.

DIR: Now I have a new goal. I want to like to practice with both of you together in the city! Ifetayo, before we end this interview, I want to ask if there is anything that I missed that you want to add?
IF:  I must just share that for Reiki practitioners to find a meditation practice [is] crucial—it is so necessary for our support to support ourselves and our own health as we practice and teach. Meditate, breathe, meditate. Those are the magic words.

DIVE INTO REIKI: Frank Arjava Petter is a world-renowned Reiki historian and teacher. Based in Greece, he travels worldwide, lecturing and teaching Jikiden Reiki workshops. He is a Dai Shihan in Jikiden Reiki and vice-president of the Jikiden Reiki Association founded by Tadao Yamaguchi in Kyoto, Japan.
His spiritual journey started at a very young age with meditation, spending 7 years practicing with Osho. Later, he moved to Japan and began teaching Reiki there in 1993.
He is the best-selling author of Reiki Fire, Reiki, the Legacy of Dr. Usui, The Original Reiki Handbook of Dr. Mikao Usui, co-author of The Spirit of Reiki, Reiki Best Practices, The Hayashi Reiki-Manual, Reiki ganz Klar, This is Reiki, and One with Reiki. Frank, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us.
FRANK ARJAVA PETTER: Thank you very much, Nathalie. It's a pleasure. I love talking to people. Like all of us—all of you listeners and we included—[what] I miss the most is the contact with people. The one-on-one contact, the hands-on contact. But we have the technology to at least keep in touch like this, and I appreciate it.

DIR:  Agree! I wish we could this in person. Hopefully, we'll do it soon. You have a fascinating origin story because you started your spiritual search young. Can you talk about your first experiences?
FAP: I'm not like a lot of people who are into spirituality and will say, "Oh, you know, I remember when I was three years old, and suddenly, I saw the light." Not at all. For me, it started when I was around 15, 16 [years old.] I started reading books on Zen, which I liked very much. I hated school, so, in my mind, after school, I was not going to go to university. I was going to go to Japan, enter a Zen monastery, and never be seen again. Ever. That was my secret plan, but of course, it became completely different. 
About the same time, I went on vacation to Brittany, France, with my parents. I remember one day sitting on the beach was in the spring break. There were no tourists there, and you had like miles of to your left miles of beach to the right. There was nobody. And I just see this dog from, I don't know, two miles away. A big white kind of retriever or something. And he comes to me like dogs do: he walks on the beach, going left, going right, sniffing here and there. But he went straight for me. I stretched out my arm, and he sniffed my hand. I looked at the dog, and I thought, I want to be like this: straightforward, fearless, and tender. 
A couple of years later, my parents and I got some letters from my brother who had gone to India overland from Germany and ended up with Osho, who, at the time, was the antichrist for everybody. There was very bad press about him everywhere. Whatever you heard or saw was just horrendous. We thought, "Oh, my God, my older brother has gone nuts. We got to do something about it!" So, my parents decided to send me there just to check up on him. to take a look. To see if he was okay. If he was okay, fair enough. If he wasn't okay, try and persuade him to come home and leave all of this craziness behind. I went to India to the Osho ashram in March 1979. I took one step into that place, and I thought, "I don't ever want to go anywhere else ever again." That's how [my journey] really started. At the time, I was 18. It hit me hard.
Ever since that moment, my sole viewpoint in life is spiritual development. For me in the first few years, and then—after I started teaching in the early and mid-nineties—also for my students. This is what I'm concerned with: spiritual growth. People waking up with me. Waking me up. Being present, showing people how to be present, how to deal with themselves, and how to live a beautiful contented, happy, conscious, and peaceful life.
This is my whole purpose, but at the same time, I am not out there in space. Thinking only about all these things. I'm a super simple person, very simple-minded. I'm here living in a small Greek village with about a thousand people, a very traditional place. It's super easy. I love everybody. The people like me, we can talk about the weather, about potatoes. We can talk about nothing at all. We can have a glass of whiskey together. I'm really a very simple-minded person. 
My intention is to do everything in life with a spiritual attitude. If you do a mundane thing with a spiritual attitude, it becomes like a prayer, a meditation, a celebration of life. And if you do something "spiritual" with a mundane attitude, it just becomes a waste of time.

DIR: I love that because when we practice Reiki, we have trouble accepting our "regular" life. We keep it separate versus seeing our everyday life as practice. The other thing we do is overcomplicating it. What is your perception of Reiki right now? 
FAP: Reiki is the simplest thing in life at all. I learned Reiki in 1992. I became a teacher in 1993 and started teaching after five, six months or so after I digested all of that. I thought Reiki was this complicated thing. Then seven years later, I came to my third Reiki teacher to Chiyoko Yamaguchi. When we asked her a complicated question, she always looked at us and said, "You think too much." Like a grandma would say to you and not like, somebody's arrogant from a place of "I know better than you, and you will learn one day when you're my age." Don't think so much. Reiki is such a simple thing. It's the simplest thing in the world. You know how it works? She said, "It goes like this: on [places his hand on his body], off [lifts his hand from the body]." That's all you need to know. Go out and touch people. There's nothing you need to do: no rituals, no prayers, no symbols, no nothing just: on, off. This is how I practice it. 
And this is how I practice it here in the village too. In all the Greek villages, at least the ones on the islands that I know of, people get nicknames. And they get them very quickly, but they stick…. My nickname in the village is the German doctor. This is how people see me. When somebody has an injury or feels sick, they come, and [my wife and I] treat them. We don't do anything spiritual, like talking about energy and all that. We go, Okay. Sit down or lay down and so on. And that's it. It's very simple. Reiki is very, very simple. I completely avoid all the esoteric stuff when I talk about it—not only with simple-minded villagers—but in general, because we don't need it. It's not necessary. 

DIR: Agree. Reiki is so simple, but that doesn't mean it's not deep. In Western culture, we often confuse simple with shallow or uninteresting, but Reiki has a lot of depth. Can you talk about that?
FAP: The only thing that really matters is what you have here now and what you have and what you are here and now. Just you, in your simplicity, breathing in, breathing out. That's it. Nothing else matters: tomorrow never comes; yesterday is gone. So, what have we got? We've got this moment. In this moment, we have a choice. Whether we want to spend this moment dreaming or being present. And Reiki is a wonderful tool to help you be present in this moment. All bodywork is like that, really, because touch anchors both the person who gives the treatment and the one who receives it in the present.

DIR: I love that concept of touch as an anchor. Often, we're touching to heal, to do something anchoring both of us in the moment. That is beautiful.
FAP: Yeah. Let's say somebody experienced something traumatic. You give them a hug. The more you hold them in your arms, the same thing happens. They immediately come to the present and maybe come out of their traumatic movement. They come back to the now. And when you're in the now, you're okay. 
Reiki brings you here. And when we are here, what problem do we have here? We don't have any problems. Problems are always either far ahead or far behind.

DIR: And when you're in the middle of a problem, you're present. You have to be.
FAP:  Right. For example, when you have an accident, suddenly everything turns into slow motion. You function perfectly. You do everything right. And then afterward, when it's finished…. [it's another thing.]
The first and foremost thing about Reiki is that it brings both the giver and the receiver into the present moment. And only in the present moment can things change. Things can happen.
The next thing people often get confused about is that they think, "Uh, this or that person is such a great healer!" Somebody asked me recently, "Who's the greatest healer on the planet at the moment?" And I said, "You know, I will tell you who it is. It's the human body. The human body is the greatest healer." 
It's not the Reiki person or the shaman, or someone else who does the healing. The body heals itself if it can. But there are obstacles to healing, and those must be removed. And this is what the Reiki person or the shaman does. He energizes the body so that those obstacles can be removed. In terms of Reiki, those obstacles are toxicity, and the removal happens by detoxing. The body begins to detox, and then healing happens if it's still possible.
When the time is up, the time is up. You can stand on your head; do all sorts of tricks, and it's not going to work. The important thing for us as Reiki [practitioners] to understand is that this is not our business. We're not here to decide who stays and who goes. We don't know what the situation for our client is. We know nothing. We may know that they have a certain illness, but we don't know why they have it. We don't know what purpose that may serve in the long run… You don't know where they are on their journey from ignorance to self-realization. And this is not for you to judge. All we do is place our hands on that person and trust that the healing will happen in due time. Whenever that might be.

DIR: I resonate very strongly with this. There is a lot of pressure on Reiki practitioners to "diagnose" or "read" the situation in some lineages. What advice will you give to a practitioner who feels they need to get the "healing" right?
FAP: In Jikiden Reiki, what we learned to do is called in Japanese byosen, the body's reaction to the incoming energy. We evaluate with the perception in our hands. So there's some kind of natural diagnosis happening, but it's not medical. And it's not that we look for it either. It's just perception the same way that you say, put your hand in the fridge, and you know that it's cold. You don't have to sit there and think, "Oh, I'm going to check the fridge from the inside and see what that temperature is." No, you just put your hand inside, and you know, "Uh, cold!" It's like that. 
From an Asian point of view, they would say your ego is not required in the work at all. Now, if we define this from an Oriental way, it becomes very uncomfortable. So, from a Western, let's say psychological understanding, maybe we think of ego as the negative aspects of our psycho-emotional selves. Arjava is egoistic. He thinks only of himself. He wants more and more money! He is like this. He is an a$#*!
From an Oriental point of view, because the Japanese are Buddhist and they believe in emptiness being the source of everything, they believe that there is no separate identity, no separate self. There is no ego. That ego is the only thing that doesn't exist. The only thing that is not [ego] is that spaciousness. That is your presence, that blue sky. Everything else is clouds passing in that blue sky. 
So, if I, during the treatment, go and do all sorts of stuff, the Japanese traditional Reiki practitioner would say, "Get the hell out of there. What are you doing there? This is not an ego trip here. You're supposed to just be emptying. Let that pass through you and leave it up to people upstairs." That's how they would look at it there. From a Japanese point of view, ego is everything that we would call "I." Everything that defines us has nothing to do with a Reiki treatment. You leave that outside.

DIR: Which is a practice per se—and it's hard! But the good news is that, in time, you start feeling a little bit of that. For me, emptiness also means inner spaciousness. We're so crammed with things, by creating the little space with meditation and Reiki practice is such a relief—because we always think of practitioners helping others, but we must start with ourselves. So, I love the concept of emptiness. 
Once we were talking about Osho, you mentioned something that I love. When I asked you how the Osho ashram was, you laughed at me because I imagined you attending like 300 orgies. And you're like, "Nathalie, every teacher is a mirror." Would you care to elaborate on the concept of the teacher as a mirror when it comes to Reiki?
FAP: Not only is the teacher a mirror, but everybody in every situation in life is a mirror. This pandemic situation is a mirror. Let's start here because we are all concerned with this at the moment. 
Let's say you have some fear of survival during the COVID situation; that's going to come up. If you have some unethical business ideas in the COVID situation, that will come up. Whatever there is inside, whatever is hiding under the surface will come up. It's like, you're looking at this thing all the time, and you see yourself. So, what is required of us to do is to be aware of what is happening: when you're being mirrored, when to be reflective, to look, not to judge.
If you're in the teacher's role, then, of course, that becomes vital. Because, first of all, you are mirroring your students, but they also mirror you. It's not one-way traffic. It's two mirrors looking at each other. Two pieces of emptiness looking at each other. That's an amazing thing. And it requires great awareness not to project anything into the other. You cannot ask your students to do this practice, but you can ask it of yourself, so you don't project into your students and don't bring them down. You don't force your worldview on them but give them space and encouragement to always reflect. To look at themselves, learn from all their clients, from all their friends, from all situations. This is the real job of a Reiki teacher. [Teaching the system] is the smaller part.

DIR: What you are saying is very important, but often training consists of attunement and a manual or a video, or a few hours of in-person training. What do you think about the current state of Reiki training today?
FAP: What I think is just my personal opinion. I always filter everything through the wisdom of my own heart. I learned that very early on. But one of the things I learned from Osho is don't believe anything that anybody says, but always check it. To know if it is valuable inside or not. If it works for you.
So, I would say, as a Reiki teacher, what do I feel comfortable with? How do I feel comfortable teaching it? I feel comfortable teaching Reiki in person. I don't feel comfortable teaching Reiki online. So, I don't do it, but it's not a judgment. If you're comfortable doing online courses, that is your business, and you have to live with it…
For me, it's not an option. I don't like it, and I don't do it. That's what I'm very happy [online] talking to people and discussing things around the topic of Reiki, but no actual teaching. I wait until I can touch my students again... For me, it's almost more important to go and eat lunch together during the workshop because that's where you really see what is happening inside people when there are no facets, no concepts. When there are no roles of teacher and student, when we are all the same, I think is when you really see things changing. To me, that only happens in the presence of one another. This is how I see it. I know that many people like to teach online. It's easier. It's convenient. You save all the airline fees, the hotels, the venues. I understand all that. People need Reiki a lot. I understand all that, but I'm not going to do it. I wait. I prefer to starve.
DIR: No, please, don't starve!
FAP: This is my truth. And I'm not saying it's the truth. There is no truth. There's only subjectivity. What I suggest is that you go inside and see, "What do you feel comfortable with?" And then you do that. Don't listen to anybody else. There's nobody smarter than you. There's nobody who knows better than you. Ask yourself what to do, how to do it, and then you are good. 
In our tradition, the teaching guidelines are quite serious and severe, but teaching, let's day starts with Shoden-Reiki 1. One then goes to Okuden-Reiki two. And then the different levels of the teachers. To become a fully certified teacher will take at least two or three years under tutelage. Plus, we have rules about how many hours of treatments one has to document in writing. It's like 120 hours of treatments with at least 40 different clients. You have to document it all and send it to the Institute. And then we decide whether we take somebody. So, we take that very seriously. You cannot do this on the weekend with us because we don't feel comfortable with that.

DIR: But I think this is good for the student. I got those eight-hour training, and when I started offering treatments, I was so insecure. I didn't have the proper training and support. And when I called to have a mentoring session, the answer I got was, "You don't need mentoring; you need a session to balance your chakras!" I knew then I was not going to do my Reiki master with that teacher. I feel we want to go through levels fast, but then we crumble. We need to start building a solid foundation. I think training for more hours is a better idea and waiting before becoming a teacher immediately.
FAP: Let's look at the traditional way that this was done. When I learned from Chiyoko sensei, you couldn't even ask to become a teacher. You would learn and learn and learn and learn. At some point, she would say to you, "Okay, now it's time." That was the traditional way. Of course, the Western world is not going to work like that. People don't understand this concept, especially where you live [in New York City.] People are so competitive, and they want everything right now. 
But what I'm saying is to get a good and solid Reiki education. There's no rush anyway. Why do you want to reach something? There's nothing to reach. You are not a better person if you're a Reiki master or a Reiki 1 practitioner. You're the same. It makes no difference. The difference is made by the work that you have done.
It's the inner work that we do [that makes the difference.] And, of course, the practical work that we do.
In Lesvos Island, where we live, we built a dojo training center. In the summer, that place is open for treatments every day, between 4:00 and 7:00 PM. Sometimes there are 30 people giving treatments every day all summer. So, we have maybe three, four, or five clients. And then a whole bunch of people, four or five on each table treating and treating, learning and learning. This is how you learn: by practicing. 

DIR: You mentioned your teacher Chiyoko Yamaguchi. Can you explain who she was?
FAP: Chiyoko Yamaguchi was my third teacher. And after I met her, I just taught what I had learned from her and left all the other [learnings] behind. She was a student of Hayashi sensei and learned Reiki from him in 1937. By the time I met her in 2000, she had 60 some years of daily practice. 
I asked her once how many treatments had she done? She said two or three every day for 63 years. I calculated it once. That's a lot. She was like an encyclopedia. You could ask her anything, "What do you do with fibromyalgia?" "Oh, yeah, in 1952, I treated this woman, and you do this. And then you do this and that." 
When I met her, I was already a well-known Reiki teacher. I had written three or four books. Everybody at that time knew who I was. And she said, "Okay, so you've been practicing for a while. Do you give treatments? I said, "Yes." She said, "Have you witnessed any healing?" I said, "Yes." She said, "Well, what?" I was like on the witness stand. I couldn't believe it because usually, Japanese people are not so inquisitive. "I'd been treating people with cancer or with whatever." "Have they gotten better?" she asked. I said, "Yes." She said, "I always ask people who are teaching Reiki, do you do treatments? Usually, they say, "No, I'm too busy teaching. And then I ask him, what in the world do you teach if you have no experience." 
I think that sums it up here. If we teach, especially if we teach, we must continue doing treatments. We must learn from every new client. The moment you stop learning, you're dead. You're finished. You might as well stay home and retire.
In my Reiki practice, we do it the same way as [all Japanese arts.] The focus is on the work. If you do your work, you progress. If you don't, you don't. It is not a judgment. It's not for everybody. But Reiki is not something that you need to take off some degree or something. It's not about that. It's about reaching a certain maturity in your practice, and you get that only by practicing. It's as simple as that. 

DIR: Often, I get questions, and my answer is to go and practice. Why? Because I can talk my head out, but it will still just be a concept. If you don't practice, you will come back with the same question because some questions are only answered by practice. And only have specific questions when you practice. 
Changing course, I like to ask my guests about their biggest Reiki oops. Because most practitioners look at someone like you and think you are so advanced that you get everything right all the time. You went to Japan, have practiced for years, wrote books… "I will never be like him!" 
But Reiki teachers are human too. Can you share one mistake that ended up being a great lesson?
FAP: That list is long! I will tell you the one I did regarding my writing. I have no journalistic training at all. In 1994, a long time ago, I found the Usui memorial in Tokyo, which at that time we thought nobody had ever seen before, no foreigner. We translated the inscription. It said something about the Usui sensei's life that he had a very loving character, and he was humorous and was a very good speaker. And the people were hanging on to his kimono to get some of his energy, that he was married, had two kids, and so on. And that we should follow the legacy of the Meiji emperor. Period. A full period. The next sentence: Kyo dakewa. Ikarus na. Shinpai suna… the Reiki principles. So when I read it, I thought, "Wow, the Reiki principles are the legacy of the Meiji emperor." And I wrote that.

DIR: Oh, that is the source of the confusion. [Laughs] I've been researching that, and I kept hitting a wall every time I was trying to find the relationship between the Meiji emperor and the Reiki precepts!
FAP: It wrote that. And then, just after the book was out, we found out that those two parts of the inscription have nothing to do with one another. That was one of the big mistakes I made. And even now, people in their classes say that the Reiki principles come from the Meiji emperor. This was my fault, my fuck up. Sorry guys!
Usui sensei put them together from what we can call the zeitgeist, the spirit of the days. That was kind of common in spiritual circles. I researched lots of other spiritual groups, and they all have these kinds of precepts. It's a very Japanese thing. Even elementary schools will have some kind of ethical backbone or precepts hanging in the principal's office or general assembly.

DIR: This may have been my favorite mistake ever! It's precious! 
Talking about another thing, Reiki practitioners are often confused: the symbols. Some lineages draw them. Some meditate with them. How do you work with the Reiki symbols? 
FAP: The Reiki symbols are tools given to the student at a certain level after they've acquired certain skills. In Jikiden Reiki, the first symbol [is given in] the first level. We get the other symbols in the second level. It's all done differently. 
Perhaps one thing that is good to say is that we seem to think that we are initiated into a degree or initiated into a symbol in our Western Reiki lineages. And if you ask a traditional Japanese Reiki practitioner or Reiki teacher, they will say that you are not initiated into a degree or a symbol, but into Reiki again and again and again.
In most Reiki lineages, there are four symbols. There are the three for the second degree and the master symbol. In Japanese lineages, there is no master symbol. It was added by students of Takata sensei after she passed away. There was recently was an interview with Phyllis Furumoto [Mrs. Takata's granddaughter and heir] before she died where she finally said it. I've been saying it for 20 years, but nobody believed me. 

DIR: I love the difference that you made: we are initiated in Reiki over and over again, not attuned to a symbol. 
FAP: The symbols are very specific. They have a purpose. You use the first symbol for this, the second for that, the third for that. You don't mix them in the traditional school because they have each a purpose of their own. There's no need to mix anything. It's not that mixing is bad or will make you explode or something—it's not necessary. 

DIR: Every lineage has a different approach. I love minimalism, so the Japanese style fits me better. 
FAP: If you ask me, "What kind of Reiki do you practice?" I will say, look, the Reiki that comes out of my hands doesn't have a label. It's just pure unpolluted life energy. And [it's the same as] what comes out of Nathalie's hands, out of everybody who's listening or not, out of every mother's hands when she's treating her child. There is no label. 
There is only a difference in practice and philosophy. Think of what we talked about earlier: the mirror. Look at the practice and choose the one that suits you. I have had a long history of Japanese culture in this life. I lived there for 12 years. I had my first Japanese girlfriend when I was 18. I have this predisposition to all things Japanese… So, I choose that [style]. But if you ask me if it's better than any other kind of Reiki… Ph my God! How can my Reiki be better than yours? Only somebody who doesn't understand the basics of Reiki would say that. Reiki does not have a label. If you think that you're better than somebody else, you really need to look at yourself, work on that first, and better not teach others.

DIR: I feel like I am going to quote you like 300 times in the future! I wanted to close the interview by discussing your two most recent books.
FAP: I published in November a Reiki book called One with Reiki. It explains Reiki's background: Japanese [culture and] spirituality. So, people who practice Reiki can understand it better. 
A few weeks ago, I published a book that's called …Is… about living in the present, being present, living a meditative and fun life. It has lots of breathing techniques, meditation techniques, etc. It's really a fun project. The editor was laughing. She said, "Oh, my! The word Reiki appears for the first time on page 156!" 
I wrote it because I see the Corona [pandemic] as a chance to do introspection, to grow. For self-realization and to do all the things that you have not done until now. Maybe some of which you have avoided until now. To fix problems that you might still have not addressed and let go of your baggage.

DIR: I've read a couple of chapters, and I really enjoyed the tone: it's joyful and warm.
FAP: For me, what is important…is to have awareness. To be present in everything. Otherwise, you cannot do your practice. Reiki is the same. But what you also need is tenderness. Tenderness for the people that you're working with, but also for the steering wheel of your car while you're driving, or for the rocks, or for the animals—for everything. If you mix awareness, mindfulness, tenderness, and kindness, that's really an incredible mixture. And that will break your heart open like a pomegranate.
DIR: Your appreciation of tenderness really comes through in the book. It's a word we don't hear a lot about Reiki. We hear a lot about doing techniques, but tenderness is much more important than perfect technique. I'm just grateful we can have these conversations and your wisdom with the world and share your tenderness. Thank you so much for all your time and wisdom!
FAP: Thank you!