DIVE INTO REIKI: Today I have a wonderful guest, Bill Stevens. Bill Stevens is a member of the Congregation of Christian Brothers and he taught 25 years in schools, before training to become a hospital chaplain. He served as a chaplain for ten years at three different hospitals in NY and NJ. While at St. Peter’s Medical Center in New Jersey he began to experience people with HIV/AIDS coming into the hospital in the 80’s, which led him to establish a nonprofit organization, Chrysalis Ministry, to reach out to those who experienced this disease as a death sentence at that time. It was during this twelve-year period of time that Bill incorporated Reiki into his ministry. After that, Bill worked with the visiting nurse supporting people at the end of life.  Bill has studied with teachers such as Khandro Kunzang Dechen Chodron, Gilbert Gallego, Hyakuten Inamoto, Frans Stiene and Kathleen Prasad. He still teaches at 88 from his home in New Rochelle, New York.  Bill, thank you so much for saying yes to the interview!
BILL STEVENS: You're welcome. Delighted to be with you, Nathalie.

DIR: I met you first at a play day with Frans Stiene, and then we had the retreat together in Lancaster. It was such a pleasure to practice together.
BS: Absolutely. Yeah, I remember that. That was a great weekend retreat.

DIR: I always start with the same question: when was the first time you came in contact with Reiki? What was your first experience?
BS: Well, it was with my teacher, Penny Nissen. As I started my ministry to people with Aids, I heard of a chaplain in San Francisco working in the hospitals out there. He was doing Reiki and I said, “What is Reiki?” I didn't know what it was. But he gave me the inspiration to find out. And I found the only Reiki master at the time in New Jersey—that was back in 1991—that I knew of anyway, there may have been others.

DIR: There was also no internet to look for them!
BS: Exactly. I made an arrangement to do a weekend course. I brought somebody who was living with HIV with me, and a woman, a social worker who was working with the community. The three of us went out and we did a weekend with this person, Penny Nissen. And we learned level 1 Reiki. I used that one class for the next seven, eight years, doing my work.

Bill Stevens,

DIR: Wow. I love that because we rush so much from Reiki 1 to Reiki 2 and Reiki 3. We go as fast as we can. And yet you did amazing work just with your Reiki level 1.
BS: Oh yeah, yeah. It was surprising to me. I didn't necessarily have any experience or was I able to talk with other people who were offering Reiki. I kept doing Reiki mainly because people were having such a positive experience. I wasn't feeling any big amounts of energy myself, but I just went into my meditation, followed the instructions that my teacher gave me for level 1 and just trusted [laughs]. And people just had some good experiences. I just was marveled by what they shared with me. I used to offer Reiki in various settings. I would go into a support group and while they were having their support group if someone wanted to have a Reiki session, I would be in another room. They could just slip out of the group, and come, and go back into the group.

I remember one person; he was really fighting an addiction and he had some mental issues as well. He came in for a session. At the end of the session, he just told me, “Wow.” He had a great experience, the most spiritual experience he ever experienced in his life. And I just said, “Wow” with him [laughs].

I would visit people in the hospital. I remember going into one particular person who had a lot of pain. I offered him Reiki and it helped his pain. It surprised both of us that the pain went away. And I visited him a few times, and he would just shout out, “Oh, here comes my pain medication” [Laughs.] I was afraid that the nurses would think I was bringing him some additional drugs!

DIR: That you were like the secret dealer of painkillers!
BS: But it was because of those experiences and similar ones, that I just persevered. I knew that it was making a difference for people

DIR: I appreciate you so much saying this. I have a lot of my students or people who approach me because of the podcast. They're so concerned about not feeling all those very strong sensations that some people feel. And when you say that you practice just trusting. And it works! I think it's going make them feel very much like, “I'm okay. I'm not doing anything wrong.”
BS: Yes. I think Frans Stiene, in his class, he taught me that. To let go of all [of that.] If you feel it, great. It's a gift. But don’t focus your attention on that, because it's not the essential part of what we're doing.

DIR: You sent me a lot of beautiful texts written by you. There was one where you were talking about taking your chaplain collar off and focused on holding the space. Could you elaborate a little bit on that experience that you had?
BS: Oh, yes. I was teaching for 25 years in our schools. I was in a very structured community life. You wear the black robes and the collar, and you tend to hide behind that. I mean, this is who you present to the world. That's all they see, whatever, whatever that means to them.

When I began my hospital chaplaincy, it was kind of like a clinical pastor education program. It's a very formal, structured training. We had three different sections of about 12 weeks each. We went through the first section of 12-week training and my counselor, the one running the program for our particular group of six people, she gave me the challenge to wear a suit the next time, without any collar. No black robes.

I was 45-50 years old at the time, and I said, “Oh, that's a challenge for me!” It was a big deal for me. I went into the hospital the first day, and I'd hear, “Hi brother. Hi brother.” No one made any remarks at all. But when I went in the room [without my collar], it was more of a challenge. But again, sometimes people threw me out of the room because of the collar! This time I had to go in as Bill Stevens, and that was a different experience. There's no agenda that people had put on me as I entered the room, you know? That was it was very growthful experience.

 DIR: Like you couldn't hide or protect behind anything. A little like our practice: you just place your hand and there is nothing to hide, nothing to do beyond trusting and being present.
BS: Yes, just going into your own meditation, and that’s all.

DIR: After many years of practicing Reiki Level 1 , what made you feel you needed or wanted to go further?
BS: I began to hear people speak about another level, and the opportunity arose. A teacher appeared. That always happens, when the student is ready, the teacher appears.  I did go to Leslie Mondou. She was offering a Level 2 class in the same lineage. And so I did take that. It was in that class that I heard of a teacher in in Maryland, Kunzang Dechen Chodron. She was an amazing woman. She was a nurse up in Vermont who was exposed to Reiki, but she had a transformative experience and was led to a Buddhist teacher who was giving a presentation. She became drawn to do to join by the Buddhist community in Maryland. And she was in Vermont. She left her profession, her friends, [and] her family. I think she was divorced at the time. but she did have a son. She made arrangements for him to be taken care of. I think he was going into college at the time. She went into this Buddhist community in Maryland and had incredible experience just for her own personal growth. She became involved with the Reiki Jin Kei Do lineage.

Seiji Takamori was one of the prominent people in that lineage. And he was a monk in Japan who got permission to go study over in Nepal and India. He went up into the mountains and studied with yogis for 20 years. He got deep into the Buddhist meditation practices and deep into the chakra work, energy work, and Qigong. That got all thrown into the teachings of the Reiki Jin Kei Do. And that's what my teacher experienced. She used to go over to Nepal maybe once or twice a year and spend a month in meditation with her teachers over there.

I did about 300 hours of study with her. I did the Reiki Jin Kei Do level 1, 2, 3, and two deeper teachings with what they called the Buddho EnerSense, which were a very deep Buddhist practices. It was challenging for me. I probably didn't understand it all [laughs], but I was very much exposed to it. I developed a deeper meditation practice, and I did do the master level with one of her students. That’s when I began to teach Reiki. Because the whole Aids development shifted at some point when people didn't have the medications, they needed to extend their life. And I was able to begin to teach some of the people that I used to serve with Reiki, so they could incorporate that into their lives and make that part of their recovery.

 DIR: We often practice Reiki with the expectation of becoming better, of enjoying a better life. But with end-of-life, it's a completely different perspective of what Reiki can offer. What did your practice offer them?
BS: The biggest part of the Chrysalis Ministry was to create a safe space for people. We had a wonderful nun who opened up a retreat house to us, and we did four-day retreat programs there. That was a time when people were afraid to come out of their houses, or even afraid to tell their family that they had Aids. There was such a stigma attached to it. Something very similar to COVID, the pandemic, that fear around it. So, they came together then at this retreat house. For 10 years, we did about four retreats a year, with about 50-60 people at a time. Some came back certainly more than once. Sometimes they would meet relatives there. They each had kept their secret from each other. It was people from all walks of [life], people who were homeless, people who were in shelters, people from Wall Street, gay men, straight men and women, people who picked up Aids from drug addiction. It was just a women and men together. It was just a great thing for them to come together and be safe. Then we broke them up into groups and they had all sorts of different programs going on. A big part of that [was that] every day we offered them a massage, and Reiki. Whichever they decided to choose and made that part of the day. We got massage practitioners volunteering their time to come at that time to offer this to them. It was really a wonderful experience for us and for them as well.

DIR: That is beautiful because they were not being touched a lot at the time. People were really scared of contagion. For them to receive touch it must have been very special.
BS: I became a massage practitioner as well for that purpose. Because [there were treated] almost like the leper, the untouchable, so they really appreciated that.

DIR: Reiki makes me feel safe in your body. The fact that you created a safe community where they could be safe, I find it a beautiful expression of the Reiki.
BS: Absolutely.

DIR: And from then you went to work with end-of-life services, right?
BS: Towards the end of the Chrysalis Ministry, I had open heart surgery, like an emergency. I took some time off. During that sabbatical year so to speak , I heard of end-of-life program that was being authored up in San Francisco by a Frank Ostaseski. I was kind of drawn to do that, probably because of my own experience around my open-heart surgery and my experience with the AIDS community. They’re very much end-of-life-issues. This was an opportunity to go deeper into that, to jump in and learn more about the end of life and how I could be with other people. And also just for myself personally. It was a great program and there's about 25 of us there. There were doctors, nurses, social workers, chaplains, volunteers. It was a great group of people.

We came together four days a month. And then we would go back to where our home was and do some field work. That threw us right into the situation so that we could come back with our experiences each month and talk about them. And also have that experience of being with someone at the end of life. There was a hospice, the Visiting Nurse association, in New Jersey. I asked them if I could volunteer there to do my field work. And so that's how that all started. That was a full year program. We went out there four days, each month and I learned so much. The teachers there were just incredible.

DIR: And can you share a little bit of some of your experience with of end-of-life care and Reiki practice?
BS: I asked the Visiting Nurses if I could get a job there as a chaplain. They said yes. I guess I was 70-years-old at the time. I think I said I would come in three days a week. I gave myself a little break [laughs]. No sooner I got into the work, I said, “Well, you know, I would like to offer Reiki to my patients. And they had a little problem with it, so they said, “Well, we have to go up before the board of directors and ask them about it.” So I had to leave my case before the board of directors and they put me on probation [laughs].

What I did first of all, I taught a group of nurses. I threw it out there, “Would anyone like to take a Reiki class?” Which they did and they enjoyed it. I would have someone send me patients, since they knew what it was and how they profited by it. Then I also asked the director. I said, “Whenever you have a real bad day, just give me a call, I'll come by, and I'll give you a session.” That happened pretty quickly; those days for her came up very often! So, she called me. I went in and gave her about a half hour Reiki session. She was convinced. I didn't have to I hide in my corner after that.

DIR: I love how you keep it so simple: when you have a bad day, come, and try this. That’s it.
BS: Right? Yeah. [Giving] an experience, right? Not to give a big spiel about it [laughs].

 DIR: What tip would you give someone who is working on an end-of-life program or in palliative services end of life?
BS: Well, yeah. I had to learn all that, you know, by making mistakes. When I called people, seeing if they wanted to visit, I got into the habit of saying Reiki is a spiritual, healing practice, which people find very relaxing and comforting. That's all the information I gave them on the phone. I had about less than a minute to ask them if they would like me to drop by. So, I couldn't go into a big history of Reiki. I felt that if a person was interested in spirituality or interested in healing, then they would be open to it. And if those words turned them off, then they would then they would say, “Thanks very much but no.” But that was okay. At least the door was open for people who were familiar with those words and wanted me to come and visit.

My only equipment was I had a little music box and my stool. When I came into the house, or the hospital room, I would decide where I wanted to sit. If I came into the house and the person was sitting in the chair, then I brought my stool over to the chair. If they're lying on the couch, I brought my stool right next to the couch. If they're lying in their bedroom, I brought my stool right there. And if I went into a hospital room instead of dragging chairs around, I could just bring my stool close to wherever the patient was in the bed.

It's amazing what little space you had there, but you could fit your stool right in there and set yourself down right beside them. And then that was where I would start offering Reiki to them. I wasn't doing a lot of hand positions. It was just placing your hands off the body or sometimes just being in your meditation. But the responses [were] very powerful in the sense of people being relieved of their pain or going into a very peaceful and relaxed place.

You never knew what kind of a situation you would go into. I remember once of just going into this room [and it] was almost totally dark. The whole room was lined with people in the chairs, and this bed was in the middle. The woman was in the bed, moaning very loudly. I had two of her children on the bed with her, and the husband on the side of the bed. I just went in and opened up my stool. I was at the end of the bed and began to offer Reiki without saying anything. At one point her husband had to leave the room and he signaled me to come closer. I was there about 45 minutes to an hour when finally the woman seemed to stop moaning and she seemed to be more peaceful. I stayed there another half hour, and then I left. Maybe a couple of hours after I left, she passed, and the husband told the social worker that she had been in this kind of condition, moaning and being very anxious, for a couple of weeks. And that was the most peaceful that he had seen her. And she died very peacefully at that time.

I always ask myself, what is Reiki? I don't know [laughs]. It's something very profound. It's not, not anything magical that you do because I know myself, [and] it's not anything coming from me. There's no magical thing that you're doing. You're kind of just becoming one with the energy. I love the way that Kathleen Prasad teaches Reiki: just becoming one with the animals. Just offering that space to them, but not pushing it on them. And Frans [Stiene] letting me know that this is a spiritual practice. The more you do your practice, paying attention to the precepts, opening up your heart, practicing your meditation and holding that space… the more you can do that, then healing is a possibility. But you don't have any expectations. You’re not to figure things out. You're not promising people anything. What is Reiki? A lot of times Frans used to tell us, “Just be Reiki.” Just be love, just, just be that. I think healing is like a side effect of your practice. The more you practice, the more possibilities there are.

 DIR: I love the way you expressed that, “The more you practice, the more possibilities, right?” Often new students try to understand what Reiki is with their head. But you can only understand through practice. What is your daily practice Bill? Like, because I know you also practice Tai Chi and Qigong.
BS: Well, each morning, I go for a walk. Then I come back home, and I'll do a half hour to 45 minutes of Tai Chi, and Qigong. That kind of quiets my mind. And then I will do a half hour to 45-minute meditation. I make sure I do that every day. But then I get to offer myself Reiki at night when I'm going to sleep [for] probably close to 45 minutes. When I wake up in the morning, I'll give myself Reiki as well. That's really my spiritual practice, you know?

DIR: I love your saying your spiritual practice being a chaplain. I often get emails from people who are worried about religion and Reiki. For those people who are a bit concerned about mixing religion and Reiki, could you share your point of view?
BS: Well, yes, I could. [Laughs]. At the hospice, I would be asked to do part of the volunteer training, talking about chaplaincy, talking about Reiki as well. When I mentioned Reiki as a spiritual practice, sometimes there would be a clergy person present, and they'd be kind of shocked that I would put Reiki as a spiritual practice, you know. Sometimes we would get into a little back and forth on it, but sometimes they would just be visibly upset with that. At one point, there was another chaplain at the VNA and he, very specifically, went into a discussion with me about Reiki being a spiritual practice. I think it's because of its Buddhist background. I think it's because like the church is the only one who has that authority, you know. That no one else can do healing but the person ordained.  That's very much there, you know?

There was a period of time, maybe in the nineties, that a group of bishops in the Catholic church came out very strongly against Reiki. After I left the hospital as a chaplain at St. Peter's they, they said the Bishop said it would be forbidden for anyone to do Reiki at the hospital. But how can they tell whatever you're doing in the hospital?

DIR: That's true, especially when you're in your meditation state.
BS: That there's nothing that they we’re doing [they can see]. But it went to that extent. I never let it interfere with my work in the hospital.  I think it's a matter of authority. But Jesus sent out his disciples to heal people in the village. He didn't grasp this as something that was only his. It was very spiritual thing. And the disciples went out into the villages and healed the people. So, it did come up for me, but I didn't allow it to interfere with anything I taught or anything I did personally. I think that the brothers never questioned anything, which was very helpful for me. They allowed me to do the things that I felt that I needed to do. They were supportive then in that way, so that was helpful

DIR: That was great. Thank you for sharing that. I always refer people who ask me about this to the Reiki principles of precepts, and I'm like, this is the embodiment of Reiki practice: Do not anger, do not worry. That is not evil. Thank you so much Bill for sharing you story. Is there anything you would like to add?
BS: Towards the end of my hospice work, I began to become more aware of Kathleen Prasad’s work. And during these last few years I've been becoming more involved in the shelters. She taught me so much. She and she has created the Let Animals Lead technique, where you just are there, and the animals come and take what they want instead of chasing after them. [Laugh].

DIR: She's wonderful. I think we should take the same approach to human treatments.
BS: Absolutely. That's why when you talk about distance healing, that's all you're doing, you're just holding that space for people. She was a great influence on me as well, and I really enjoy working with her.

DIR: And I love that you keep on training and keep on deepening your practice all the time. I find that so beautiful and inspiring as well.
BS: Well, thanks. Yeah. I have to do that. [Laughs.]

DIR: And you still teach, right?
BS: I was 40 years on my own in New Jersey and I'm 88 years old now. And so the community asked me to come back closer. So, I'm in one of our communities in New Rochelle, but I kept my contacts and I have zoom and I teach my Tai Chi classes on it. I'm teaching my Reiki classes on zoom. I'm doing a Reiki class this Saturday, and I do my healing circle once a month on zoom. So that's great. I keep in touch with a lot of people in New Jersey. I'm not pushing for anything here in New Rochelle. I just say whatever the universe sends me I'm here, but I don't go out and knock on doors anymore. [Laughs].

DIR: No it's, but I'll be sharing your website and all your details so people can reach out to you, especially if they're in new Rochelle—they're lucky people to be around you!
BS: Thank you very much.

DIR: Thank you so, so much for your time. And I'm looking forward to the Lancaster retreat in 2022. We're kidnapping you. I'm driving you down there. It's one year away but start packing. Okay?
BS: [Laughs].

Drawing inspired by Bill Stevens’s story.

DIVE INTO REIKI: I'm super excited to introduce my guest: Pamela Miles. Pamela is an internationally renowned Reiki master and the pioneer introducing Reiki practice to conventional medicine. She's collaborated with academic medical centers such as Harvard and Yale. She has been featured on The Dr. Oz Show, NBC, CBS, CNN, FOX, The Atlantic, US News & World Report, New York Magazine, Allure, and Self. Pamela is also the author of the award-winning REIKI: A Comprehensive Guide.

I went to Pamela's Reiki Clinic at the JCC in New York, and it really helped me find my footing when I first learned Western Reiki and was a bit lost.

PAMELA MILES: I always enjoyed having you [at the clinic]. I just want to clarify the term Western Reiki because I practice Western Reiki… it's not all "woo." I mean, my practice is not new-age at all. All of my Reiki masters were either trained by Hawayo Takata, or their Reiki masters were trained by Hawayo Takada. So, I learned the practice as Takata taught before Americans started, you know, making changes to it, which were mostly ad-ons—although they tried to make something simpler like you don't have to practice, which to me was the most fun part of it was actually practicing. 

DIR: I love that clarification: all Reiki is not the same. I love to hear your origin story. You're pretty unique compared to many beginner Reiki practitioners: you actually had a spiritual practice for years before you discovered Reiki. 
PM: That's so sweet for you to say I'm unique instead of odd. I like that spin on it, Nathalie. So yeah, by the time I came to Reiki practice in 1986, I already had been a student of meditation and yoga for almost 25 years. And I was a meditation teacher. I've lived in India in a monastery for a couple of years, doing really intensive spiritual practices, very serious practice. I was also a professional healer. I worked with people one-on-one doing what might now be called mind, body medicine, but back there was just odd. So unique is the word I'm going to stick with here. And the advantage that gave me was that I already had a daily spiritual practice. I understood that it's not enough to learn a practice; you learn a practice so that you can practice. And that the training that teaches you the practice, the teacher that teaches you the practice, you know, that's so special and you have at least regard if not reverence for that connection. But ultimately, if you don't practice, you're just tossing it out the window. To use marketing language, the practice is how you get that return on your investment. That's how you get your money's worth from your training. 

It always seemed odd to me that people finish one class, and they want to right away go to another class and get another certificate or whatever they get and go to another class. For me, I just couldn't wait to practice. I remember when I first learned to practice like I just couldn't wait till I had some time alone. [I did] my daily self-practice, my full protocol practice, first thing in the morning before I was out of bed. But then, during the day, I also wanted to practice. 

[…]

Compared to the effort involved in the other spiritual practices I had, this was very accessible. It was kind of fast and easy and fast and easy really aren't usually values of mine. But at the time that I experienced Reiki practice from a friend who had just taken the first-degree class, I had a five-year-old, and I was in early in my second pregnancy. So, I like to have spiritual practice every day. I just don't go a day without it. It's easier for me to fast or lose sleep. But I also remembered what it was like, when you give birth and in those early days, weeks, months, depending upon your baby. So, I was wondering how I was going to manage this. And then, I had an experience of Reiki from my friend. I quickly started to have the same inner experience and sensations that were very familiar to me because of all of my experience with spiritual practice, both at home and on retreat and such. Nothing that I experienced during my Reiki treatment was new to me other than the practice itself. This was a new way of becoming deeply indrawn and becoming more aware of my subtle being, my timelessness, and like that.

That gave me a very different perspective on the practice from the beginning. I could see this as a spiritual practice. Of course, we've come to know that. But it wasn't presented to me in that way or understood in the US in quite that way, with that language. From what I know, I think that Hawayo Takata did have that understanding. But she didn't put that language to it. And I'm sure she had very good reasons. You know, we all live in different times; we have to be ourselves of our time and carry the integrity of the practice. At least that's been a value for me. 

Pamela Miles.

DIR: No, absolutely. And as you said, we cannot really understand what it was to be her at that time. And she actually brought it here and spread it. But I think when you said, like, now we're coming to see it's a spiritual practice is still very new for many people watching this podcast. For most, it's still understood very much as an energy healing modality. But it goes a lot deeper. At the end of the meditation, you said something beautiful: bring it into your body and extend it into your life. This is so much more than just getting a session or doing your practice. It is about using it to transform your life. Can you talk a bit about the importance of the body in Reiki practice? 
PM: Well, the body is important because if we didn't have a body, we couldn't practice [she laughs].  

DIR: Yes, because sometimes we go into Lalaland with angels.
PM: People can practice in whatever way is meaningful to them, but the idea is not to disregard our bodies. The purpose of all spiritual practice is to be present and being present means being joyfully in our body. Because if we're not joyfully in our body, if we have discomfort with the body that we have, then we're not present. There's a part of us that's tied up with that, and that's worrying inside of us.

There's confusion or a lack of investigation into what spirituality is and what spiritual practice is in this culture. Many people have never thought of the difference between religion and spirituality. Or metaphysics and spirituality. We see that even more around Reiki practice, where people share their Reiki metaphysics. But if we ask people to see the world as we see it to practice Reiki, I think we're cutting out a lot of people who would otherwise really be interested in the experience and the benefits that Reiki practice brings. And the advantages it brings being uniquely accessible. I mean, it's just the easiest spiritual practice that I've come across. And I've been engaged in spiritual practices since I was a kid. There was a point at which I just said more than 50 years because that's enough.

Spiritual practice is to be present. To be able to live from our hearts. To keep our minds in good health too. I mean, a good intellect is important to discern and be a critical thinker. If you're engaged in anything around spirituality and you're not a critical thinker, you're going to fall for a lot of silly stuff. And you're going to be disappointed, especially if you don't have a daily practice because there are so many disappointments in life, right? I mean, this is something we're experiencing very acutely now with the pandemic and how long it's going on because people didn't think it would go on so long. They weren't quite seeing that this is a game-changer. This isn't a blip. And daily spiritual practice means that we step into our changes on a daily basis. So, we keep ourselves spiritually poised, settled in our bodies. And when something comes at us, we've got the resilience; we can roll with it. We can be creative. We don't forget who we are. We don't forget our timelessness. We don't forget our practice because our practice is the source of our resilience. 

DIR: I really admire people going through this without a spiritual practice. Before the pandemic was officially declared, you started a global practice group. Can you talk a bit about that? 
PM: Yeah. I had just come back. I had a few months with a lot of travel. I was in Europe, and then I was in Mexico, leading the Heart of Practice retreat. And then I was in Curaçao, and I was in Atlanta teaching, and I came back to New York, like March 1st, I think. I could see what was happening, you know? And I knew that people were going to be very frightened, and they were going to be isolated. I could see that we were going to wind up in some kind of a lockdown. Being frightened and being isolated is a devastating combination for your immune system. Either one of them compromises your immune function. And then those together can easily lead to depression, which further lessens people's immunity.

So, I was looking to see how I can support people in their self-practice and give them a sense of community. And since I'm kind of the queen of self-practice…

DIR: You were actually the first person who mentioned self-practice to me is like. I was like, "Am I supposed to have a self-practice? I didn't even know about that! 
PM: Well, I hear that from many, many people. That they've been through a class and either they were told to practice on themselves for 21 days, or it just never was even discussed. Whereas in my training, that's the core. You do a lot of self-practice. So, March 10th, I think, was the first one, the day before the world health organization declared the global pandemic. That was Tuesday at four, and then I added Saturday at 9:00 AM.  

Within, I don't know, six months or something, twenty-five thousand people had registered. And of course, not everybody registered and came back, but still, it was something that clearly was speaking to people. And the important idea for me was mixing care of self with community because everybody else wants to take care of other people, you know? And that's just more of maybe the thing that we need to change in this time. To change is our proclivity for looking outwards, like outwards for the Reiki energy as if it's something separate from us that we have to somehow trick into coming to us.

People say things like, I don't have my Reiki anymore. Well, do you practice? No. [Laughs] If we think of it asReiki practice instead of Reiki energy, it solves a lot of those problems. And also, we always know what's available to us, that accessibility and availability. It's so heartwarming because I get many, many emails from people who say, I've now been practicing every day for a month, for six months, for three weeks for—whatever is a landmark for them, something they never thought they could do. And they notice the difference. So the idea of healing the planet by healing ourselves and making that connection with the quote that we hear so often from Mahatma Gandhi, "be the change you want to see." Not fixing. And to get back to the idea of energy healing and practice: your energy healing is more along with the conventional medical fixing. Whereas spiritual practice reminds us of our intrinsic wholeness and wellness and lets all the disparate parts of ourselves come to rest in our spiritual self. Where we feel our core, and we remember who we are. And then mind, body, spirit, emotions, intellect, you know what, however, you want to name these different parts of ourselves that may be gremlins, they are all like, "Oh yeah!" They feel safe. And everybody behaves better when they feel safe. 

DIR: For me, one of the most significant gifts Reiki practice gave me was acceptance and compassion towards myself. Then by changing myself, I'm a lot kinder to my family and friends. So, as you said, the change starts inside, but it extends to affect people's lives. However, we tend to want to place our hands on other people and change them, so we like them more!
PM: And I think a lot of people feel that way. And, certainly, I've had my moments too. But compassion isn't for anyone. Compassion is a state; it's an attainment. And when we're willing to sit with ourselves and practice with ourselves, and we drop into our hearts, we experience the compassionate love that is our true nature. We feel it in ourselves because that's who we are first, but the way we are with other people is just a reflection of how we are with ourselves. Have you ever noticed that person who really pisses you off? If you're lucky, you'll catch yourself doing the thing that that person does that annoys you so much.

It's always just a reflection of how we feel about ourselves. So, as we feel unconditional self-love, even for a moment, it's a crack in the confusion. Then we just keep coming back to it, and we build a habit. This is another part of consistent daily self-practice that we're building a habit. We're building neural pathways. It's not just a good idea. You know, we're actually making it easier for us to take refuge in our center rather than refuge in our drama, which only creates more suffering. Life isn't always going to be easy. It certainly doesn't get easier when we start practicing, but we are more equipped. We're better equipped to be with the challenge because we feel safer. Feeling safe is a spiritual issue and spiritual attainment. Practice is the only way we can earn that experience and own it.

Otherwise, it's kind of like being on a diet where we're just having to say no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And we're not even sure that this is really going to work for us. But when we practice, especially practice self-Reiki, we experience pretty quickly that something good is happening. Our systems start to settle, and it happens on a discernible level in our nervous system. Wow. That's a big deal and a big difference. 

DIR: I love that you have a science and medical background. I love to now know that a part of my brain is actually changing.

I will use this to segue because you were vital in bringing Reiki to mainstream healthcare. You did fantastic work, and part of it is that you have a very down-to-earth approach and know the science behind it. How did you just wake up one day and say, "Hey, I need to bring this to healthcare?"
PM: I never said that! [Laughs]. [If I had], no one would have listened because I don't have a medical background. I mean, I did original research as an undergraduate. I have a couple of undergraduate degrees, so I've always had an interest. And my mother is a nurse, my sister, my grandmother, you know, so medicine has always been in my background. But I think that what gave me a unique qualification and, and I kind of started medical Reiki, was this marriage of spiritual practice and scientific intellect. And a desire to serve. I was invited to create the first hospital program because I was doing community service at gay men's health crisis here in New York City, offering Reiki training. At that point, it was still all guys with HIV aids. This was before the protest inhibitors and the drugs that have been developed that have really helped people be able to live with HIV Aids.

I mean, then it was really a death sentence, and everybody knew it. So, I started teaching people to practice on themselves and the doctors in infectious disease—that's what the Aids specialists were called—noticed that whenever they had a patient who was doing better than expected… invariably they talked about Reiki practice, and usually they were students of mine. So, the department head at what was then Beth Israel Medical Center, which is now, I think Mount Sinai Beth Israel, was a very forward-thinking interested in integrative medicine and understood that even if we couldn't cure a disease, we could at least still help people. That's why I was asked to come in and present. It was my first medical presentation. My knees were knocking because I knew it would be easy to lose this opportunity. I knew it would be easy to step in the wrong direction, but I just kept my mouth closed. And when I was asked a question, I didn't try to pontificate; I answered the question briefly because I know doctors are very busy. I always tried to answer the question in a way that would make sense to them without compromising the reality of what I was offering. I've always spoken of Reiki as a spiritual practice because, by then, I was a Reiki master. So everything else came out of that. 

In fact, there were a lot of people in conventional medicine who were very interested in what else could be done. At first, it surprised me, but then when I thought about it, well, yeah, these people see so much suffering that they can't help, even now that they can do more in terms of the fixing part. It's almost as if suffering itself is not a medical issue. Again, like safety, it's a spiritual issue. Doctors may help you with your pain, but suffering is a spiritual concern. 

DIR: I love how you put it because you also give Reiki a role that feels very safe and useful in the healthcare environment. Sometimes we communicate Reiki in a way that could feel dangerous to doctors. 
PM: Yeah. I mean, that's such an important point that you're bringing up, Nathalie. That is the communication piece. I've been a writer since I was a kid. So, I've always been thinking about communicating not just what do I want to say, but how can I say it? Not just writing as self-expression, but writing to communicate. And that made a big difference in being able to bridge cultures. And when it came to medical Reiki, the practice itself is the same that I practice everywhere, but the culture is different. I was bridging spiritual practice culture with medical science culture and also bridging lay culture with licensed professional culture. There were lots of places where we could have made a wrong turn, you know? And I was on a pretty steep learning curve. I just kept my mouth shut, and I listened. And then I had my partner there, the staff person at the end of the day, he would always make time for me, and I'd go in, and I'd say, "What does this mean? What is that?" I find it makes a big difference if there's somebody in the hospital or the institution who has at least some experience of Reiki practice because they appreciate the value. 

DIR: You have mentioned some essential things: first of all, to experience the practice. Second, listening, understanding them, and then communicating clearly in your case. Those are great tips for people to follow. 
PM: There's a difference between self-expression and communication. If we want to communicate better, we have to be better listeners. I find this true in my personal relationships, with my one-on-one clients for comprehensive healing sessions, and with students. They'll tell you what they want to know if you listen. I always keep in mind those wonderful words from Steve jobs: it's not the customer's job to know what they want. I can't wait for them to use my language or my concepts. I have to hear their language and recognize what they're saying behind what they're saying. 

So, if they ask what Reiki is, mostly they don't give a damn about what Reiki is. Most people just aren't that conceptually curious; what they're asking is, "Can this help me?" Or "Can this help somebody I love?" They've got some suffering that they're not able to address. And if we, as the Reiki practitioners and especially Reiki professionals, can be quiet enough and safe enough, they'll spill the beans. They'll tell us what they want to know. Then we can say to them what they've been asking us, even though they weren't using the words we would have used. 

DIR: It's all about listening and holding the space, and it's not trying to go, fix it or impose what we think is needed. You have achieved a lot of bringing Reiki into mainstream healthcare. However, right now, we are facing a lot of regulatory challenges. You are part of the group actively fighting these regulations. Can you explain what's going on?
PM: It's a very complex situation. Something that I feel very strongly about is that spiritual practices should not be legislated. It doesn't make sense. Is the government going to require a license to meditate or to pray? Reiki is a spiritual practice. If you even think about the logistics, how would they do that? I mean, that's a whole other thing. But the fact is that there are states that are looking to regulate, and it's never just Reiki practice. In Massachusetts, which is the current battleground, it seems to be all subtle practices, all noninvasive practices that have been recognized as being safe. 

Noninvasive means safe. And that's why there's no licensing for them. Because licensing, ostensibly, is to protect the public. You don't want a surgeon who hasn't gone through medical school with a specialty at the end, right? Because if a surgeon makes a mistake, there are horrible consequences. But as Reiki professionals, certainly, we can hurt people, but it's through our mishandling of another human being. It's not through the practice itself. And that's human nature, and that's not something that can be really controlled through regulation. 

The Massachusetts legislature has bills introduced, which, if passed, would mean immediately that professionals [from all these practices] would become illegal because they would [require] licensing. There's not even a six-month transition period. If it's passed, you know, as it's written. That's the acute crisis, and we need to address that. There's a petition, and I hope everybody will sign that petition and share it. Nag your friends to sign it as well and share it!

But then bigger than that is how can we keep our practice available [and] accessible to the public? We all have different Reiki practices. I think we all want the way we practice to be available to our grandchildren and our great-grandchildren. If the government—and it would be at the state level because the states regulate healthcare practices—takes control of licensing these practices, that means that there will be a small board. And somebody on that board, who probably is a friend of somebody in the legislature, knows something about Reiki practice. That person would be responsible for deciding what the licensing would involve, what we're allowed to teach, what's our curriculum, how we are supposed to practice. Does it have to be off the body? Does it have to be on the body? Do we have the freedom to choose according to what we think is best and best for our clients? 

The solution that I am working to further is, first of all, Reiki practitioners [need] to get savvier about communicating. Because, as you mentioned so astutely before, the way a lot of Reiki practitioners speak about Reiki is very unguarded. For people who aren't of that mindset, it sounds scary. It sounds imbalanced. It sounds like something is taking them over. It's confusing at best. So, for Reiki practitioners to be more savvy in their communication, because a lot of the problems that we're experiencing date back to the way that we've communicated, you know, just kind of reckless and thoughtless. And then reaching out to our state elected officials: calling their offices, making an appointment, [although] you probably won't get to speak to the actual official. Does it matter? You can speak to their gatekeeper. This is their job. And to be able to speak very succinctly, you know, "My Reiki practice is important to me." "I don't know how I could have gotten through my cancer treatment without my Reiki practice. The doctors certainly addressed cancer, but that's what helped me heal in a very profound way." End of story.

People want to make it big. No! Big makes doctors and legislators who are conservative [nervous.] No matter whether they're Republican or Democrat, they're conservative by nature, right? So, when people speak big, in an exaggerated way, it makes them nervous. It discredits us. We want to be very sober and simple. Your little Reiki story. How it helped you get your child to sleep at night. That's huge. But they need to hear from a lot of us, and they need to hear about Reiki practice in a way that's not scary and off-putting. Not going in there and saying, "Well, let me give you some Reiki." No, no, no! Please, don't do that!

The only reason we ever talk about Reiki practice in a situation like that is to shorten the distance between where that person is now and when they're going to have their first Reiki experience. Because once they have an experience, the conversation changes. But let's be realistic, our elected officials will probably not have a Reiki experience. We need to get their attention first of all and then equip them with some simple language and stories so that they see, "Oh yeah, this is important to the people who have voted for me and will vote for me again." 

DIR: And it's also safe. I think those stories you mentioned actually feed the clear distinction between alleviating pain and suffering, the latter of which should not be regulated. 
PM: Yes. There is another option; it's called Safe Harbor law. And it's something that has been conceptualized and actually passed in Minnesota. I think it was in 2005. That means we can practice these noninvasive practices as we see fit within reasonable parameters. Not interfering with any existing licensing but specifying noninvasive practices as not needing to be regulated. There's a woman, Diane Miller, and she has a new book called Health Freedom: The Greatest Freedom of All. And she has an organization helping people in different states to do this. 

DIR: I really appreciate you giving us the tools to help fight for our freedom to practice. I will post the links so people can reach out to their representatives. 
PM: Yeah. And you want to know before you make the phone call. You never know; you could get right through to somebody. It could be a slow afternoon. So, you want to know what you're going to say and rehearse it with friends. Reiki practitioners who know each other can get together and coach each other. It will help make us better Reiki practitioners because we'll be better able to represent what we do to people who aren't like us in some ways but are like us in other ways. [People] who—as his holiness says—want to be happy and want to avoid suffering. It's very simple the human condition.

DIR:  And that is the essence of the Reiki precepts at the end. Sometimes we get very lost when it comes to explaining Reiki practice. But, in the end, it's letting go of anger and worry, becoming more grateful, and finding that space of compassion. It's that simple. So simple that it's very complicated to get there. 
PM: You know, it's true. I tell my first-degree students that the hardest part about learning to practice Reiki is how simple and easy it is. Because all your life you've worked hard to get anything. Believed you should have worked harder for the thing that got away. In Reiki practice, the skill and the effort are really of self-restraint. Just place my hands [places hands on her body]. Now I'm practicing Reiki, and [lift her hands from her body] now I'm not. Hands-on, I'm practicing Reiki. Hands-off, I'm not. If it's that simple in the foundation, you won't get lost in your practice.

DIR:  Then you can actually extend that to your life. Like you lost the subway, you just lost the subway. Don't add, and don't complicate it. Yet Reiki is deceptively simple because you can actually go very deep, just by placing your hands repeatedly day after day. 
PM: I think the only way we can go deep is through repetition. Sometimes clients will come, and they'll say, "I'm with this old issue again." They're so disappointed in themselves that they haven't solved something. I try to help them appreciate it and be grateful that's it's an old issue because if you kept having new issues, you'd be overwhelmed. We have these old habits, and we keep revisiting them with new understanding and greater compassion. Things melt a little bit, and then we're doing better. Then something happens that takes us by surprise or frightens us, and we fall back into these very old habits a little bit. We usually don't fall so deeply. But what if we fell into new bad habits? How would we ever get ourselves out from under the suffering? If we always had to find a new plan, right? 

DIR: Oh, wow! I never looked at it that way. 
PM: It's so human. I mean, people are putting themselves down because they still have these old issues instead of like, "Thank God I still have this." For me, the simplicity of the protocol that I use for my practice, which is just an eight-placement protocol, creates a container for each practice that I can just drop into. I can practice with absorption and abandon. Not focusing, not concentrating, that's working too hard. I placed my hands, and something in me says, "Okay, now we're going home."

DIR: Yeah. I know many people go with intuition, and I'm like, "Learn your protocol because then you can always fall back on it and practice free of anger and worry. 
PM: People who say they practice intuitively, in my experience, there's nothing intuitive about it. They're thinking. They're engaged in a lot of stuff. They feel something and think they have to move their hands there. Just because you feel something doesn't mean it needs any more attention. Wherever we place our hands, it's not just that part of the body that responds. The initial response on a physical level certainly seems to be through some combination of the nervous system, the endocrine system, and likely the endocannabinoid system. These are the three most subtle systems in the body, and they're always playing with each other. So once that is set in motion, that's everywhere in your body. Where is your nervous system not? I place my hands on my chest; it's not just the nerves under my hand that are responding. It's my whole nervous system. This downregulation from the stress response, the sympathetic response to the parasympathetic digest, and heal response, and that involves everything. 

So you're going to feel things throughout your body as your body downregulates itself. We don't have to make that happen. We give our systems the invitation or the necessary information and then let it respond in the way that is meaningful, appropriate, and doable at that moment. And that's something we can't possibly know or even intuit, but our bodies know. We know how to heal. So, I think a big piece of Reiki practice, and certainly Reiki self-practice, is getting our minds out of the way. What we think we know. Being a little humbler with what we think we know.

DIR: Thank you, Pamela, so much for this interview. I learned a lot, and I'm sure everybody reading this will do, too. 

Drawing inspired by the interview with Pamela Miles.

DIVE INTO REIKI: Today I have a lovely guest: Yolanda Williams. Based in California, Yolanda is an Intuitive, Self-Mastery Coach and Certified Medical Reiki Master (CMRM); teaching Reiki, Intuitive Development, Elemental Balancing, and Chakra Mirroring. She trained with internationally recognized Reiki masters in the lineages of Usui Reiki Ryoho and Jikiden Reiki. Yolanda also trained with shamans and other healers of various modalities, increasing her intuitive abilities and understanding of Universal Oneness.
She is the host of the top-rated Reiki Radio podcast, founder of The Alchemy Circle, and creator of The Seekers Circle, which has become an international community of energy workers.
She is currently authoring an oracle deck to highlight how you can deepen your understanding of what it means to be an authentic expression of your true nature. I am super excited about that! So, without further ado, let's welcome Yolanda.
YOLANDA WILLIAMS: Thank you so much, Nathalie. I'm so excited to be here.

DIR: I like to start all of these interviews with the same question: How did you come in contact with the Reiki system? When was the first time this practice appeared in your life?
YW: The first time it appeared in my life, interestingly, I had gone through a layoff. Well, I had the option of keeping my job and relocating to another state, which I didn't want to do. And so, I took my package and spent some time finding myself. I had a whole "Eat, Pray, Love" experience. I went to Europe by myself and was just trying to figure out what I wanted to do next in life. And I knew that I didn't want to go back into finance. And so, I got to this space where I was having anxiety. I was freaking out. I was like, "I don't know what I want to do with my life, and I have bills to pay." And I literally found myself one day like I was imploding because I was just so afraid of not knowing what to do. I was crying in the fetal position on my bedroom floor, which was very unlike me. And I was just saying like, "Please like, God, just give me any direction. Give me a sign. Just tell me what to do. Just help me." This really eerie calm came over me, I stopped crying, and the first thought in my head was to call this woman who had done my astrology chart maybe ten years prior. And when I went to her initially, she was so accurate that it scared me, which is why I never called her in that ten-year window. I was like, "How does this lady know these things about me and my life?" But anyway, since she was the first person or thought that came to mind, I booked a session with her to have my chart done again.
When I went, she told me several things about what was going on in my life. But most interestingly, she said, "Have you ever heard of Reiki? You should definitely go get a Reiki session and learn how to meditate. Because both of those are going to help you with the stress that you're experiencing. And then you can have clarity and decide how you want to move forward." So, I looked up Reiki because Google is my friend. I was like, "This is really interesting!" It just sounded so strange that I thought I didn't really want to have a session as much as I wanted to learn, like what is this. I signed up for a [Reiki 1] class. I signed up for meditation class simultaneously, and then that was it. The door was open, and I started this deep dive into exploring myself.

Yolanda Williams.

DIR: When we talked on another occasion about self-exploration, you highlighted that healing is not that pleasant process we all imagine. Can you elaborate on that?
YW: Yes. I think partially I was kind of lucky at the beginning that I was blind to the whole idea of spirituality. I hadn't read any of the books, or I wasn't familiar with the practices of the teachers. I genuinely went in this blindly. When I started meditation and Reiki, I practiced both diligently because I was so curious. There was this part of me that was very excited at the beginning: "Whoa, I'm experiencing myself differently. I'm starting to perceive different things, you know, just life in a different way." So, I went all the way in, being very, very diligent and just practicing. 
Then I started researching and finding other teachings and spiritual communities. It sounded like the most amazing thing, like you [were] going to be so spiritual and like rainbows and butterflies and feel so great. I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. And again, initially, that's what I was experiencing. I was just fascinated by what I was starting to feel and sense and starting to question what we are in a different way? But then what happened was that I started to really see myself in ways that I guess I repressed or just things I had put on the back burner. Different emotions started coming up. I started having different reflections about my life experience and how things affected me, and what I was behaving from today based on the past. It was just like, "Wait, what is happening? This isn't sunshine and rainbows." It was really hard, like standing in front of a gigantic mirror that I wasn't expecting to appear. But fortunately, for whatever reason, there was a part of me that knew this was part of my healing.
It was like I instinctively knew: don't run away from this. Don't shut down. The stuff is coming up for a reason. So, keep examining what's going on. And then, how does this feel in your body? How does this feel with your energy, and where is the balancing coming in when you sit for practice? And I just want to highlight that it wasn't like a short process, like one week. This was years of stuff coming up, and the truth is it still does. 
I think as a lot of the resistance starts to dissipate, and you start to really see the beauty and the gift of seeing yourself, it's not so hard. It can be uncomfortable, but there's a lot of gratitude around what's coming up. And the understanding that comes from that. But definitely, there were a few years where I felt like, "Is the universe punching me in the face? Like what is happening? I'm doing all the things. I'm practicing Reiki. I'm meditating. Where's the sunshine and rainbows?" Eventually, I came to appreciate [the process]; I understood that it was part of my healing.

DIR: I love a couple of things you mentioned: first of all, being open to experiencing it, whatever length of time it takes. But also the need for balance. Because I think, sometimes we go into the shadow work, and that takes over the light. We need to accept our darkness but temper it with gratitude and compassion, right?
YW: Yeah, that was the thing. The different tools that I had learned through Reiki and meditation really got me through those processes. Because then I started to recognize, "Okay, how do I feel embodied? Oh yeah. I can sit in, use my breath to just calm and come back into a space of clarity. I can look at the Reiki Gokai (precepts) and really examine like, wait, I really am angry right now. I really am worried right now. Why? What's coming up around this, and what are the perspectives that I'm holding? Can I see the beauty in this discomfort and what's happening? So, definitely, the practices and the techniques that are infused in Reiki got me through it. It gave me even more of a reverence for the practice itself. Man, if I would have learned this as a teenager! But you know, it comes when it comes.

DIR: We all have that feeling! I fantasize about teaching how to work with the Reiki precepts to every pre-teen in the world, so they can face puberty and life with some tools. 
What I love about you is that you're relentless in your search for tools and knowledge, but you don't get attached to the tools themselves. You have explored many modalities but have not lost your North. I know that you studied Akashic Records Reading. A lot of people ask me about them and how they can be used with Reiki. Can you tell us your perspective on combining or studying different modalities?  
YW: I always include meditation [in my practice] because I love it so much. And although Reiki is very meditative, I had to learn meditation as a separate thing to really go deeper into it. Because it wasn't a big part of the first classes that I took. I was starting to experience myself differently, and I started to feel sensations differently —whether in meditation or sometimes in Reiki sessions. I would see or feel like colors and things. And I was like, "What is this?" It was very distracting to me because I wasn't being present. I was more curious of, like, what is all this stuff? I realized just to satisfy my mind; I wanted to understand why I was having these experiences.
I took an intuitive development class and studied to have more understanding about how we translate and perceive energy or how we even translate and perceive the unseen. I went through a period of, okay, I am seeing and sensing these different things intuitively, but it was never for me about predictive work. Do you know what I mean? It was more this exploration of my design, like how can I even see or feel these things that aren't tangible, that aren't here in the material realm? I was more fascinated about what we have the ability to perceive. I went deep into that study. I also recognized that once I understood my intuitive nature more, it dissipated some fear around what I may feel or sense because a lot of people do get this heightened sensitivity after practicing anything—I mean, it could just be meditation, Reiki, whatever. 
From there, it was like just going down a rabbit hole. I was literally like Alice in Wonderland, like, "Oh, there's more, give me more, what else is out there?" I met this amazing woman who was an Akashic Records teacher, and I studied with her. It was just another layer of learning, how we access different states of consciousness. I'm a very curious person. I was also curious about why people would want to access a different state of consciousness. But I didn't attach to it the way that people use all these different practices, even Reiki for that matter. All of this work was about discovering more about myself. It was like, "Oh, this is so cool." Being a human is actually kind of fascinating. It was changing me because I was having a deeper appreciation for life and for being and existing. That's what encouraged me to want to share it with other people.
Even when I share with other people—people that I teach or just people I converse with—I'm always very clear: you're not meant to mimic me. Here are the tools that have helped me. See how it opens you up to you. Notice what you start to recognize about yourself. And then, of course, what that may reveal to you about this true nature that we talk about and these aspects of us that are really beneath the surface, beyond "I am Nathalie." Beyond "I was born in a female body." There is just so more underneath that is that unifying quality in all of us. And I think these practices have helped me see that in a broader way. 

DIR:  I love the way you put it: it's is about self-exploration. It's not about getting answers like, should I go to the supermarket now or later? I think you made it very clear and very loving for everyone to understand. I really appreciate that answer. You also mentioned something I always struggled to put into words when we had a conversation, and you did it beautifully. I feel that, as practitioners, we often struggle with the issue of messages. When we work with others, we shouldn't confuse observation and awareness with acting as an antenna, always grasping to get messages. Can you elaborate a little bit more on that?
YW: Yeah. When that initially was happening for me, I did have that pressure on myself because, again, I wasn't even very clear at the beginning of what Reiki was. And so it was this self-imposed pressure of, "Okay, I'm seeing in sensing thing. Am I supposed to tell them? What does this mean? Am I going to translate correctly?" All of this blah, blah, blah, right? I absolutely went through that phase and that stage. But then I got to a place of like, "Hello, come back to observation, let go, be the empty vessel. But there was a lot in my own process that I had to work through. [Letting go] layers of my own ego, of wanting to be right, to do it right. To do a good job. Honestly, I think there is nothing wrong with it. I think there's beauty in that so many people decide to do this type of work and hold space for others. We just genuinely want to do a good job. Like we want to help you. We want to support you. But then again, we attach to these expectations that take us out of the practice itself. I think for a lot of practitioners, it's just part of the process of the undoing and the learning and the bumping against ourselves to see what we're even attached to and the pressures we're putting on ourselves. So, I went through that cycle, and I appreciate it because now I can relate when I meet other practitioners who may have a similar experience. I'm like, "Yeah, it was there. Howsoever you can let that go, let it fall away. You can observe. And it absolutely means nothing. You can just hold space, and that's all it is." 
But I think the greater gift and a lot of the things that I practice outside of just Reiki, and I have to say Reiki is in there as well, was that it all kind of helped me learn more to trust. To let go. To not be so attached. To pay more attention to my own self-observation: what I feel, what I sense, how I feel guided, without making everything something. 

DIR: I think it's so helpful to know this when you are a beginner. Many of us practice for a couple of years, get confused or stuck, and drop the practice. It is advantageous to hear the experience of people who have been practicing for 15 years, 20 years, to understand that, "Oh, this is a stage. I just need to keep a beginner's mind and remember that my practice will keep changing. That's what excites me about Reiki. The more I practice, the more it changes, so I never get bored. You can never get Reiki "right" because the practice changes all the time. 
YW: Absolutely. And that's why a big focus for me is like, here are the tools. To me, they're foundational; they're keys. But the beauty is just don't leave them on the surface and don't get so rigid about being right. I have to practice, right? I have to [be in that space of] observation as I sit with myself and apply these. And not just when I'm sitting, not just in a session, but how do I apply this out in my everyday life? How does the Gokai show up in my exchanges with my friends and my family? Or how does using my breath really help me [in my exchanges] with the world around me? Right. So, it really is to me about how I am being and how these tools are helping me to evolve.
I think that's what keeps me excited and connected to my practice because I know I have no idea how I'm evolving and changing. I know it's this never-ending process. I don't know what the end result will be, but I'm very thankful that I'm changing. I'm very thankful for the ways that I see it has contributed to my life and how it's helping me soften. It helps with my layers of stress and how I handle things and all of that across the board. 
I also think that's why it's important for practitioners to know that if your experience doesn't mirror someone else's, it doesn't mean that you're wrong. You're just going through it your way. And what comes up for us individually is going to look different. How we choose to work through what comes up for us is going to be different. But it's the beauty in that we have these similar practices that help to get us there. 

DIR: That is amazing. We are often pressured to have the same experience as everybody else. If everybody loves a movie and you don't like it, it's weird. With your answer, you are giving the freedom for everyone to experience the practice differently. We will all unfold and evolve differently. And that is the way it should be: we all have different mindsets. I think that is a precious gift. 
You're supporting people to do this through your Patreon and your circle. Can you talk a bit about that? About the importance of supporting practitioners after certification? 
YW: Yeah. Interestingly it started with the podcast. I started the podcast in 2013. At the time, I was like, "Hello, is anybody talking about this stuff?" There wasn't a lot of information available outside of the little pod of the class you took or your immediate community. I was experiencing a lot in terms of stuff coming up and being uncomfortable and questioning, "Am I doing this right?" I realized there had to be other people that we're experiencing this too. [So I thought] if I can just share what I'm going through, and if anyone else is going through it, maybe it will encourage them to stay in the process. And then, we can start having conversations about this and help each other by sharing what we're experiencing and being honest about it. Not think you have to say you have to be peaceful and kind every day. If you're mad, say you're mad, but let's then look at these practices and see how they work? How do they help us work through these different emotions and things coming up?
I just wanted to talk about it and have a community forum, but I didn't even know if anyone would listen to the podcast. I was like, just throw it out there. It did take a while before I started hearing from people who found it and were listening. I really appreciated that. But then I started to realize even more that, for a lot of us, after our initial training, then what? And we go home and practice, but some people didn't even have access to their teachers afterward. When I'm practicing, that's when the stuff is really starting to happen. That's where I need to talk to someone. And this is where my questions are. Because when I'm in class, I don't know what to ask. I'm just learning. But when I start implementing, man, I have questions! 
Over the years, that evolved. I had an opportunity to then start doing some online classes, not Reiki. I don't teach Reiki online, but I started having online classes to support practitioners. I love the back-and-forth exchanges, so I decided to start the Patreon group. I invited practitioners to come in to practice together. But to also share. Let's talk about it. What's coming up for you? What is your experience?
I really believe we learn from each other, but it also gives people this space where they feel comfortable. They feel seen and heard because a lot of people that practice, whatever they practice, they may not have people in their immediate life that understand, that they can talk to about these things. A lot of people are closeted about their practices because they don't want to seem weird or be judged. And so it's like, "Yeah, you have this community, this space. Let's play, let's practice and talk about it." And it developed into a lot of mentoring. But again, it's one of those things that I'm like, I don't know how long I'll be doing this. I don't know what it will evolve into, but I'm doing that for now.

DIR: What you said about being closeted, I think it happens to a lot of us. When I talk about Reiki with my family, they confuse me either for a Hare Krishna or a witch. There is a lot of distrust. So for me, finding a community was significant as well. 
It also happens that when you discover Reiki, you don't want to work anymore and just want to do Reiki. Because it's so beautiful. And then part of the process is to face the fact that we can't all be practitioners. But that doesn't mean we drop the practice. It means your life becomes your practice? My freelance work, my family relationships… they all become practice. Finding the community really supports you in your self-exploration journey.
Talking about exploration, you are working on a project that has me pretty excited: an Oracle deck. Can you tell us about it?

YW: I wanted to create an Oracle deck for a very long time. Back when I was doing my Alice in Wonderland thing, I came across Oracle cards. I was like, "Oh, what are these about? I learned how to read Oracle cards from a woman who had created her own deck. She was a phenomenal teacher. But again, I used the cards every day to go like, "What is coming up in my energy? What may I not be looking at in a particular way?" Just wanting a different perspective on myself. Like, "What is it I'm holding around this situation, and what might support me to understand differently?" So, I worked with cards in that way, and then over the years, I started helping people learn how to read cards.
Then at some point, I became interested in the Tarot. Anyone familiar with Tarot [knows] it's broken up into major Arcana and Minor Arcana. For a very long time was only interested in the Major Arcana, known as the Fool's Journey. As I connected with the cards, I realized, "Oh my God, this is showing the process that we go through." Our own process of coming into a deeper relationship with ourselves and what starts to come up for us. It mirrored a lot of what I experienced through the years of this work. I was fascinated that this story was being told from another lens. And I have to say, Nathalie, that's one of the things why I also liked to study and read about so many different practices and philosophies. Underneath it all, they all seem to point back to the very same thing, which is you, and how you are going through this practice of awakening to yourself and revealing more of that true nature.
I was fascinated with Major Arcana. I got to the minors later. I now have more decks than I will admit on your show, but I realized I wanted just one go-to deck very specific for people interested in self-work. Practitioners or people interested in self-exploration could use this one deck and the different elements that hold that mirror for us. Like, "What is it that I am holding? What is it that I'm not seeing? What is it that is helping me in this challenging situation?" So, I designed the deck itself. I worked with an artist. I had to translate to her the images in my mind. Part of the deck is inspired by the Major Arcana, but then the rest is it's just different stuff going on. It's a deck to support people in their self-work. Because Oracle cards and Tarot were two tools that helped me go deeper into looking at this life experience and how I'm navigating it, I was like, "Yeah, I definitely want to create something that is very intentionally to be used for people who want to do the same."

DIR: Throughout this interview, one thing that keeps coming up is that all these practices are just tools to mirror and discover your true self. Yes, it's great that it fixes back pain, for example, in the case of Reiki, or that it gives you some emotional release. Still, in the end, it's really about self-exploration. Once you see everything through that filter, there is no right or wrong way of doing it. 
However, when you become familiar with so many tools, how do you establish a consistent daily practice? Which ones do you choose?

YW: Yeah. I just want to highlight something that you just said because I think a lot of us—when we are seeking and trying to understand—we "right and wrong" ourselves a lot. There's beauty in people that like you just stick to the purity of whatever particular practices. I like to think that people who practice this way are lineage holders in a way. I think that's very important because that's where the traditions get passed down. We can continue to learn like that information. Those teachings, those foundations are never lost because certain people just want to stick very tightly to the tradition. There's so much beauty in that because if that weren't the case, we wouldn't be sitting here right now talking about Reiki. However, there are some people, [and it's] not right or wrong, that does feel like, "I want all the things." 
I hope people can understand and appreciate whatever they feel called to. Like there is no right or wrong in this. But no matter what class I was taking, no matter what I was learning, I always had just a foundational daily meditation period across the board. And I've made it a point to be very rigid with myself, honestly, about making sure I start my day with medication. If I'm lucky, I get to do it a few times throughout the day. But meditation really is my love. That is genuinely what I'm in love with. So that has always been the foundation of no matter what exploration I do. 
Then say, for example, I studied Akashic records and Oracles and this and that. I give my attention to these practices because I genuinely want to understand them, but the thing is, I don't attach to them. I don't feel like I have to implement everything. How could I possibly practice every single thing every day? 
So, for me, the focus really is what am I getting from this thing that I just learned? It always comes back to how this practice is in service to my goal of understanding myself. How is this practice in service of helping me to see or understand myself in a higher way? And then I take that in, take it in, I take it in. I don't feel like I have to do all the things as much as I appreciate the different perspectives that all of these things have given me. 
But then there's also this thing that comes [with training], say Akashic records, for example. In the class that I took, it was suggested that you practice it every single day for 30 days right after class. And so, I did that because it was part of the practice. What I realized is I was enjoying that. Then that became part of what I did every single day for months. I went into my Akashic records. What started happening again is that instead of just being a surface thing that I was doing, I started to recognize, "How is this changing the way that I see things? The way that I feel the flow of energy? And on and on and on."
It's more like it awakened something in me, but it wasn't that I have to attach and say now I have to keep doing this every day. And I don't do it at all. But because of the connection to the practice itself, you start to embody [its] essence. How do [you] allow this experience, this expression to live through [you]. In a lot of ways, the grip you have on [these tools] starts to fall away. And it's more about how [are they] adding to this expression and what I am starting to understand more about myself. 
So, if you are someone who likes to study many things, maybe don't do 10 classes at once. [If you] want to study this one thing, give your time and attention to that thing, practice it, implement it. Otherwise, what are you studying for? What's the point? 
Don't give yourself this pressure of right and wrong as much as, "How do you feel guided in this practice?" Some people I know study many things and continue to practice all those things, but that's what works for them. And it's a beautiful thing. It's just that that wasn't my personal guidance. I'm just more of a "how can you help crack me open type of girl," and then let's see what happens. 

DIR: That is excellent guidance. We don't need to practice all of them every day. We just need to go deep to get that gift meant for us. And then we can choose what we keep. These practices look very different on the outside, but they all point towards the same thing at the end. I think we learn from everything, not just from spiritual practices like Akashic records or Oracle, but also from working a day job or walking on the street.
YW: Yes. And I think that's the beauty of this community as well—[although] a lot of people have a lot of judgment around it. It's beautiful that you have so many different people practicing and people called to so many different things. You have this variation of tools and elements available to anyone and what you feel called to. For example, I know a lot of people who work with Reiki and crystals. I have a lot of crystals, and I love crystals, but they're not necessarily part of my sessions. But there are people who feel drawn to that. It fascinates me the way this work expresses through everyone uniquely, you know what I mean? Or some practitioners may like to incorporate a reading or do Akashic records. Then they'll implement energy work as part of the process. People have to allow things to express through them the way that they feel called. That's amazing to me. And I like variety. I know that everything is not for everyone, and we're all going to be drawn in and inspired by even different things. That has been why I appreciate learning different things, reading about different things. I love to interview people because I want to hear, "What is your practice, and what has it done for you?" When I interview people in their different practices, it's not because I practice or what I'm interested in. But I understand that there are other people listening that may be held to that. So, let's have a conversation and see what's inspiring all of us. 

DIR: It's beautiful because we're billions of people, and everybody will have a journey, right? There is no one way; there are 7 billion ways.
YW: Yes, exactly.

DIR: Your answers have been very enlightening. I love how articulate, precise, and kind they are. Changing gears a bit, however, I would like to ask you about a Reiki "oops" that gave you valuable insight into Reiki practice. 
YW: I can think of two off the top of my head. One, the biggest Reiki "oops" for me at the very beginning was trying so hard. I mean, I was trying hard. I was attached to the outcome, and this was more so in practicing with other people. And you know, that whole thing that a lot of practitioners go through, like, "Is this working? Is it right?" I was so focused [on that,] not trusting, allowing, and, you know, being an empty vessel. I was putting a lot of pressure on myself, and it was so distracting. And then there was this one day. I'll never forget. One of my friends wanted me to do a session. And I literally had the thought—because I was so frustrated with not knowing how it was working—"I don't even care." I literally went into the session with this feeling of "I couldn't care less," let me just lay my hands on them. I was so detached. It was the most amazing experience. It was just this flood of energy. And I just had this realization in the moment of "you got out of the way, you stopped trying." And that's the whole thing: stop trying, just sit, breathe. That was a huge lesson about just being an observer, just staying with my own breath. My focus in that particular session was more so on me. The cultivation of the life force that I was experiencing in my own being allowed me to be free in the flow of life force I was feeling, letting go of my attachments, surrendering. To let go of the yip yap [in my head] about rightness. To let go of the anger and frustration. That was huge for me. So while I do care when I show up for a session, I'm not attached to the outcome. 
Another thing is, I have encountered over the years not just working with different practitioners but in conversation with a lot of practitioners that a lot of people just want to get it quick. I don't know if they want to awaken quick or want a quick result. I'm not sure what the desire is, but they want something to happen quickly. Right. So many people will do things where they'll do, like Reiki 1, 2, and 3 within a day. And then, on the other side, they feel like drunk. It's almost like an energetic overload that happens when people ingest, ingest, ingest because "I want to do this fast."
That was also a big lesson: an observation of integration. Like, be easy. There's no rush; take it in. It's not just a surface-y thing. The truth of the matter is when you start connecting with yourself and when you start implementing these practices, it can't not change you. The energy that moves can't not have some type of impact on you. Instead of trying to overstimulate yourself or your system, [be] kind. It reminds me of enjoying the meal: you don't have to eat so fast, just enjoy the meal. You'll notice the flavors, the textures, you know what I mean? It's different than wolfing it all down, and then you're full. And you're like, "Oh, I feel sick. I don't know what happened." I think our practice in a lot of ways can be that way, but I have learned the beauty of being patient. Not just in what we ingest, but being patient with ourselves and recognizing how the work is helping us to evolve, shift, change, balance, bring stuff up, and work through the layers. Just take a breath and take your time.

DIR: I love those two words: patience and integration. It reminds me of a story recounted by Sharon Salzberg of when she went to study meditation in India. She was practicing Metta meditation for a month or so, focusing on herself. She was feeling that it wasn't really changing her life and was a bit frustrated. Then one day, she let something drop. And she heard her inner voice say, "You are a klutz, but I love you." It is such a human, beautiful perspective. It changed me because I had always wanted Reiki to solve everything in my life. Self-acceptance was not even on the map.
We expect the changes to be big and fast, but they actually show up in the small things. When we break a glass, and we don't spiral out into self-hatred. Or you call someone by the wrong name, apologize and let it go versus fretting for hours. These are the indications your practice is working. Practicing kindness towards ourselves and others. 
YW: With you saying that, Nathalie, it reminds me of [Frans Stiene, a teacher we both have in common.] One of the things I really appreciated about having him as a teacher is that he has such lightheartedness. There's such a playfulness to him in his classes. I think when we come into this, a lot of people think we have to be so serious. Like, this is serious. And while it's serious business doing your healing, playfulness can be a part of it and actually is quite helpful in the process of not being attached, being more forgiving, and being more compassionate. The laughter has to be present. 

DIR: Then the practice becomes so dry, right? And the reality is so opposite. Like right now, there are garbage trucks under my window, a concert, people screaming. Or posed like on Instagram, where everyone meditates looking into the horizon with perfect wavy hair flying in the wind. It's not perfect, yet it is. 
YW: Yeah! I think sometimes one of the maybe basic questions that we can ask ourselves along the way is, "How am I experiencing this?" Like on the other side, not while you're meditating itself. Just taking a breath and noticing like, "Am I using this essence of calmness and stillness? Am I able to apply this when something triggers me out in my life? When I recite and chant the Gokai, am I really feeling into those words? Do I really allow them to be like little mantras and remind me of my perspective as I'm interacting in the day?" 
I mean, again, it comes down to patience, slowing down, observing how the practices are actually impacting your life. It's not just information to take in to be able to regurgitate, to know all the spiritual jargon. No. [Observe,] how is this actually? Why did you study this in the first place? That's like one of the things I ask: why do you want this in the first place? And then how are you allowing this to support you in experiencing that?

DIR: I taught a woman recently, and she told me she could not feel the energy but felt the practice was working because she didn't scream at her kids so much. She was doing things she had not dared to do before. I loved this. 
But back to your Oracle Deck, do you have a timing for the launch? I'm already hitting that pre-buy button! 
YW:  Thankfully, I have a friend who is a graphic artist, and she has helped me a lot. So everything will be submitted for printing in September. And then it's supposed to just be a few months after that. So hopefully [it will be ready] in the fall, but definitely by the end of this year.

DIR: Awesome. That's going to be my Christmas present! Thank you so much for being on the podcast and sharing your beautiful wisdom. 
YW: Thank you so much. 

Yolanda’s drawing.