Rika Saruhashi is a Reiki master from the Gendai Reiki lineage. Of Japanese origin, she has lived for the last 30 years in Madrid, Spain. Besides teaching and offering sessions, Rika has been translating Hiroshi Doi's speeches and writings since 1999 and just published a beautiful Spanish translation of the 125 Emperor Meiji's poems selected by Mikao Usui, under her imprint Neko Editorial.

DIVE INTO REIKI: Rika, I am very grateful to have you on the podcast!
RIKA SARUHASHI: Thank you for the invitation; I am very excited.

DIR: As I do with every interview, I wanted to start with your first experience with Reiki practice.
RS: How did I discover Reiki? It's a very maybe typical story for Japanese citizens. We didn't know about the existence of Usui Reiki Ryoho. So, I discovered Reiki in Spain through my Spanish friends. Before that, I saw the words Reiki in some magazines, and I was like, "It sounds like a Japanese word, but it sounds a little bit strange. What can I understand from this? Is this some kind of Japanese sect?" And maybe that is the typical impression of a Japanese citizen who first hears the word Reiki for the first time. [Laughs]

Rika Saruhashi

I was very sick from kidney dysfunction. I wasn't leading a normal life anymore. My Spanish friends—two brothers—recommended me to do Reiki. Reiki always sounded very, very strange to me. The word Reiki. But something motivated me to take a plane and go to a city called Vigo, in the North of Spain, in Galicia. I took a Reiki course there. I just loved it!

The things that I heard about Reiki's history, about the life of Mikao Usui, all sounded a little bit strange for a Japanese person, but we just loved it. I had been treated by many alternative [and] complementary methods, and I was learning to heal myself. But never got to know something like Reiki, and it changed my life in two days.

I also started to feel a lot better. I could lead an almost normal life. I didn't understand what happened, but I knew something very important had happened. That was my beginning.

DIR: It is interesting to see how you started—through the physical side—given that your writings are more on the spiritual side. A lot of us go to Reiki because of stress release. What was the first lineage you were trained in?
RS: It's called Usui Tibetan Reiki. I didn't even know what lineage it was. It's a school of Reiki that is widely spread in Spain. It's an American system. At that time, it didn't matter what it was, because I felt such benefit myself, I didn't even question it. I just loved Reiki.

DIR: That's such a beautiful point of view. Sometimes we get hung up on lineages, styles, and names instead of the quality of the practice and its benefits. So, as a Japanese person, it felt strange to hear Mikao Usui's story in your Western training. How did you end up training with the Gendai lineage?
RS: I was very happy with Usui Tibetan Reiki. Some things were not very correct from the point of view of Japanese people. It didn't matter to me because there is something about this that it doesn't matter in what lineage you belong to, what kind of Reiki you practice; Reiki always touches you, and Reiki always works. I was very happy for three years.

But then my master gave me a book by Frank Arjava Petter. It was in English, but I can understand English perfectly. I was very surprised to discover that Reiki existed in Japan and exists today too.

So my master and friend who recommended me to do Reiki [and I] started to prepare for a trip to Japan in 1999. It was the reason I got to know Gendai Reiki. I was very happy with what I had, but as we found out there was Reiki in Japan and that maybe we could find out some interesting things. So, we prepared ourselves and went there in a few months.

DIR: When I heard about the history of Reiki at my Western training, I didn't even suspect that was something odd with it. It made complete sense with my cultural background. In your case, your roots made you wonder and want to explore.
RS: Yes, yes. Because there is something beyond human forces, it's cosmic energy, what we call in Japanese, Reiki.

Also, I got to Japan, and the first thing I participated in without knowing it would happen was a Reiki Congress of Reiki Oneness.

DIR: That is serendipity!
RS: So I always believe in Reiki as one, no matter what method you learn. Reiki does something very important to a person. But of course, when I went in 1999, I was the only Japanese person, and also I was accustomed to translation because that was my profession for many years. So I translated all the courses in this congress. Then I realized because my Spanish friends, of course, don't know Japanese. So [I felt] this must be my mission. I can understand this perfectly in Japanese. And I also have Japanese sensitivity because I am from Japan. If thought, I have to do something about it. And I am the kind of person who doesn't think at all when I start something; I just start.

So, the next year, the year 2000, I had a lot of economic difficulties because I left my job as a translator because I loved Reiki so much that I wanted to dedicate myself to Reiki. But even then, I had to go to Japan for a very important historical event called [URRI-Usui Reiki Ryoho International]. It doesn't exist anymore. URI was to connect people from many types of schools of Reiki via the Internet. It existed for years. URRI organized its first meeting in Kyoto in 2000. I had to go because I also wanted to learn more from [Hiroshi] Doi sensei [who led the Gendai school]. My teacher from the other school was there too. I jumped into all of this without thinking; it was my destiny. I found my place in this world.

DIR: Can you explain Gendai Reiki to people unfamiliar with this lineage?
RS: It is Usui Reiki Ryoho, Gendai style. Hiroshi Doi has a very big life and very profound knowledge of what is Usui Reiki Ryoho of Mikao Usui. And [Gendai is also] called an updated version of Usui Reiki Ryoho. It's adapted to the contemporary world and daily practice and is a very profound version too.

It is also a fusion of Western Reiki—because Hiroshi Doi started like me with Western Reiki. Like many Japanese masters, they started with Western Reiki taught by Western Reiki masters in Japan. So, Hiroshi Doi knew Western Reiki and got to know the Usui Reiki Gakkai, the association Mikao Usui created in 1922. This year is one hundred years. So Doi sensei belongs to Usui Reiki Gakkai and knows traditional Reiki. But he saw merits in both types of Reiki. He also updated some techniques that started from Mikao Usui.

DIR: And you are a Japanese who lived in the US and now Spain. So, in a way, Gendai's blend of Western and Eastern is a reflection of who you are. It's a perfect fit!
RS: Yes, it's like destiny. When I wanted in 1999, I started with four Japanese masters because two of them teach together as a pair, but Gendai Reiki Ho is what attracted me the most. That's why although I had economic difficulties, I had to go back to Japan in 2000.

DIR: One of the things you mentioned in our previous chat was the emphasis on meditations like Hatsurei Ho and the concept of gentle healing. Leaning toward a daily practice that gently brings true transformation and healing.
RS: It's a bit crazy this story. Because I am from Japan, and my parents are from Japan. I lived abroad for my father's job; he used to work for Japan airlines. And I was also, as a young person, very much against anything from Japanese culture. But now, after living abroad for a long time, I love my culture and my tradition.

To tell you the truth, it can be surprising for practitioners that Japan was very much contaminated by Western culture in the post-war. We also received a lot of influence from Western culture during the Meiji era. In Japan, Reiki is something quick. You take a four hours seminar or course sometimes, and a maximum of seven hours for each level. And then nothing.

Not many people want to deepen their practice or [be consistent] in their practice. That is where my origin said, "That is not right. I want this, and I want to grow as a person. I feel very comfortable doing Reiki, and each time I grow, I feel very comfortable with myself. And I am feeling better every year. We can get this only through practice."

But I am not a serious person, and I am crazy too. So I got to a constant practice in a very gradual way. Or sometimes, my practice is to just put my hands on my body, and that's it, and I fall asleep, and that's all.

Several times a week, [I meet] what I call my Reiki family. Sometimes we work very deep, sometimes [we just enjoy each other's company.] But there is a lot of consistency. For many of us, it is joy, a hobby, a part of our life.

I am not a person with a rigid mind, but since 1999 I have always asked questions to Doi sensei. Deepening my knowledge about Reiki and sometimes writing about it. For now, I just have translated books, and I am not ready to write a book yet. But sometimes, I write for my blog and website.

DIR: When I studied Reiki many years ago, there was not a lot of good material. There were mostly some manuals published as a book. And now there are so many! You translated this beautiful book of Hiroshi Doi called Traditional Reiki that collects some of his speeches. There is this need for material because we don't need our "head" to practice, but we need our understanding to guide our practice. It's not intellectual knowledge, and it's an understanding that opens the door to a more profound practice.
You mentioned the meditation Hatsurei Ho. Can you explain what Hatsiurei Ho is and its role in your practice?
RS: Hatsurei Ho is something Mikao Usui started when he founded Usui Reiki Ryoho. It is a series of energy cleansing work and also spiritual elevation work.

For the spiritual elevation, the first thing they use is Emperor Meiji's poem. Tanka is a short form of waka, a Japanese poem with 31 syllables, and Mikao Usui selected 125 of them. He used to make his students recite these poems.

So the first step of Hatsurei Ho is to recite one of these poems. Then we do energy cleansing through Kenyoku Ho or dry bathing. Then we have the Purifying Breath (Joshin Kokyu Ho). Through visualization, we use the white light of Reiki and a type of breathing to cleanse your inner energy. Because there must be good resonance [between] internal Reiki and external Reiki, the Reiki of the universe. Then we have Seishin Toitsu.

When we practice in groups, a Shihan guides these sessions. Each [participant] receives from the Shihan what we call a Reiju, an external purification from the master. Because Hatsurei Ho is more to cleanse ourselves.

Then another form of elevating our spiritual energy is to recite the Gokai, the five principles of Reiki.

It is very interesting. Because Usui Reiki Ryoho is really self-purification and self-development work, we always have to extend the light to the universe. So that step of Hatsurei Ho is what we call prayer. [Places hands in Gassho]. We ask for the happiness of the rest of the world or the universe, and that is Hatsurei Ho.

I think it's a great idea from Usui sensei for Reiki practitioners. It's something very pleasant to do, something that's easy to do, but very effective. You don't have to go to Mount Kurama to fast or do something very hard; you just have to do something [with presence] and then get very good effects.

DIR: I love what you just said. Sometimes we think spiritual development involves great sacrifices or feats, like climbing a high mountain. But, in reality, we just have to be present. We don't need to get training after training; we just need to practice consistently with presence. This makes it so accessible. And even though Hatsurei Ho is a series of techniques, it is not very complex. Every human can do it, and even a kid can do it.
I didn't know any wakas, so I used to recite the precepts at the beginning of Hatsurei Ho instead of a waka. But now I have your book, and I go through a waka weekly. They are beautifully translated into Spanish, and I can't wait for you to do it in English. You actually worked in partnership with a poet. I love you are also bringing these beautiful illustrations. Is there anything you want to explain about wakas?
RS: Of course, reading them but also reciting them would be very interesting because then you can use fully the power of what we call Kotodama, a Japanese term that is… to work with the power of words. The only thing you need to do is to emit the sound, and the vibration of the sounds is what is going to work. Also, these words come from a person with a pure heart… with a great wish to grow. That's Emperor Meiji. So these words also have a lot of strength. Very powerful.

DIR: And for those unaware of Japan's history, Emperor Meiji was the one who modernized Japan in 1965. He was supposed to have a deeply spiritual side. Did he write ten thousand poems?
RS: No, I think it was 100 thousand!

DIR: And these were all meant to share a teaching. I am so glad you are rescuing this practice. Beyond recitation, I like to use them for reflection.
RS: What I am also doing in Spanish is writing about Gyosei. [A waka is] called Gyosei when written by a Japanese emperor. I am also organizing workshops where people can read, recite, and share their interpretations of the poems. I also give them historical context and the classical interpretation by scholars of the Taisho era—the era after Meiji.

This is a very important part of the Usui Reiki Ryoho practice. When you comprehend them, you comprehend a lot of other things.

DIR: When I hear of wakas, Hatsurei Ho, and recitation—it feels like an invitation to train further. We often end a certification feeling like they include all we need to know. But we must keep a beginner's mind, no matter how long we have been practicing.
Because we may have a long-standing practice, but sometimes, being exposed to something different can spark an insight. Or at least lets us know that there are other ways to practice. We all have different practices, but the core is the same.
So, I ask every person I interview is an oops or what you could call a teachable lesson. What would be one for you?
RS: I definitely have one that is very big. I am still working on it. When I started Reiki, it was such an experience, very pure, from the heart. I got to know wonderful people, one after another, like a chain. I ended up being surrounded by a beautiful Reiki family. But I left my profession in which I used to earn money and from which I never had a problem receiving money. But when I got to know all these beautiful, wonderful people, I started having difficulty charging money on many occasions. That is very typical, I think, with spiritual practitioners. We fall into this kind of misunderstanding. Of course, I charge for my courses and things like that, but we have been doing many activities together… Even though many of them know, they tell me in a very nice way and with a sense of humor, "Rika, you are an idiot; why don't you charge us?" [Laughs]

DIR: When your students and people tell you, please charge us; you know something is going on!
RS: Yes! Sometimes I was so into helping others I forgot about myself. And that is a big trap when you are in this kind of work. I am working on this kind of blockage I have, and I have done so for many years. Do you call them blocks?

DIR: Emotional blockages, limiting beliefs, needs not met… But also, as women, we were raised to care for others, to serve and give. I believe younger generations are a bit more balanced, but I still feel we need to ensure everyone is happy and do so for free.
RS: I was so happy. It is the kind of trap that you fall into because you feel happy helping others, but you need to eat. You need to pay your rent. Of course, I learned a lot. For me, it's been one of the most positive lessons I am going through. When you have a challenge that is very difficult for you to overcome, it really makes you work on that. For me, it's like an adventure. I learned to also enjoy this kind of adventure. Sometimes they seem negative, but now I thank these things that happen to me as my life lessons, and after passing through these kinds of challenges, I always grow. And I am so happy. I think what makes me happy as a person is my personal growth.

Many people don't like or fear big challenges or difficulties in life. It may sound a bit weird, but I love them now. I love them because they make me grow a lot. And I also work a lot: I cleanse, I cleanse, I cleanse; to understand some things. Maybe I started cleansing a part of myself, but other aspects are also being purified without knowing. It's very fascinating.

DIR: I love what you are saying about purifying. Sometimes in Reiki practice, we struggle to become versus letting go of what we are not. So I think that is an interesting mental shift: we don't need to achieve; we just need to cleanse and see that it is already in us.
It is also more real about Reiki practice. When I started, I believed I would place my hands on people and things, and everything would go just peachy. But the reality is that you will still face challenges, and practice allows you to remain more centered and grow from them.

What is the one thing that helped you regarding the challenge of charging money?

RS: Reiki is a wonderful and effective tool; we can heal many things with Reiki. But we also have to be open-minded and not to listen to other people. Maybe people who are a coach or who are just wise and are sharing their point of view about this. What helped me most was to open my mind and not try to solve everything with Reiki. I tried that for many years. [And then] I had enough with Reiki. That is a big oops too! But I realized I wasn't solving too much.

When I started to open my eyes… and also the COVID crisis made us a little bit dependent on the Internet, but it helped me a lot because I started to see teachers in Japan and their spirituality, and I had never been looking to Japanese people, and I have always thought about the United States and that the best masters came from the United States. So it opened my eyes, and I think that is very important.

Reiki is not just laying on your hands or doing purification and things like that. It is life itself. How we live our lives, and how we grow and develop as a person. Also, in a certain way, we are preparing to go from this work in a peaceful way. Reiki is everything. We are living a human experience, and thanks to Reiki, we are living with a different perspective of this human experience. So everything converges to Reiki for many of us.

DIR: Thank you so much, Rika, for this beautiful interview.
RS: Thank you!

Drawing inspired by Reika’s Reiki journey.

DIVE INTO REIKI: Welcome to episode 13 of the Dive into Reiki podcast today with a lovely guest, Bronwen Logan. Bronwen is based in Australia, and she's a Reiki author, teacher, and co-founder of the International House of Reiki and Shibumi International Reiki Association. Due to her research into the Japanese aspect of the Reiki system since the early 2000s, Bronwen has been a major influence on how the system is taught and practiced worldwide. Her books, co-written with Frans Stiene, include The Reiki Sourcebook, The Japanese Art of Reiki, A to Z of Reiki Pocketbook, Reiki Techniques card deck, and Your Reiki Treatment. Bronwen also recorded the double CD Reiki meditations for self-healing and Reiki relaxation with Sounds True. 

Bronwen, I'm so grateful you accepted this invitation and that we all get a chance to know you better because I feel that we never see that other side of the International House Reiki. I would love to start with the same question I ask everyone on this podcast, when and how was the first time you discovered Reiki practice?

BRONWEN LOGAN: I would've been in my early 20s. I remember hearing about it then and thinking, what is this thing? And I remember some strange experience when I lived in Australia, and I went to some strange person's house, and they made me fill in all these forms. I actually have no idea what that was, but I remember that they were calling it Reiki. [Laughs]. I sort of went away from that thinking, "Huh? Okay." Then a couple years later, when I was living in Holland, my best friend came over to visit, and she had studied Reiki. She was doing Reiki on me all the time, and it was really lovely. That was a really excellent introduction. At that time in my life, I was trying to find out more about different practices. I was taking different meditation classes and just doing things to try to find out what might make me feel better in myself and stronger and happier. 

DIR:  I love when people come across Reiki through friends, especially a few years back when there weren't many professional practitioners. Right? Yeah. So what made you go from "I love receiving Reiki from my friend" to this is the practice that will, in a way, define your life.
BL: Well, I was living in Holland with Frans [Stiene, co-founder of the International House of Reiki]. We sold everything up and went to India. So yeah, it wasn't a holiday. We were going to travel through Asia, but he had very bad sciatica, which he'd had for a number of years. So we were looking for something because we were backpacking, you know. That's really hard to actually carry a backpack when you're in pain. So we were looking for something that could help with that. And we tried all different sorts of things and met different sorts of people. India is an amazingly [diverse] country. There are lots of different modalities and local indigenous things. That was very interesting.

Bronwen Logan.

 We went down to the South of India, where there's a lot of Ayurveda. That's like a traditional Indian healing system. We booked Frans into a little local place to have an ayurvedic treatment done, which is said to be very good for sciatica. We stayed there for a number of weeks while he was sort of going backward and forwards and having this treatment in the jungle. And at the same time, we were looking at healing modalities, and we came across a book. There was a book by Paula Horan. I think she's American and she lives in India. She had published a book about the system of Reiki. It was a very simple beginner's book. So that was really great. I remember sitting there, on the edge of the bed in the little room, trying to do this thing and not having any idea what I was doing. But very curious. So we thought that that would be an interesting practice to learn. 

When we went to Nepal, we came across an Englishman who lived there and was teaching the Reiki system. We were there for a number of months and studied through him. What he was teaching was a little bit all over the place, to be honest. But it sort of didn't matter in one way.

I did Reiki 1 and thought, "Oh, wow, this is truly amazing." And then I did Reiki 2, and I was just like, "Oh, this is something that could be—like you were saying before—like a defining moment. It's really something that will change everything, how I'm going to do things in life."

I was very fortunate at that time in my life that I didn't have a job to go to. I didn't have to do anything, you know, to be there for other people or do anything except really look at myself, see what was happening with me, and reach out to anything that could help me. So yeah, we then went on and did Reiki 3 there. It was great.

It was sort of mind-blowing this idea that we could teach this. So not long after being in Nepal, we went to Darjeeling in the Indian Himalayas, and we rented a house there right on the very top of Dajeerling, which we called Reiki House. And we started doing treatments and teaching people. 

So that was sort of it—it was definitely not my intention. And in fact, the reason why I went to India first was because I thought the food was really great. I love Indian food. So That was the main reason. And once I got there, it's a bit of an addiction, India. It's such a fascinating place. And then I thought we'd be moving on to Thailand and wherever else in Southeast Asia. But that didn't happen. I ended up being in India for two years at that point. Yeah. 

DIR: I love how many people go to India for a yoga or a spiritual journey. You went for food and ended up having a profoundly spiritual experience. I find the roads that take us to our destiny fascinating. So, how did you realize there was more to Reiki practice than the "all-over-the-place" training you got?
BL: When I first studied, the guy sort of had all these little bits of photocopies of this and that. This was in the late 1990s, and we didn't really have computers. I actually did get a computer when I started teaching the system of Reiki. And set up my first ever website, which was very exciting. You know, this long scrolly page. But what [out teacher] gave us was, I guess, photocopied out of books or things like that. And it was from different books, and I was like, how does this all fit together? I didn't have much of an idea. And then the idea that I wanted to teach people. How do you teach something that you know there's something really amazing there, but you are not quite sure how to put it all together. We did ask a lot of questions of that teacher and in the end, he told us not to contact him anymore. He just didn't know the answers, right? 

DIR:  [Laughs] I had the same experience. I called a teacher to ask questions, and he hung up on me too!
BL: [Laughs] Yeah. I mean, that's a difficult situation, but it's a really great learning lesson, isn't it? It's like, don't be like that. Don't do that. I've never said to anyone [that] I can't answer something. Even if I don't know the answer, I'll go away and work it out. Right. 

We came back to Australia, [where my mom lives] because I was pregnant, and continued to build a business. I had already done a teaching English as a Foreign Language course in England. I had done a little teaching before I left Australia as well. I studied performing arts. So I used to teach performing arts as well. So, we came back to Australia, and I did a business course. That was really great. I think a lot of the problems with people who are practicing the system of Reiki and want to start a business [is that] they may not have those skills, and it's another important part of that. But you learn, right? 

[The course] included things like marketing, how to do finances, and all those sorts of things—making your mind tick, go over in a different way and think about how you can best do this. That was really interesting. Within probably a year of that, I also did a teacher training and assessment course here as well in Australia. So just to get more teaching skills up, I think that's really important too. Another thing that people, you know, when they're teaching the system of Reiki, they just don't have the skills for teaching. So they're not really sure. Maybe they might be approaching things from an angle that might not work for their students. So, finding different ways of how people learn and what's the best thing for them. And that really helped me in creating the Ki Campus, our student website.

 And just while I'm talking about those things, also doing like a basic counseling skills course, you don't have to be a counselor because it's not about being a counselor but knowing how to be with someone if they're really upset. If someone comes in the door and they're not feeling great, what do you say to them? Just really basic, simple things like that I think are really helpful.

And first aid would be the other one that I would recommend that people have. I just saw in Australia that our treasurer for New South Wales—the state I'm in—was walking down the street, and someone had a fit in front of him and collapsed. He had his first aid, and he helped that person immediately. Everyone was like, "Wow, that's fantastic." I think it's a really good thing to have that. You can help people who are in need, and, as a Reiki practitioner, you just never know what's going to happen.

DIR: I think it's important because many of us struggle when we go professional. We may be just holding the space, or, as some people like to say, the energy is intelligent, but there is human interaction involved. How do we communicate during our sessions and classes? How do we react when our clients do something unexpected or have emotional releases? Those are human skills, and learning them can only benefit the people we serve and us. 
BL: Absolutely. A lot. I mean, as we speak, the energy is still flowing. Right? But there are still other aspects to this existence. They are the practical aspects which I think will make a big difference. And in fact, you know, they're the things that really set the International House of Reiki up to be the International House of Reiki. And if I look even at the name—the International House of Reiki. I mean, I would never have called our business the International House of Reiki. We were teaching out of our spare bedroom, with a baby in the other room when we started in Australia. But when I did the business course, they made me choose a name. The names that I wanted; I couldn't have. So, it automatically said, this is what we recommend that you should use because no one's got this name. I thought, "Well, Frans is from Holland, I'm from Australia, and we studied in Nepal and taught in India—that'll do [laughs].

DIR: And now you will teach classes worldwide and have the ki campus online. You grew into the name.
BL: In a way. I've always had quite an open sort of feeling with this, I must say. I've always [had the idea that] if you want to do something, you do it to the best that you can possibly do it. I did actually find that that year of teaching in Darjeeling was a bit like… [a sort of] internship. All that I would do in my week was get up, teach, and practice. We would go out and do treatments on local people, or they would come to us. Every couple of days, we were teaching people who were traveling through. So, it was a mixture of local people and travelers that we were working with, but it was constant. It was lovely. In this house that we lived, we had a lady who would come and make us breakfast. She was actually meant to be the cleaner, but she didn't like cleaning, so she'd make the breakfast [laugh], and that was really lovely and delicious. All I can think of when I think of that is pumpkin and tamarin and homemade rotis. So beautiful. Then we'd work, go out for lunch, come back, work, and go out for dinner because we didn't really have a kitchen. Then in the evening, I'd write. It was just heavenly. So non-stressful. You could just focus completely on what it is that you want to do. And so, it was a really great experience before moving back into the big world of having to earn a buck and that sort of thing. And have a baby. 

Back in Australia, we started researching more, and the internet was taking off. That was amazing. We started contacting people all around the world and saying, "What manuals do you use? What do you teach? Who did you study with?" 

[We] started collecting folder upon folder of information and putting that all together. And then in 2001, we went to Japan. I had worked out to meet different teachers that were living there. We met Chiyoko, Yamaguchi, who's no longer with us. Hyakuten Inamoto, a pure land monk. He took us around, and we met another teacher who was from the Gakkai. It was an excellent way to ground ourselves a little bit more in what was happening in Japan or had happened in Japan. There wasn't that much happening in Japan at the time. I noticed that a lot of the Japanese people were very much interested in what we were doing in the West. They were into things like Dolphin Reiki and, you know, things like that [laughs].

And I was like, "This is really weird! We want to know what people are doing in Japan, and Japan wants to know what's been happening over in the West." That was an interesting experience. 

So, we got all this information, put it together, and I spent at least a year writing The Reiki Sourcebook. The thing was that I met this guy who ran a bookstore here, and he'd written something like 55 books, and it was a spiritual bookstore. I don't even know how we got to talk, but anyway, we ended up going out, having a meeting and me saying, "This is the idea for the book." And he's like, "If you know what it is you want to write, it's going to happen." I said, "Okay." And he said, "Actually, I've got a publisher in the UK who would be more than happy to have a look at it. Write a couple of chapters, send [I will] send it through." And I did and got a publishing contract. So, it was really easy [and] really lovely. 

The good thing was that I had a date to have it finished. So, all that information I had to collate, go through, and make sense of—and that was The Reiki Sourcebook. I was so thrilled about that. It was a great thing to have put together because it expressed the confusion that I'd had when I started learning. It's not a book for a beginner, but if you were a teacher that you could look into this book and go, "So I was taught this technique, where does that technique come from? Or this is the lineage that I'm in. What does that mean?" You know, who says what, where, what was introduced at what point in that lineage and because there was a lot of confusion around what the system of Reiki was at that time. I think that writing that book and then The Japanese Art of Reiki has really helped to clarify for a lot of people what the system is. What it's made up of. The idea is that there's a certain number of elements that you have to practice to be able to say that you're actually working with the system of Reiki. Because what I found incredibly frustrating was that people would go, "Oh yeah, I do Reiki." And I'm thinking, "What do they mean I do Reiki? You know, like I do spiritual energy. I don't understand that." I mean, we are spiritual beings. We're also physical beings. It was just very confusing. So if someone says they do Reiki, does that mean they actually studied a course? Or did someone say my grandmother told me how to do something? Which I don't invalidate at all, but it may not be the system of Reiki. 

 It's a bit like saying that you do Tai Chi or something. Now Tai Chi is working with energy and moving. Well, if I work with energy and moving, do I do Tai Chi? No, I need to actually learn the practices, right?

DIR: And also bringing to light elements like Reiki meditations that were not well-known at the time. 

BL: When I studied in Nepal with the English guy, there were meditations, but they weren't the same. I think that people realize that if you're going to do spiritual practice, there is some level of meditative practice in that. 

When I first came back to Australia, at that time, I was talking to another Reiki teacher, and she was going to me, "Oh no, no, no, there's no breathing practices in the system of Reiki. I teach the real [Reiki]." You have to go through that experience. I went through that experience, anyway, of having to try to work out what was and wasn't real for me. Most of the people that you would talk to had studied through Western practices, through Hawayo Takata, who had taught from Hawaii. A lot of them had different ideas. Trying to discuss this was incredibly difficult. And that also helped to write because you're trying to refine what you're understanding from what you've been discovering and putting that together... I think the problem there was that, in the West, people were very much focused on hands-on-healing.

One of the elements of the system of Reiki is working with your hands. But it's just one of the aspects. It's not the aspect. We were taught the precepts right way back in the beginning, but it was not discussed and not really thought about. If we think about it now, we can see that the precepts are actually out of the five elements; the one that these are the four elements are saying if you work with us, then you'll be this. So it's the more important part, right? If there is a more important part… If we can be those precepts, then we can be the then we are Reiki. Then we discover our true selves. We discover what it means to be what, ultimately, we would call enlightened. 

DIR: For me, the precepts make the practice so much more approachable. When I meet people and want to explain Reiki, I just use the precepts: a spiritual practice that allows you to let go of anger and worry and to become more grateful and compassionate. Who doesn't want that?
BL: That's beautiful. For me, the system of Reiki is incredibly simple. It's not bells and whistles, and I'm very much no-rules-Reiki… Of course, there is a foundation and a structure.

DIR: Yes, because if not, people can go a little rogue there [laughs].
BL: When we start making rules, it's all in the head, it's all this rational, you know? What I think, you know what I mean? So letting that go. 

DIR: Changing gears a bit here: I would love to talk about your experience guiding Reiki meditations. I really enjoy the clarity with which you guide them and the way you use your voice to hold the space. A lot of us in the Reiki community create guided meditations. What are some of like the dos and don'ts when it comes to doing guided meditations? 
BL: I think a lot of people love guided meditation because it helps their brain to latch onto something. I mean, the Zen thing where you would sit for hours and do [nothing is] incredibly hard. In our society, we are more intellectually based. We are too top-heavy. Guided meditation will help with that. 

Some of the dos of guided meditations are: 

I always say to people, record yourself first… and then listen back. Does it make any sense what you just said? Because you might forget to tell people something simple like just to close their eyes or whatever. You might not think about what they're doing with their hands. So and people are thinking, "Oh!" So instead of them meditating, they're thinking about, "Am I meant to be doing this, or am I meant to be doing that? So physically really helping people move into the space and knowing where they are. 

I always say that with Reiki treatments as well, that what you want is the person to be really, really comfortable. Because the more comfortable that someone is, the less their mind is going to be active. If they're uncomfortable, then their mind's going to go, "What are they going to do now?" There's just all this stuff going on in their heads. What we really want is for them to be able to let go and to be in the space. So, making someone comfortable in whatever way that is, I think that's really important. 

I mean, there are lots of dos and don'ts, for example, telling them how long the meditation's going to be. Because they might think when you start [that] it's going to be five minutes, or they might think, "Oh my God, do I have to sit here for an hour?" Giving them guidelines, really supporting the person, thinking about the other person, being empathetic, putting yourself in their position. [These are] really basic fundamental things to do. 

The other thing is [that] when we are speaking, and we do meditation, we are going into that space as well. So, we need to be careful that we don't end up going [inward] it and [our voice] just fades away. Ensuring that you're actually still in the space with the students because it's very easy to go into your own practice. As a teacher, you need to be in both spaces at once. And that is a little bit of a challenge, but it's something that you can practice and get better at. 

But even though it's great to be in that space, because then we are holding that space, we also need to be able to feel that space. We need to also have that sense of knowing that we are here and being aware of what's going on for the students. You don't know what's going to happen. And different students can respond in different ways… They might be shocked by what's happening or something like that. And you need to be aware if that's happening in the group and if you need to be there for someone.

DIR: So I know that you also extended your teachings to Reiki with animals because you love them. What is your approach to this?
BL: About? Yeah. I've always had animals in my life. But, you know, I always see humans as animals. I've had lots of humans in my life too. [Laughs].

DIR: They're many animals too, but that's a New York joke. [Laughs].
BL: Yes, but I'm talking about well-mannered animals, Nathalie! [Laughs]. I've always had some animals. I find in our society, the way that we talk to children is quite different to the way that we talk to adults... With children, there are so many beautiful picture books where the animal talks, the animal is the same as you—I'm talking about non-human animals. Yeah. The non-human animals are the same as you and me… It has feelings. It can feel pain. It can be sad. It can be happy. And children love that, you know, and they see that in animals. 

Definitely, as a child, I related to animals. I just felt they were the same. I still have this image of my dad cleaning out the pond, and he had all these tadpoles in water in a bowl that he'd gotten out of the pond. He's going to throw them away, and I'm like, "Don't throw the pet!" And this adult world not understanding that. And yet this adult world had also come from this child world. So, when children grow up… it's like the rules change, you know?

How many kids have asked, "Oh, what is it that I'm eating?" And someone will say, "Well, that's pork." "What's pork?" "Well, you know that cute book about the pig? That's a pig you're eating." And then the child has to grow up and accept that this is what humans do. But we don't have to do that. We can retain that connection that we understand as children and that we don't mind allowing children to understand. And that we almost encourage children to understand. And then we take the humanity out of the humans.

I don't think I lost that particular humanity, at any rate, you know? I've always really retained this feeling. Not being the Lord of, but sharing my life with other animals—human or non-human. It just feels very right to me. When I was a kid, I had dogs, cats, and rabbits. Now I have a pig, Flora. I've got dogs and cats, and I've got horses, and I've had goats. I've got chickens and ducks. We all share this space together. And they all tell me what they want or what they don't want, or whether things are good or not good.

People love coming here because the animals actually share the space as well. I don't have a pig style. I don't know if you remember what that is. I do because my mother had a dairy farm with a pig style, and it's like this little space with these big pigs inside it. And they have to live in the mud. And that's actually not how pigs in their natural existence live. Thinking about how animals live and how they are at their happiest and trying to make way for them to experience that in the same way that I'm able to experience it. So, you can say, what does that have to do with the system of Reiki?

Like I said, I'm a bit of a "no-rules" Reiki person. I'm very much about letting go and finding truth in a situation and using the precepts to help me find those truths. And for me, the truths are that these animals need to live and exist in the best way that they can possibly live. I allow them to go everywhere, but I create ways to make everybody safe. To keep everybody happy. It's more about living together rather than me trying to make them do or be something for me.

DIR: Like a living embodiment of the practice versus offering hands-on healing to the pig for ten minutes.
BL: Yeah. My pig is very chatty. I've heard people say that they've never met a pig as chatty. She tells you the whole story. If there is something wrong, she tells me this whole thing, and she's gotten it out of the system. She's an absolutely amazing character, and it's wonderful for people to see an animal that they think of as food. People just have no idea what a pig is actually like. To meet a pig, to experience that is really meaningful… So then they actually need to have a think about things and [food]—would you eat your dog? 

The other thing that I was going to say about that is that I totally believe that each of us, we create our own universe. We create this world and how [we] live. And this is the life that I have chosen. So I think people need to think about that. If we can do good within this universe, other people see that, and that affects other people. 

DIR: I love that! I think that sometimes we want to save the world, but it's such a big endeavor that we never do anything. [Yet] just by changing ourselves and becoming kinder and more centered, we actually can create change.  To close my interviews, I like to ask people like you—renowned Reiki masters with many years of practice and very respected—if you can share an "oops," 'Whoops," or teachable lesson. 
BL: I think from a very personal level that we all need to constantly work on ourselves. And I think as a teacher, maybe I can't think of a good whoop for you, but being a better listener is definitely… a really good thing to know. That when things don't work out how you imagine them, just understanding that that's the way things are. 

I think there are a lot of those just very natural human things that I wish that I could be better. The only thing I can just think about right now is that I had someone in a class who had PTSD, and I did actually know that, but I didn't ask for details. I wish I'd known much more about that experience before I went into the class because that person actually had really severe PTSD and was actually taking medications... I mean, everything was fine and it all worked out in the end, but, you know, I really felt like I had let myself down by not understanding the situation better and obviously having to do more managing in the class than what I probably would have had to have done in the first place. So, you know, understanding those things about people [is an important lesson.]

DIR: I have one last question: can you share one single tip to deepen our practice?
BL: I think that this relates to what I was saying earlier: the idea of letting go. Yeah. Especially if we're stuck. I was saying before, no rules. Really just letting go of what you think you should be doing or shouldn't be doing. Letting that all go and just sitting in that [beautiful open]. And when we're in that open space, then everything comes. 

DIR: Thank you so much for sharing your wonderful knowledge and wisdom with us. 
BL: Thank you!

Drawing inspired by Bronwen’s internview.

Maria Kammerer is a full-time Reiki practitioner, teacher, and community leader based in Cincinnati, Ohio. Her Reiki journey started in the year 2000, and she continues to practice and develop her understanding of Reiki. Maria is a graduate teacher with the International House of Reiki and the founder of Attune the Art of Reiki. She is also the host of Be the Light podcast. We discuss her origin story, making a living out of Reiki, the importance of community in developing our spiritual journey, and tips to deepen our practice. 

DIVE INTO REIKI: Maria, thank you for accepting the invitation!
MARIA KAMMERER: Thank you so much for having me here. I'm so excited to chat with you and your lovely community. Thanks!

DIR: I wanted to start with the question I ask every interviewee: when was your first encounter with Reiki? What was your origin story as a Reiki practitioner?
MK: I love thinking about an "origin" story. It's like a superhero story. Thank you! That makes me laugh a lot. But you know, it's also powerful. I encountered Reiki when I was doing a year in service with AmeriCorps. It's like the Peace Corps but in my own community. At the time, I was going to school. I was young. I had been a single mom, I had met my sweet husband, we had another baby, and I was working. [It was] a full and crazy, crazy life. 

DIR: Indeed, I don't know how you even did that!
MK: Reiki practice, actually! I did it because I'm really strong, right? And so I just kept going. [Like] so many people. We all keep going. We burn out, and we keep going anyway. We try to sleep, and we can't get to sleep very well. We wake up the next day, and we're operating from that place of [running on empty.] You don't have anything left, but you keep going. And at some point, I was like, there has got to be another way. Luckily, I was working at a women's resource center. One of the women in that community was a Reiki practitioner [and] teacher, and she was so sweet. She was such a wonderful woman. There was something about her. It was probably her Reiki practice, right? She was so peaceful. She was so happy. [And] I had so much turmoil at an emotional level—baggage about my parents being divorced, being the seventh child, etc.

DIR: That's why you're so boisterous. You had to remind them you existed!  
MK: I was actually super, super shy and quiet. Through my Reiki practice, I've been able to kind of accept who I am more— [I became] much friendlier, much more fun. So, I had a lot of turmoil [at] all levels of my life. My friend recommended going to a Reiki treatment, and I was like, "I don't know what Reiki is, but I'm going to try it." It was the best thing I've ever done. I just felt more myself. And it was like, "How do you forget yourself?" I felt myself again, and I felt so happy, so in the flow. I felt at peace. I got home, and I just felt all this overwhelming sense of love for my family. Because I was present, really present, and I could love them the way that they needed to. There were my two boys, now in their twenties. I always wanted to be a good parent. I always wanted to be a good person. And I think Reiki really helped me to do that because I could be myself. I could let go of my worry. I could let go of my fear. I could just be, have more gratitude and more compassion.

Maria Kammerer, of Attune: the Art of Reiki.

DIR: I love the way you put it because a lot of us, we take a Reiki class, and we're like, "Oh, I didn't see the angels. I didn't see colors, but I feel very peaceful." We say it's less of an experience. Yet how many times are we feeling really peaceful in our lives? It's such a gift to be present and calm.
MK: Oh my gosh, so true. Because we can lose track of what's really important in life, you know, and a lot of times we want to be entertained, which is great. I love to have fun, no doubt. But actually, being peaceful means that I can really be resting in myself. And then I have the freedom to have fun, no matter what the conditions are, to get the most out of my life. Even accepting the anger or the angry parts of who we are. That's so healing. And that comes [when] you have peace in you—you're able to accept the sadness or the other parts of yourself that you've been trying to hold back or hold down.

DIR: When we're doing the pre-interview, you said a phrase that really struck me: you have to love yourself so much that you love even your anger, and that for you, Reiki practice allowed that. That is really such a beautiful statement. 
MK: As I mentioned earlier, I used to be really, really shy, and I used to be so stiff too. Like, "All right… I gotta be perfect." I just wanted to fit in. I never felt like I've really fit into anything, you know? And so I tried to blend in super hard, and that's so much effort. I mean, you should've seen me on the dance floor. [She dances like a robot.] I couldn't be free. 

DIR: I met you three, four years ago. And when you're describing yourself as shy and stiff, I can't believe it. You were always dancing, moving, and laughing. 
MK: Isn't that funny? I started to relax into my own body. I feel like I embody who I am now because my energy is in my own self. It's not out there trying to control the world or my own emotions. I'm not looking for happiness and peace outside of myself. I used to think, What do people mean by "love yourself"? What is peace? How to let go. Sometimes that can be a puzzle. But I think we have to start to trust ourselves a little more and just do the practice. Just sit, practice, and [let go] all that stuff that the mind puzzles through. How to love your anger? That's a huge thing. It comes with [practice]. You start to unfold and accept things: the angry parts of you and the loving parts even more. And the, and the bitchy parts—sorry for cussing!

I can allow myself [to be.] I can be funny. I never could do that before. Transformation, it's so good that we can progress. We can start to live more in the moment.

DIR: There is something essential in what you said: we alw­ays expect the attunement to do the work. However, the attunement is an initial taste of that peace of mind, acceptance, and feeling good. Daily practice is what allows us to shed all those layers of anger and fear. 
MK: I'm glad you said that because it's true. I love to learn things. I took all the Reiki classes I could. I was like, "I'm so hungry for this. I love it." I was learning modern teachings. But I think that to really progress in your own transformation, to continue to let go of layers, you need to have that dedication to yourself. What happened at the beginning is that I felt really good, and then I stopped practicing. 

DIR: Like most of us do!
MK: Because you feel good. So you're like, "Yeah, I feel good." And then you slowly start to feel worse and worse and worse. And then I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I have this Reiki practice!" Some lightbulbs would go on, I would practice, and then, oh my gosh, I would feel really good. Then at some point, I said to myself, "I've got to stop doing this to myself." I think I became so aware of my own state of being [I realized that] I have a choice. If I feel bad, you know what? I have a choice: I can dedicate myself to this wor­k of showing compassion, loving myself more by doing the work, and being diligent in my practice. And I think that's super important. And that way, I continue to feel good and then feel better and better and, and who freaking knows, right? It is such a joy. Every day is a new day. Every moment is a fresh moment. 

DIR: When we talked another time, you mentioned the precept "gyo-o hageme," which many people translate as "work hard," but it's really more about practicing diligently. When I went to a Zen monastery, it also means when you sit and new practice, you're already enlightened. So this precept is also a reminder that you already are enlightened. You just need to practice, right? Okay, I probably killed this a little bit. [Laugh.] I think it's one of the less talked about precepts, so it was very exciting when I heard it was your favorite precept! 
MK: I love "gyo-o hageme"! To me, [when we say] work or being diligent, we could squeeze the juice out of anything. We can make our meditation practice so dry and can punish ourselves with it. So I think actually practicing diligently, or diligence is actually to enjoy. To enjoy the meditations and to really enjoy that hands-on healing and feel that loving touch. We cannot really be as open if we work too hard at it. If we try to make something happen or want to create some effect, we have too much stuff in the way. So, you know what? Stop, enjoy this moment, enjoy your own breath, your own energy, body, mind—and that's when I think it just feels really good.

DIR: I know, it's about doing a chore. It's really, as you say, about self-love. This precept is self-love in action. It's one of my favorite precepts, although the one I need the most is "Just for today," which is not literally one, but... I was so excited when I discovered you were another "gyo-o hageme lover." I have a whole class on it: The underdog precept. 
MK: The "gyo-o hageme team!

DIR: When we talk about your origin story, you trained with several teachers, you hit a wall, and later you found a community that helped move forward. I wanted to talk about the importance of having a Reiki community, in your case in Cincinnati. 
MK: I think we're so lucky to have a beautiful Cincinnati Reiki community. It was founded by Sundar Kadayam and Zeynep Yilmaz. They are wonderful practitioners, really dedicated to their own practice.

I learned from lots of different teachers, all wonderful but more a Western-style Reiki, which is great, and I think it helped me actually so much in my life, as you can tell. But at one point in my practice, [I struggled.] I am such a hard worker, that's probably why I like gyo-o hageme. I'm just like, "I will do my homework. I will read the books." Do you know what I mean? I was doing that with the teachings I had, and it just didn't make sense to me. I didn't really understand how Reiki worked. I was teaching, but I didn't understand so many things. My progression definitely hit a wall. I felt like I was just spinning my wheels and not really going forward. 

So Zeynep, the coordinator for the Cincinnati Reiki, reached out to me, and she invited me to go to this group. I was like, "Oh my gosh, I don't know what's going to happen!" Like, "What are these people going to be like?" Because I'm pretty much alone. I can be a loner. I'm good by myself. So, I went and, oh my gosh, this group was so beautiful. They're so harmonious and welcoming. I really appreciated that. Because I was still a little shy, and I wasn't sure. I was a little suspicious of them. They will laugh to this day.

They started to share the chanting... The chanting [was] part of their tradition that they had learned from Frans Stiene and the International House of Reiki. And I got to chant with this beautiful group. It was probably like 25 or 30 Reiki practitioners. And I was blown away. I felt like, "Oh my gosh, Reiki is me. It's in me. And it's in my own Hara. It's in my own center." It made so much sense, and it felt so good. [Having that community] completely changed the way that I felt about Reiki and how I practiced.

Over the years, we've gotten together so many times. But we have two main events, twice a year, that we all gather together. And it's from people from all different lineages, not just the International House of Reiki. Everyone's invited. We practice, we learn. Having the support of people that understand your language around energy or have similar experiences to you [was amazing.] They became for me like a bigger family of people to love you and support you in your life. And that's what it's really become—this ever-widening circle of Reiki family. And I feel like I meet more Reiki family all over the world like you, and people from Australia, Germany, and California. It's just so great. Having that group showed me so much, like Reiki's many faces and everybody's different transformation and development. It's so many lessons, right. As I said, I come from a big family already, so to me, that felt really natural. 

I would try to talk to other people about Reiki, especially at first. I was like, "Come here, come here and try this Reiki stuff. It's amazing." They were like, "Crazy lady!"

DIR: Crazy lady is the favorite one! A lot of people want to create Reiki circles and Reiki communities. Can you give a few tips? What is critical for someone who wants to create a community that is both relevant and sustainable?
MK: Now I'm hosting the Cincinnati Reiki events. I feel like the more we practice, the more we include more people automatically. When you practice, you're practicing not just for yourself but for your family and your loved ones. Then that wider circle starts to happen. I think your personal practice is really important. Then if you feel you want to start a group for yourself—and I encourage you to do that, it's always more fun with friends— having the dedication to continuing to show up. 

If you have even just one person in mind who would practice with you, that's great. Don't wait for the perfect circumstances to begin. Invite that one person. Set the date and time. Once you put it on your calendar, it's going to happen. You have that one person that you're accountable to; it's got to happen.

DIR: I love how simple you made it. Right. We think it's all about creating a Facebook page with a following and creating logos and names. It actually starts with one person and a calendar invite.
MK: We have to keep it simple. It's just that you want to gather together. You want to practice together. You know, it can be very simple like that. And just remain open to you know who you want to invite… If you have a few people that maybe you took classes with, or maybe [who love] Reiki treatments, or just a little bit of interest, right? It's just like a little seed that you water, and it starts to grow. And the only thing that it needs is your time, a bit of attention, compassion, and it will grow.

DIR: I love that. Just start with one, and little by little, it will grow. And don't get frustrated if there are few people for the first two or three circles because it takes time to build a community. 
MK: Absolutely. But if you just keep holding that space open, if you just keep going and then, of course, it will start to develop,

DIR: You've been practicing for over 20 years. Is there one tip you will give someone to deepen their practice? Is there a straightforward piece of advice for people to deepen their practice or fall back in love with their practice again if they feel stuck or disenchanted?
MK: I love this question! I think, "Don't strive for perfection." That's not what life is. You know, perfection, when I think about that, it's so not alive. It's so plastic and not alive, don't strive for that. Strive to just be here now. All you have to do is this one step: fully do that one thing, that one breath, that meditation, or that one practice. Forget everything else. Really commit yourself to that five minutes of breathing in the Hara, and not worrying about that you've got to be one with the universe, or you have to feel the light or see the light or any of that. Just get to enjoy what is here. That's so unusual because we often go so quick, so fast in our life, we're going for the next practice going for the next goal, or going for the next thing. But, if we just rest in that one thing that we're doing, it doesn't matter what it is. It could be driving. You are Reiki already. Your spiritual journey is already happening. Remember to include yourself in everything that you do. 

DIR: You made it so simple. We're not fixing, we're not, self-improvement, we're just being. We all struggle with similar issues, but we don't talk a lot about that side of our practice. Perfectionism is a hard one, especially for women and especially here in the US. There is pressure for us to be strong yet soft, to be witty, feminine, everything. The list keeps growing.
MK: It's so true. That's too much. We put ourselves under so much pressure, and we just had to let off the pressure and just be ourselves because we got to start to trust who we are. Because there's nobody like you out there, and you've got to trust that. One of our teachers, Frans Stiene, used to say, "You got to love yourself 200%." I was like, "I understand what you're saying in my mind, but the rest of me doesn't get that." I think I understand that more these days, and I am super grateful for that. I feel like it's this caring: I know the state of my own being now; I'm a little more aware of how I'm feeling. I'm just tending to that a little more. Each day I'm not striving to be perfect or like anyone else, at least for now.

DIR: You are a wonderful being,
MK: I kind of want to be Michelle Obama, but you know…

DIR: Well, now that you say, Michelle Obama, yeah! Like that. Beyond any political belief, a woman who keeps going to Target and is grounded after going to the White House—that's my kind of woman. 
MK: She is amazing; she's herself!

DIR: I always saw Reiki as a practice of acceptance of the self, but the way you put it into words—this coming into your being with authenticity—feels more joyful. Be fully who you are, show your colors. 
MK: Why not? One of the problems is that we think we have so much time. Actually, we're all going to die someday, so we might as well make the most of it. 

The more true you are to your way in your being—one of the Reiki precepts—the easier it is to allow others to be free, to be true to themselves. And I love that because it's so much more flexible, so much more open. I can be who I am right now, and it may be different tomorrow. Who knows? My husband thinks that's funny. He's like, "You're still the same as you were yesterday." I'm like, No, I'm not!"

DIR: You actually make a living off Reiki practice, a challenge many practitioners struggle with. How do you balance the money side with the spiritual side?  
MK: Hmm. That's a great question. Having a Reiki business is different than other businesses. It cannot be the way that we work at everything else. It's a spiritual journey, and Reiki is a spiritual practice, right? So you can't have the business the same way. I see my business as more holistic: all parts of my business have to be about healing. And most of that healing is my healing. Some people would say, "Well, that's kind of a selfish thing to say." But we have to stop thinking about that: it's not selfish to care for yourself and take care of yourself. In fact, it's the best thing that we can do for our loved ones and the world. Because that's a little less anger out there.

DIR: We have to see self-care as everybody care. Because if you're centered, you're not going to be driving the other people mad.
MK: Yeah. So, you know, the money aspect of my business… I have to work on my own piece about that and work on my money issues. When things come up, when [you are] feeling fear, you need to take good care of yourself. During our spiritual journey, you uncover these uncomfortable truths… about yourself, sometimes about others, but it's okay to face them. With a [solid] practice, we have the energy, we have the mental space in our minds, hearts, bodies, whatever, to see those things and take good care of them. Because then we can let them start to open up however they need to [in] a way we digest these lessons like food. We take our experiences in, and we take the wisdom from these experiences. We digest them, and we can let go of everything else. 

So I learned a lot about my fears regarding money and being paid to serve others. And also, people would bring me things like, "You're making money off of people, and that should be free." And I was like, "Well, actually, I have to take care of my children and my family too. And I need to pay for groceries." My life is not the same as everybody else's, but you have to have harmony in your life. Harmony is a thing that's always kind of changing. As you grow, that harmony between money, your work, and your time at home changes. Whatever the situation is, [challenges keep] coming back again and again and again. You grow, and then there is harmony again. So yeah, I see it as an opportunity. 

I don't think you go into a Reiki business trying to make a bunch of money, right? Because that's not the purpose of that. I think you have to have a really good intention for yourself and what you're offering to the world, which is the system of Reiki. We have to be really clear about that. My intention for my work is to be true to the nature of who we are. I want to rest in that peace more and more of who I really am. And I offer that to anybody who wants to receive that. I want to re rest of my own Reiki energy. And I support people in their own remembering of what that is. Their own peace, their own happiness. 

I try to stay really clear about that, and that helps me as I develop my business. As I start putting pieces together [I ask myself], is this living the precepts? Because it can be very difficult. It's challenging. But I did start on just like anything else: I tried to keep it very simple. I started offering treatments while working full-time as one of the administrators at a school. That felt really good. I got a lot of joy out of sharing Reiki with other people. And then I started to teach a little bit and, oh my gosh, that's so much fun. Of course, my own practice changed, and so the way that I offer changes. I feel like Reiki is who I am and, and who I am is always flowing. We have to stay alive in our practice and in ourselves because things change all the time. I mean, think about COVID and all of that stuff. I had to shut my business down, and I was on the couch crying. I was heartbroken. I felt like my mission in life was canceled. 

DIR: It's such a different space you are working from. Instead of worrying about money first, it's the fact that your purpose in life has been canceled that affected you when it came to shutting down. 
MK: I've always been in this place of wanting to serve others. With Reiki, I found I could help myself and also serve others, which was awesome. I love the multitask! in a way, I want to receive what I want to share. I want to share from that place of feeling good and overflowing—that totally makes sense to me. By starting part-time, I wasn't worried about the bills so much. I could still pay my bills so I could manage my fear.

DIR: Starting to charge for sessions is one of the hardest parts!
MK: I had to work out [how to charge and all] these things. I gave myself the space and the time to develop as I needed to. And, you know, my teaching has changed how my Reiki treatments have changed from the beginning to now. I think it's just changed because I feel more peaceful. I think it's so simple; it's so practical. We got to take care of our hopes and fears in a Reiki business, so we don't get carried away. And really remain in that [space of] for this moment only so that you can be just receiving and healing yourself throughout the process.

So, when my mission got canceled, I had to cry. I had to take care of myself. And I realized, wait, I'm still here. It's not the end of my life. I can still offer what I can, and I'm going to do it. And so I did. If I had one Reiki session online, I was just really grateful for that. I just took good care of myself and my family. I ended up taking care of my neighborhood because I would just be walking all the time, and I'd noticed my neighbors were super isolated.

This is just life, right? The caring for my neighbors and my family in a new way. And we became closer. Normally we don't have that opportunity to chat with each other. Now I have a sweet little community. I'm so excited about that.

We have to keep growing and our business changes. The needs for your business change just as you do. So, stay open to that. Don't hold on to the way your business operates so much because it can change. What's precious and sacred is you and the people that you get to meet. Just remember that. Keep going, Don't give up.

And then the other thing is that anytime you want to try something new or bring something out into the world, start talking about it. I start telling people, "Hey, guess what I'm thinking about doing that." You get people to be on your side and support you through that process. Because if you're excited about something, your loved ones are excited about it too. And they will ask you about it next week: "Hey, how's that going?" That actually keeps you accountable. "Oh, yeah. I did nothing on it!"

DIR: Which happens often!
I did that before I started the podcast, and it's what forced me to go ahead and set up that first interview. It works? I love offering sessions, but I sometimes find it challenging to deal with some clients, especially in New York City. You mentioned the other time we talked an excellent piece of advice to deal with Reiki clients: the most compassionate way I can handle this situation. Can you elaborate a little on this?
MK: Sometimes, that precept can be hard: to be compassionate to yourself and others. But it made me realize that compassion is not about being nice. I grew up to be nice and a good person, and I wasn't being very compassionate to myself. I'm a giver. I took care of everybody else, and I always left myself out. So being compassionate is actually [asking yourself] what is the most loving action you can do for yourself and others. The more we start to work with that precept, the easier [it is] when difficulties happen, or difficult people are in our lives. I think it's to not hide from that, to not be afraid. We have the strength; we have the compassion to accept them for who they are. And also to be strong. Compassion can be very strong, can be very fiery. The most loving action can sometimes be a really sharp kick in the butt. Do you know what I mean? I have two boys. They really helped me with that!

One of my friends who I really, really loved once gave me some of the best advice. She said, "You're too nice. Your children, your husband, they're running all over you. You're being a doormat." But I think we can do this in our business too, that we just offer an offer, and it's not the right [approach.] It's okay to say no to your clients and to your students. And to not accept people as a client or a student. In fact, that may be the most loving action. [My friend] said, "Sometimes you just gotta go ape shit crazy on people, on your family, and let them know that it's not okay." I just thought that was hysterical. I got a good laugh out of that but, but she's right. Because by being too nice, we're not taking responsibility for what is happening in our lives. Also, we disempower people by not allowing them to hear the truth of the situation and take responsibility for their part of whatever that is. 

I'm just trying to think of a specific example. I have had a student who ran into a friend of mine who's an incredible Reiki teacher. He lives in a different state, so he sent him to me to be my student. And I was like, "Yeah, for my friend, of course, you're welcome to take my class. Oh, you want to take it for free? Yeah, of course, you can take my class for free. Oh, you're going to be a really tough person to deal with all the time. I can handle that." I cared for this person. I cared for our relationship for as long as we could, and I cared for myself, but I realized I don't need to put myself in those situations. Some students are not the right students for me.

DIR: I like to chat with the people who want to study with me to check if we both feel like we are a match. Especially when it comes to Reiki 3, as it implies a significant investment. 
MK: I think the more centered and grounded you are, the more you have clarity in your life, and how you're communicating Reiki is clearer. Then the people who come to see you are the people that need to be there. All my clients are so lovely, and my students are so lovely, and I really enjoy them. I have taken care of my stuff too. So I have a little less in me, which is also helpful, fewer buttons to push you a little more gratitude, and a little more compassion in me, which is great. Boundaries are a good thing, and being able to be strong and say no. Or say, "You know what? You [need] to practice." I'm going to tell the truth. Whether people receive that or not is up to them, that's their responsibility. And I am not worried about it. I'm less worried about it than ever.

DIR: I know. It's, I love that. Boundaries and truthfulness. I have some students that have the same question class after class. I know that if they sat and did their practice, they will not have that question. So my answer is, "Sit on your bottom and tell me next week." Sometimes the most compassionate action is making sure people practice versus "solving" challenges for them. To hold the space for self-exploration. And I love the way you put it, "Hey, it's on you."
MK: Yeah. It's so much more empowering when you support someone in their own healing. We know that's what's happening: people are healing themselves. We want people to be empowered and to have their own Reiki energy. To really embody that. It's such a gift. It just keeps giving to their families, to their world, to what's happening in their life. I really appreciate each person's sacredness in that space and that it's not me who's doing the healing. I'm there holding that space for each person, whatever's going on. Not examining too much in my mind. When people have questions or things, I just try to communicate from that place of compassion as best as I can. I also tell them, "If it doesn't resonate with you, just throw it out, forget it, take what you need from the situations, and just enjoy."

DIR: Changing course a little bit, you went to Japan for further training and recently completed a mountain monk training. Can you chat a bit about that?
MK: I was lucky enough to go to Japan with Oliver Drewes, Frans Stiene, and a really incredible group of Reiki practitioners from all over the world. That was called Walking in the footsteps of a Mikao Usui. I think getting to feel the land, culture, people, traditions, and walk on the mountains—I feel like those roots [are now] a part of me somehow. When we eat the food of a place and enjoy the culture, we learn so much from those experiences, of being immersed in practice. 

I continued researching on my own about Mikao Usui, the founder of Reiki, and his practices. I'm such a nerd in so many ways. I found a Shugendo mountain training that was happening in the United States. That's a very rare circumstance, as far as I can tell. So I was really excited to go because Mikao Usui practiced Shugendo. And Shugendo, it's about becoming one with Kami—or the divine nature of who you are—through accepting that Kami in nature, in yourself, the elements, and all of those things. It's a very aesthetic practice, so really difficult. One of my students called it Zen CrossFit! There's a lot of endurance practices that you go through. The point is not that you do the endurance, that you're super strong and can run, chant for 15 hours, and hike up the mountains with no food, not that much water. The important thing is that you are dedicated to that practice, that you really rest in who you are and trust your practice. You have that opportunity to see and confront your fears and the fact that you may die. It's pretty intense. You have compassion for yourself and can say, "That's good. I think I'll take a break." Because it's not about our ego—it's about really exposing our true nature a little more. 

It really helped me see a different aspect of Mikao Usui's practice and experience it for myself. I think that adds a different richness, a different perspective. I love exploring and keeping my practice really alive. And this was one way. I was so grateful to get out of my house [laughs] to embrace chanting the heart Sutra for hours and the Fudo mantra and being able to embody that mind like a mountain [quality.] rooted in peace, able to stand in any kind of weather.

DIR: For those not familiar with these practices and chants, you can find more about Shugendo here; listen to the Fudo Mantra chant here and here for the Heart Sutra.  My last question is another one I ask every practitioner. What is your biggest Reiki oops? What is the "mistake" that you made that made you go like, wow, this is a big lesson?
MK: Gosh, I mean, I mess up all the time! I actually think it is good to share mistakes. I think embracing our mistakes and our mess-ups is wonderful. It's just that gentling of that feeling that we have to be perfect. We don't. I learned so much from my mistakes; although I love to learn through happiness and joy, I think that's really important. We don't always have to learn through suffering and mistakes, you know? Happiness and joy are just as great. 

But when I first started practicing Reiki, I was super excited, and I was really forceful about it. I was like, "No, really sit down, sit, no sit. And I'm going to give you Reiki." So I've done all those things. So I can really understand people putting all the power of the universe on someone's knee and trying really hard. I really laugh about that now. At one point, I just was like, I'm so sorry to all my students! It's not that I messed up, but I kept changing and growing. My wisdom and my understanding of Reiki grew. I actually reached out to my beginning students like, "Hey, you guys, I'm practicing Reiki in a whole different way. I'm not putting all the power of the universe on our knees. I'm feeling my own relationship with the universe more and more, and I want to share that with you. It's so important to remember who you are that you are sacred; you are Reiki. Guess what? It's in you." 

DIR: [Laughs] I think, unless you've gone through all this process of trying too hard, trying to fix—you cannot be a compassionate teacher. And I also don't really know if it's a mistake or just a stage of learning we all go through. And as teachers or job is to hold a space where our students can be human and have an embodied practice.

Maria, I want to thank you so much for your time and the chance to know you better. Sometimes when we see people so happy, we enjoy the happiness. We don't get the depth of practice being that joy behind it. I really appreciate you sharing your journey with us! 
MK: Thank you so much! Take care. 

Reiki drawing inspired by Maria Kammerer’s journey.

Ifetayo White is a Reiki Master Teacher who is the founder and director of The Lowcountry School of Reiki on St. Helena Island, SC.  Having practiced and taught Reiki for more than 25 years, Ifetayo was attuned in 2020 as a Usui Shinpiden Reiki Master by Frans Stiene of the International House of Reiki. Her training as a doula, a massage therapist, and Jin Shin Do acupressure practitioner, and 10 years of experience working in mental health have created the container for her practice in somatic healing of traumatic memory stored in the body. For Ifetayo, Reiki is the foundation of everything she does in her life and is devoted to the daily practices of living Reiki.

DIVE INTO REIKI: Ifetayo, thank you so much for joining me. I see you, and I just smile!
IFETAYO WHITE: It's a pleasure to be here. Every time we come together, I have chills and tangles and excitement. Thank you so much for inviting me.

DIR: It's going to be a lovefest. Sorry. I like to start every interview with the same question: how did you come in contact with Reiki, and how did your journey begin?
IF: It's an interesting journey. My first experience with Reiki was in the 80s. I would think around 1984. I'm from Washington DC, and around that time, I was meeting the first Reiki practitioners… Eventually, one of my best friends became Reiki 1 first. She eventually became a Reiki master and became my Reiki teacher. At that time, I don't think anyone was charging for Reiki. At least my friends weren't. And so, we were all lined up all the time waiting to receive. And fortunately, Nathalie, my friend I owned a duplex house. She rented the first floor. So, it was always like nonstop Reiki. They had a lot of Reiki shares. So yeah, it became a go-to for me for any discomfort. Even when practitioners wanted to practice, I was always with my hand up. I try to remember what it was, what was I feeling, I'd know that I felt better. That's all I can think now because it was quite a while ago. I personally was not at all thinking about becoming a practitioner or a teacher. I was just really interested in receiving.

 DIR: That's beautiful. Most of us Reiki practitioners have a difficult time receiving.
IF: Yeah. And it took many years before me of receiving before I became attuned. I became attuned to Reiki one and Reiki 2 in 1995 for my 50th birthday. The same friend who had become a Reiki master asked if she could give me Reiki 1 and 2. And at that time, I was a massage therapist and reflexologist. I was devoted to those practices, and I really did not feel a calling to Reiki. I loved the practice, but I felt as though I had good energy in my hands; everyone said you have good energy.

My friend assured me that if I had an attunement, there was some more for me to know and experience. I didn't initially say yes to her offer. I said, "Let me meditate on it." I was a big meditator. In my meditation, what I felt and received guidance was, "Receive the gift." That's all I heard. And that was that's profound. The gift has been the gift that has continued to give. Always.

So, on my 50th birthday [I became Reiki 1], and two months later, I became Reiki 2. In 1999, four years later, a student of my Reiki master who had become a Reiki master needed someone to practice with. She said, "Can I attune you as a Reiki master teacher?" And I was like, "Sure." I hadn't planned to teach. I'm really, that was not my plan. So, I tell so many of my students, "Reiki has its way with you." Reiki called me more than I called it to me. It was divine. Reiki is my life now.

DIR: A couple of things I would like to highlight from what you said: that you were able to receive first. Often as practitioners, we want to give sessions, and we hardly receive any. And then you took the time to connect with your inner self to check if you really wanted to move forward into Reiki training.
IF: I don't know how to explain it, except that's how it was. My journey was that way. And my friend, who was my first Reiki master, no longer practices… I was the first Reiki master in Beaufort, South Carolina when I moved [here] in 2000. And that was interesting. I live on St. Helena Island, but it's part of Beaufort County... It's more rural where I live. But as I said, Reiki has its way with us. It's divine. We can't control it, as you know from practicing. Our lives are influenced nonstop by Reiki. My life is informed by Reiki.

DIR: Yeah. And that's an amazing thing, right? It happens to us that we learn Reiki because the practice calls us. But often, it isn't until we find a special teacher or book that we really grow into it.
IF: Yes. I had been teaching for 20 years before I met Frans [Stiene]. Prior to that, around a year before I met him, one of my [Reiki] master's students had seen his book somewhere, The Inner Heart of Reiki. And she said, "Oh Ifetayo, you have to have this book," and she bought it for me. I couldn't put it down. I've read it over and over. I wish I could show you my copy right now. It's so dogeared. I buy new copies and give them away, Nathalie. And I just keep my copy. But that [book] became my Bible in so many ways. I learned so much, I could feel something transforming in myself.

Then I saw an announcement from the Omega Institute that Frans would be in New York in May 2019. So, I went there, and I met him. We were chanting the precepts in Japanese… Since that time, he came to my home in St. Helena in February of 2020. He came and taught Reiki 3 - Shinpiden level at my home to 12 women. In rural South Carolina! I couldn't believe he would come. We had a wonderful time, and I have not been the same since then.

My whole practice has transformed. I teach more Reiki masters now than ever. [My daily Reiki practice has changed. Before] I gave myself Reiki every day. I said my precepts every day. Now there's a whole lot more than I do every day. I'm so grateful for him and the expansion of my life and my practice. For the capacity to reach so many more beautiful beings and share Reiki with them as I intend. My practice has the intention of bringing and supporting beautiful beings back to their true selves. [Supporting] the knowing and living from that place of light within. And that's why I teach really—and everything else is gravy.

DIR: What you describe is going from an energy modality focused on well-being and physical improvement to a spiritual practice to reconnect with our true essence with an energetic component.
IF: Absolutely. I've always been a very spiritual person. I'm a deep seeker. When Frans came, it was like that connection just filled up everything that my heart had been asking for. And so, yes, Reiki is my spiritual practice, and it is my healing practice. And it is my love practice and everything practice.

 DIR: Your name has a beautiful translation. And for me your name, it's almost like the definition of Reiki. So, I would love for you to share that translation?
IF: My name is a spiritually-given name from the Yoruba African tradition. And it is now my legal name. I changed my name legally to Ifetayo Jacqueline White. Jacqueline was my birth name, which is equally beautiful. But Ifetayo was given to me by a priest who saw me and said, "You are Ifetayo." I didn't choose the name. And the name means "love that brings joy." And of course, like with any name, the request is to grow into that energy. So, since I was 49—I think that's when Ifetayo became my name—there have been many years of growing into it. Reiki has been a big part of that for me: growing into the light that I am. Living and expressing that light, that love, that joy. That's who I am. And I'm so grateful.

I love that you have that you brought [Reiki and my name] together. [In a way] in my 49th year, the year before I became Reiki, the name was calling Reiki to bring all of the support I needed to live out this name destiny.

DIR: It's almost like pointing towards how our practice should be. I know we're obsessed with shadow work lately, but sometimes we need to let go of shadows and sit in our light.
You're bringing Reiki to rural communities, to people who didn't have access to it. Often, it seems that Reiki is a practice mostly for hipsters or people who are into the new age movements in cities versus other communities that tend to be more diverse.  When we talked previously, you mentioned something that stuck in my mind: that there is no race or color in oneness, but we incarnate the person we are to bring access to the practice to specific groups of people. Can you elaborate a bit on that?
IF: Absolutely. As I shared earlier, I am from Washington DC, and I learned about Reiki in Washington DC—a city, an urban area. I attended the unity metaphysical Christian Church at that time for 10 years. And that's where all these Reiki people were. I was also a transcendental meditator. All of this was sort of mixing up together. My church was multi-racial, but our minister was African American. And so, there were just a lot of African-American people in that congregation who were very interested in new-age at that time.

That's where I was nurtured. My first Reiki master was an African American woman. The first African American woman Reiki master in DC is a friend of mine, Gwen Mitchell, who's now in California. So, for me, [I felt there] was always many people of color practicing Reiki. I never thought so much about it. We had our own community of healers and spiritual people in DC who were African American because we were just relating to one another. But as I moved forward and I began teaching in Beaufort, South Caroline, [this changed.] South Carolina is actually a part of the Bible belt of the south. It was very interesting. Then, in 2000, I was very low-key about Reiki. There had been a lot of [bad] press around that time from the Southern Baptist and from the Catholic church about Reiki and it not being as sanctified as we know it to be. So, I didn't really speak much about being a Reiki teacher at that time, except I [when] was practicing massage. Some of the massage therapists in town knew. And my first student there in Beaufort, South Carolina, was a massage therapist from a family that has the biggest tomato business in our county. They still do. They just send out a lot of tomatoes everywhere.

I've been blessed because of how I look, Nathalie. I am not attached to any of it. This is just the divine plan that was created before I got here. For me to serve in the way that is the easiest path.  Probably, therefore, I will attract to myself many people of color who are African American, but not only them. I've taught so many people! I can't even tell you! And of all races! But in rural South Carolina, and people now are traveling to stay with me to learn. I have an Airbnb, so I have room for people. I've taught Reiki for cakes, for vegetables as an exchange. When there is an openness from anyone in my community, I want to say yes, you can be Reiki in whatever way we can make that happen.

I worked in mental health with youth for 10 years. There were teenagers that I worked with whom I attuned. Particularly a couple of young women who were pregnant and who were going to have babies. I was sharing Reiki with them, and it just made sense that they would become Reiki for their babies, for themselves, for their mental health, for their birthing experience. Oneness is so dear [to me]. It's one of my highest vibrations of me. I'm grateful that I live and that from that place of love and non-duality, and no separation to be able to serve those folks who look like me. Who feel comfortable [with me.] Because, as we know, at our level of evolution and growth, we will turn to go to people who we feel comfortable with and who we feel simpatico with. So, it's been a blessing for me.

As I shared earlier, my intention for teaching Reiki is to reawaken the truth of who we are inside of ourselves. For me, trauma healing begins inside. If we are attuned to Reiki and are carrying that Reiki energy in us, then the work has begun in healing, whatever traumas we are aware of.

DIR: This is so great because often, the communities who could benefit more from Reiki in a country where healthcare is so expensive are the ones who are less exposed to it. I believe you were requesting some grants to spread that work.

IF: Yes. I've been researching and having other research for me. I am particularly interested in grants that will support myself and other Reiki masters in attuning women of color, particularly young women. Now there are a lot more grants out to address particular challenges in the black community. And because I [am] a doula… I support a lot of women in my community who are doulas and midwives. We're all very familiar with the challenges of death rates of women of color [in childbirth] in our country, particularly in our state. We're one of the highest. So [I'm looking for] grants to work either from the doula side, or just for attuning women to become Reiki practitioners so that they can [share with] themselves, first, and then their families and their community. That's the reason why I'm actively engaged in researching funding.

DIR: Reiki can be translated as ancestral energy, and you perform a beautiful ritual with the Atlantic Ocean that has to do with that concept. Could you please share it with our listeners?
IF: I daily go to the beach, which is seven miles from my house. One day, soon after I moved to Beaufort when I was in meditation, it came to me that one of my purposes for being here is to go to the ocean and to send Reiki to the Atlantic Ocean. To the path of the slave trade from Western Africa and other parts of Africa to particularly South Carolina, which was the hub of the slave trade in America. So, every day as that is my practice. I send Reiki to that passage and to all the souls, including those folks who owned the boats and everybody involved. I send my love, my healing energy, my Reiki energy. And that's my contribution, you know? It's a calling. I don't have any other words to say it.

DIR: It's beautiful. When I was in Japan, the priest always told me, you don't sit just by yourself. You sit with all your ancestors. We are born into our personas for a reason. In my case, there is probably a lot of WWII trauma. I find it very beautiful that we can clear that energy that we carry from hundreds of years.
IF: To me, Nathalie, it's not hard, it's not that difficult, particularly if you carry Reiki. It's just another way of extending love—love is healing—and connect with our hearts. To connect to another energy, which is what trauma is. It's all energy. So we simply extend and expand the love and the Reiki from ourselves to bless whatever situations need to be blessed. So I'm grateful.

I want to go back a little bit to when you were talking about activism. Frans, to me, is a major activist in his way. He's so the inspiration. You are also in your way. Those of us who are out there, in whatever way, sharing this practice. Sharing Reiki is activism to me. I'm a child of the sixties and seventies. I was an activist and civil rights fighter. I was marching. I had a big Afro. That's my core—a big part of my spirit. This is a gift: to be able to be Reiki and to be an activist for love and oneness in the world.

 DIR: In a world where most Reiki practitioners are trained in 8-hour classes, what do you think about holding the space to healing trauma without any further training in this area? What advice would you give new Reiki practitioners interested in this area?
IF: You know, I'm a "simplist." I don't know if that's a word; I just made it up. I'm all about simplicity. About what is simple. And to me, energy is simple. Energy is basic. As I speak with my students or clients, I always bring it back to the basics—we're working with energy. And in this case, we're working with energy that has become frozen or stuck because of whatever the situation is at that time. There was fear that happened could not be metabolized, so could not be released. We don't have to program [Reiki] to address this or does that. I might speak out in public about addressing trauma, but I will work the same way with someone who comes, whatever they present. I will speak to them and give back to them the same words they gave me so that we will be in oneness and communication, but my practice is going to be the same.

I've had mental health background work and worked with women's health. As a massage therapist, there are some layers of knowledge I have about the body, about emotions, and about energy and how it shows up in us. But if you are a beginner, you don't need to have that. You want to just be in yourself and be present with whom you are with. Be in compassion with what they bring you and share Reiki. We can feel it when there is a softening. We can feel when there's not a softening. We can feel when energy has begun to move. We can be aware of the energy that's not moving. We can comfortably stay in that place and know that we are addressing whatever is being asked to be addressed without worry. And if we're interested in trauma, then there are books that we can read. There are beautiful works out there now that talk about trauma in ways that anyone can understand. We can inform ourselves that way, but it's not necessary. My belief is that we're Reiki, and we show up with Reiki. Reiki has its own intelligence, and it will do what it is here to do.

DIR: I love that: just place your hands. It's that simple. No need to analyze which chakra is off balance or to release specific trauma.  I feel we make it more complicated because we're afraid that just simple protocols are never enough.
IF: That has been a beautiful challenge, I believe, for Reiki practitioners and teachers throughout my experience with Reiki. Because of the simplicity and because we don't have to know a lot, we often feel that we are not doing enough, we're not giving enough, and we are not contributing enough. And nothing could be farther from the truth. Reiki is so profound and strong and powerful. We are contributing, and we don't have to know what has happened. We know we are one with our true selves as we sit with a person and surrender all that we are into the present moment in time. And share from our hearts and our hands. And know that as we continue and grow to own personal practices, Nathalie, we will know without a doubt, without having to have feedback, we will know that we're enough. We have given enough. And it's all good.

DIR: I always tell my students, "Keep practicing, because one day it switches, and you know it's enough." It doesn't take two weeks. For some people, it comes very fast; for others, like me, it may take years. Now I'm going to ask you another question that I ask everybody: what your biggest Reiki oops was, something that could be labeled as a "mistake" but gave you significant learning or insight into your practice. 
IF: That's a great question. For real, there are no mistakes, [But before] I was of the consciousness early on in my practice of "not enough." As massage therapists… we are moving, touching, and shaking, and whatever. And then you come to share Reiki. In the beginning, it's like, "Okay, how am I going to make sure this person feels that they have received?" I wanted to make sure they felt that they received something from me just as they felt when I gave them a massage.

It took quite a while for me to get out of my head and accept that I am one with Reiki. I am sharing Reiki, and I don't have to do Reiki. I don't have to force Reiki. I don't have to expect a certain outcome of experience from the person I shared it with. So yeah, that took a while. And I can't say to you when it shifted. I'm feeling that for that particular challenge, my practice was to continue to come in, continue to be present, and to sit as opposed to giving and doing.

I'm a big giver. That's another part of my learning: [to stop] the overboard of giving. In a lot of ways in my Reiki practice, even giving more time than was necessary. Giving more just because I wanted those people to have a certain experience.

Since meeting Frans and since really growing in my own daily practices of sitting and being present, being still, of the breathwork—all of that has shifted things enormously in the last two years. So, [I focus] my personal practice of being Reiki, being Reiki, being Reiki—and all these other pieces [or need to give more] will not be necessary. They will not even be a part of our consciousness of thoughts.

DIR: I think, honestly, this is the best advice because probably 99% of practitioners struggle exactly with that, especially when they start charging. The way I dealt with it was to do my homework every day, and I go to the session having done so, then it made it easier to let go of worry during the session. It was like, "Okay, I can only control what I can control, which is my self-practice. And if I do my self-practice and I go from a state of mind of love and compassion, all will be fine."
IF: Exactly. And those of us who practice, we get exactly what you're saying. One of the things that also shifted with me since studying and meditating with Frans and all my reading [was that he pointed to] the practice of oneness, of no separation.

Before I knew that, I got that. But in the last two years and being with COVID for a whole year really shifted [the practice for me.] The practice of there is only one of us here. There is no separation. There is no distance. There is no time. And so, this has informed my practice with people, particularly distance healing, which I never did much of before, because there were so many people in my world that I shared Reiki in person. But because of the pandemic, the distance healing requests grew.

My love of distance healing now has just expanded. The capacity to practice "no distance, no separation, no time" has given me so much joy. And [although I didn't need the feedback] everyone has shared with me that the experience of the receiver has been profound coming from that place of me sitting in that place of no distance, no separation, no time. And in my own daily practice, strengthening and supporting that. I'm in love with that. I'm in love with oneness.

DIR: I love how you still have so much joy in your practice after so many years!
IF: As I'm sitting in this space with you, I'm just realizing that [before] I was a doula, a massage therapist, a Reiki master teacher practitioner… I was doing all of that at one time. Depending on how many births I had a month, it determined how many clients I could take for Reiki. Now it's all Reiki. I do nothing else, except when folks invite me to present on some larger platforms, but [even then] Reiki is underneath it all. I might be talking about healing or birthing, but for me, Reiki is under all of it. I love this shift now. It's nothing but Reiki for me now.

I only am teaching all the time, and I share Reiki, not as much but somewhat, with folks in person and a lot at distance sessions. I mentor people who call and want to talk [about] their growth and transformation. I usually combine the hour with some distance healing Reiki too. As you spoke, Nathalie, that just dawned on me that this is all I'm doing right now. My whole life has shifted. And I am writing a book on Reiki, and one day that will complete my personal offering to the world.

DIR: I'm the first person to buy that book! Since you and Frans love each other so much, he has kindly agreed to join the conversation.
FRANS STIENE: For me, [Ifetayo], you really are my role model. I will be 55 this year, and I think, "Wow, at your age, you're still teaching, you're still are…in the zest of life, you still enjoy life so much… the beauty of life, the playfulness and laughter of life. You still have so much passion… not just for the system of Reiki, but for life itself.

That, for me, is what the system of Reiki is really. As you were discussing, we don't need to add anything to it. We don't need to invent a new system. We need to actually realize that simplicity [is powerful] and owning that simplicity. That the beauty of life can really be tasted and felt.

 IF: Absolutely, totally. I love it. And I agree so much with you. And that's what love [being] friends. We just laugh all the time. We [are] playful, and that's for me is life. And that is Reiki. That is the energy of healing, love, and joy.

DIR: Now I have a new goal. I want to like to practice with both of you together in the city! Ifetayo, before we end this interview, I want to ask if there is anything that I missed that you want to add?
IF:  I must just share that for Reiki practitioners to find a meditation practice [is] crucial—it is so necessary for our support to support ourselves and our own health as we practice and teach. Meditate, breathe, meditate. Those are the magic words.

DIVE INTO REIKI: Welcome to Dive into Reiki podcast. Today I have a very special guest, very close to my heart: Frans Stiene. I'm your host, Nathalie. I've been practicing Reiki for 15 years. I'm the author of two books: the Reiki Healing Handbook and Reiki as A Spiritual Practice. Frans is my mentor, teacher, and dear friend. He's been a significant influence of global research into the system of Reiki since the early two-thousands. His practical understanding of the Japanese influences on the system has allowed students worldwide to connect deeply with this practice. And he's the co-founder of the International House of Reiki and the Shibumi international Reiki association with Browen Logan Stiene. He has co-written some of my favorite books: the critically acclaimed Reiki Source Book, The Japanese Art of Reiki, A-Z of Reiki Pocketbook, and Your Reiki Treatment. And two very, very special books written from his practice, The Inner Hear of Reiki and Reiki Insights. But most of all, he's a fantastic human being. What I love about Frans is that he really embodies the practice 24/7 in a very joyful downward way. If you go to a class with Frans, be prepared to laugh, cry, hug. It's freaking amazing. So Frans, welcome. How are you?

FRANS STIENE: Good morning. I'm doing well. Thank you, Nathalie. Good to be here and good to be talking to you. It's exciting. I'm ready.

DIR: I have to say that [the first few years] I didn't understand Reiki practice very much. I loved it. I was very attracted to it, but it wasn't until I read your book The Japanese Art of Reiki that I was like, "Oh, that's what I was feeling. That makes sense." I got it. I think I'm still practicing Reiki because of your books and then your classes and retreats. So, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm excited because we're going to go through your journey. Still, we're going to be zero in on Reiju, also called initiations or attunements. I think you have a genuine understanding to share with everyone in the Reiki community. But let's start with the beginning. You were a party boy, and suddenly you came in contact with Reiki. Can you give me a little bit of your origin story?
FS: Yes. I was a big party person. I love dancing. I still love dancing, but I don't do it that often anymore. I suffered from a lower back problem, and I moved from Holland to India. I lived there for two years. And then I came in contact in the Himalayas with a lady who was a healer. She did something [to] me that triggered for me a really big opening and awareness [and got rid of the back pain.] I started to buy books on all sorts of spiritual practices. That was highly unusual for me! And one of them was about the system of Reiki, and I thought, "Well, that sounds interesting!" In Katmandu, Nepal, I studied Reiki 1, 2, and 3, and then for a year with Bronwen (Logan Stiene), I had a Reiki center in Darjeeling.

DIR: And how did you go from studying Reiki to teaching it? And I seem to remember you had a story that one day someone approached you like, "Hi, do you know someone teaching Reiki?" How do you feel confident enough to teach? What made you say like, "Sure, I can teach this!"
FS: Yeah, it was bizarre. We just had done our first Reiki 3 class. I've done many because I think learning never stops. This was in Katmandu. We were standing in front of Pilgrims, a really famous book store in Katmandu, just after we had done Reiki three, a training, which actually, at that time, was terrible. It was the attunement, and then you got a copy of a book, of course, and then, "Bye, see you later! Work it out yourself!" And this couple comes towards us. And, I mean, literally, in that area of Katmandu, there were thousands of tourists. For whatever reason, they picked us out and said, "Excuse me, do you know any Reiki teachers around here?" And we go, "Eh…Well, we just did a Reiki teacher class, but we have no idea. But go inside [the book shop] there is a notice board; there must be some people teaching Reiki. Then we went like, "Well, this is bizarre. How is this possible that out of all these foreigners walking around here and standing here, they picked us out? This is a sign." So we followed them back in and said, "If you give us a week, we will prepare a class. We will teach you for free, and you can become our first students." And that was it!

DIR: OMG. I would love for you to go from that moment, that first training, to the style you train now? How has it changed over the years?
FS: Well, the way I was taught first was very externalized. Everything was seen as something outside of yourself, you know? When I lived in Darjeeling for a year, I also communicated with Tibetan Buddhist teachers and practitioners. There is a very big community in Darjeeling. They were really pointing towards the inside. I started to have certain experiences, and some of these experiences I could not understand. So I went to a Tibetan practitioner. I said, "Can I explain this to you?" And he said, "Yes, OK. This is really what we're looking for in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition when you are deepening your practice. What are you practicing? Are you practicing Buddhism?" I went like, "I don't know!"
I was wondering what was I really practicing? And so, I went in 2001 for the first time to Japan; I've been quite a few times. Since 2012, I've trained with a Japanese priest. And that, for me, has changed a lot. Already, prior to that, really developing myself looking at the Japanese ideas of internalizing spiritual practice. Seeing where Mikao Usui's teachings came from. What was he practicing? When we look at these teachings of Mikao Usui—the precepts, meditation, hands-on healing, symbols and mantras, and Reiju, nowadays called the attunement or initiation—we can see that he borrowed from Japanese esoteric teachings, like Shugendo, Mikkyo, Shinto, Zen, etcetera, to create the system we practice now. So It has changed a lot for me.

DIR: I love what you're saying: going from external to internal. Some people have a lot of resistance because it's almost questioning our capacity as simple humans with issues to offer a space of healing. How can I be good enough to offer all of this from inside myself versus just being a vessel? What kind of advice will you give someone who thinks that?
FS: I think we're so focused on everything that's outside of ourselves. Also, I think it's quite challenging to go within for a lot of people. You know, if you think about Mikao Usui's teachings, and we look at the precepts, for example, they are in Japanese, "Do not anger, do not worry," where do we store this trauma of anger and worry and fear? Inside the body. Not somewhere outside, over there, but inside the body. And therefore, even when we say we are a channel, we have to be a clear channel. If I have a straw and if that's the channel, then the straw needs to have no hole, no kink, no knot; else, the channel cannot be a good channel. Even if we see it outside ourselves and think that we are a channel, we still have to purify it. And we have to go within because that's where we store our anger and worry and fear. But it's also challenging. I think a lot of people find it very difficult to face their fears and worry, and anxiety. This is why I think a lot of modern healing practices have become very externalized.

DIR: That makes complete sense. Obviously, the beginning was centered on hands-on healing. How has it evolved? What is your practice today, and how often do you change it?
FS: For me, hands-on healing, of course, is a birthright. You know, you see it's snowing [here in Holland] today. You see kids falling, and straight away, they put their hands on their knees, or mom and dad run over and put their hands on their knees. It's a birthright. It doesn't mean they all have been practicing the system of Reiki, but it is an innate ability. However, of course, we can do hands-on healing with anger, with worry, with fear, with not being grateful, not being true to our way and our being, and not being compassionate. And this sounds very simple, but actually, it's really, really deep. So if we can do hands-on healing in that space of true compassion—what is true compassion, no attachment, completely open emptiness, non-Duality, etc.—then, of course, hands-on healing would be something quite different. So for me, I see hands-on-healing as a byproduct of your spiritual practice.

DIR: For me, it takes a lifetime to get there, right? I also think sometimes we see hands-on healing like, "Oh, want to relieve the pain in my knee," or, "It didn't work because he didn't take away my headache." We forget that we are feeling calmer and happier. And that is a lot more important. So sometimes we go for this healing and fixing versus just the exploration of the self.
FS: Yeah. Mikao Usui pointed it out so clearly in the Precepts— it's all about the mind, the mind of no anger, the mind of no worry, the mind of being grateful, the mind of being true to your way and your being, the mind of being compassionate. As we all know, man, that is difficult. Shit, that is so difficult, right? Particularly at this time. So nowadays [we are into] instant classes, instant attunement/Reiju/initiation. And then we go like, "Oh yeah, but it's not working. I still feel angry. I still feel worried." Yeah, but have you sat on your butt to do your practice? Because that is where it takes place. This is, for me, so important. It's also why the Japanese way is essential if we want to become a better human being. What is a better human being? It's a human being full of compassion and kindness and love and openness.

 DIR: I was giving a podcast yesterday for martial arts talking about energy and breath. They were asking me like, "How can you feel the improvement in the breath? How can you become better in specific breathing?" I was like, "We don't have the idea of improvement in Reiki. We have the idea of going deeper and exploring." The host was looking at me like I am a madwoman, but I feel that is a significant shift in martial arts or Reiki. It's not really about fixing yourself. It's really about getting to know yourself or your true self.
So, if I could take a peek at Frans Stiene at home when no one is looking, what would I see you doing?
FS: [Laughs] Throwing snowballs!
DIR: Ha!
FS: For me at the moment, there are some very specific practices. I've been practicing with the specific instruction of my teacher in Japan, a priest, to gain of much deeper and direct experience of ultimately the Precepts. You know, the embodiment of the Precepts, embodiment of the Reiki 3 symbol and mantra, Great Bright Light, inner luminosity. And those for me are essential. So, it involves quite a lot of chanting, meditation practice, really learning to focus. I also think in our society, we are so unfocused! Why do we get angry? Why do we get worried? Because we get distracted by the past. We get distracted by the future. And we get distracted ultimately by the present moment. So the practice I'm doing is trying not to get distracted by past, present, future, which is really difficult. This is why I particularly have to practice till the end of my life because we have all a lot of shit.

 DIR: Yes. Welcome to being human. We have many times said that the core of the system is the Precepts, right? I think sometimes people see the Reiki system as very separate. They get their Reiki one and use the hands. Then they learn a symbol. It's hard to see the connection with the Precepts and with everything else. Can you elaborate on how the Precepts are the link that connects the whole system?
FS: Absolutely. For me, that's really the base. It's the foundation. I mean, you know, this idea comes to my mind that if we think [self-practice] doesn't matter, would it matter if I get hands-on healing from a junkie or the Dalai Lama? Of course, there will be a huge difference because the Dalai Lama is in this huge state of mind of Great Bright Light or kindness and compassion. And we all know that if someone is angry or depressed or worried and fearful that their body is [tense and constricted], their energy is like that. The mind is like that. So, therefore, of course, energy is not flowing. It's really simple, but it's so simple that often we don't see it because we like to make it complicated. But it's actually so simple: we [have to be] kind and compassionate—and I'm not talking about, "Oh, hi there" kind of kind, but true kindness, what is ultimately non-duality. Again, Mikao Usui is pointing that out within the mantras in Reiki 2 and Reiki 3 really, really clearly. And so that inner luminosity, your inner true self—what is that? That is the state of no anger, no worry, being grateful, being true to your way, and being compassionate. So the Precepts are an explanation of your true nature, of your true self, of that inner luminosity. And I think it's simplified too much, you know, we say, "Oh no, I'm never angry. I'm never worried. I'm compassionate." But if you are honest with yourself, then you realize that is not really the case.

 DIR: Also, there is no light without darkness.
FS: Absolutely.

DIR: What you're describing as called here in America spiritual bypassing. We are not in touch with the dark side of ourselves because it's uncomfortable. We don't want to be angry, but when we accept, it kind of washes away. If you run away from it, it becomes more insidious. I think it's lovely that Reiki gives you that platform to hold and be able to process those things.
FS: It's a little bit like this: if I would have worn this shirt a while and then wash it, of course, we see a lot of dirt coming off it. And we celebrate that because we know [that we will see] the purity of the jumper. But when that happens in our own practice, we go like, "Ooh, no, I don't want to touch it. Oh, I can see my anger, quick, let me go into Lalaland!" And therefore, meditation, mindfulness, yoga, Tai Chi, Qigong, the system of Reiki often has moved away and has become an escape instead of really dealing with your anger and worry and fear so that you can lay bare your innate compassion.

DIR: That is a big, big truth, and I think it's becoming even more so because we're teaching Reiki without any grounding techniques. Most of the training focuses on what we call the heavenly center, which is your connection to the source, to Lalaland, right? Because if you don't bring it into the body, if you don't embody it, it becomes spiritual bypassing because it's angels and happiness, and then you crash. You lose your keys, lose your job and become more emotional. So if someone feels a little bit emotional, "Lalaland-ish," and a little bit unstable after Reiki practice, what would you recommend?
FS: I was looking through the yoga sutras, and, again, even they're very clear: focus, don't get distracted by attachment, worries, fear, past, present, future. So, again, it's about being focused. Specifically, first of all, focus on the Hara, on your Dan Tien or the root and sacral chakras, for grounding and centering. Essentially in this time when there's so much stuff [in your head area], as you said, Heaven stuff, and we're not grounded. So we do this upside-down pyramid, and we go, "Weeee!" Therefore, we are so unstable. Therefore, we get quickly angry and worried, etc.

DIR: Yeah, no, I've noticed because some people are practitioners, and are offering many sessions, and then they are angry. And then they're like, "Why am I angry as a practitioner If I just study Reiki not to be angry?" It's a lack of grounding, right?
FS: It is. And this is why the essential elements are sitting on your butt and doing the meditation practice. But most of the time, we see the system of Reiki as, "Oh, you have the attunement or initiation, Reiju, or whatever you call it. You put your hands on someone, and we do hands-on healing on someone or ourselves. And most of the time, people go like this and fall asleep. In reality, they're just sleeping. They're not doing hands-on healing. And then we say, "Oh, the energy is doing it for me." We've become so superficial in it. Excuse me, but it's true. And it's really easy to check: if someone hits you on the head, do you get angry? Do you get worried? Do you get fearful? Are you reacting with compassion or not? I mean, it's a very easy checklist: the precepts, to know if and how you're doing what you practice.

DIR: The other day, I was in the subway, and we have many crazies. With the pandemic, I've become a little more nervous., This woman was screaming at me like 20 centimeters away. She had a mask that was falling, and she was screaming about love, but she was so angry. I could feel myself also getting angry. And then I got mad because I was angry. Because, yes, she was making me angry, but I had anger inside, to begin with. It was a nice check on my practice. I told myself, "I need to go and sit on my butt for a good while because I'm getting angry with this poor woman who's crazy!"
FS: This is it. This is a wonderful story. You know, if I have this cup with tea in it and someone knocks it, then tea comes out, not coffee, not Coca-Cola, nothing, you know, but tea comes. So if someone bumps me verbally or physically, what comes out? Anger or worry or love and compassion? If anger and worry come out, that means we have anger and worry inside of us. If love comes out, then it means we have love inside of us. And we can change that, you know? And so this is why we practice.

DIR: You have a very successful career. You traveled the world teaching. I wanted to ask you one question—and I'm asking this question to everyone. We always talk about growing as practitioners, but we seldom share our mistakes, our "Oops, what did I do?" I'd love for you to share one because I've learned my biggest lessons as a practitioner from my mistakes. I would love to hear yours.
FS: I think my whole career is one big mistake [laughs]. I think, you know, this is the problem… I think my biggest mistake is really that I often fall back on that ego thing. You know, the "me, poor me." "I, I, I." It's a very common thing for me. As you say, like anger, it's a really good tool to say, "Oh, Frans, you're getting distracted again with the "me" thing. There is a great called No Self, No Problem. Of course, there is a self, but if we have let go of the "I," the "me, me, me" thing, then we are OK. Again, it's in the Precepts: who gets angry? I get angry. Who gets worried? I get worried. No "I": no one home to get angry or worried. So yeah, my issue is sometimes I have very specific things that I find difficult to let go. But they are great learning tools for me as well. So, in a way, I don't see them as a mistake because when they happen, I realize, as you said, 'Oh, I need to sit more on my butt. I need to work on this." And so, therefore, they are great pointers for self-exploration.

DIR: You are a human and a Leo. So, the "I" thing is big for you! [Laughs]
FS: Meow!
DIR: Honestly, except for the photobombing every selfie taken on the street when you were in New York, I haven't seen you very much in the "I" space!
I wanted a little bit to zero in on attunements, especially with the pandemic. I've noticed that as practitioners, we don't have a deep understanding of what attunement is. For everybody, attunement, initiation, or Reiju are all the same thing—the ritual in which the teacher initiates students into Reiki practice. I've had people trying to sell me attunements for $40. I've had people calling me to get an attunement so they could sell remote Reiki sessions for a hundred dollars, but they wanted to pay me 30. And I've also had people saying like, of course, I can perform an attunement if I check my notes from three years ago.
This is not a judgment. That would have been my answer like three, four, five, six years ago. This is just the way we're training our community. Are we giving them all the information about attunements? There are very few practitioners with the depth you have because you've practiced probably like a million of them. I was very fortunate to get quite a few. Can you explain what a Reiju is? How would you define it?

FS: First, [let me explain something] because I think in the wider Reiki community, there is a misunderstanding about Reiju and attunement. They think it's two different things, but the word attunement doesn't exist in Japan. Neither the word initiation. These are English words. So in Japan, there is one word, which is Reiju. And Reiju has different rituals. They all do the same thing. Some are very simple. Some are very elaborate, and it would depend on the student and the teacher what kind of ritual you use. Some have no symbols and mantras. Some do have symbols and mantras. Again, that is not enough. Many years ago, one student said, "Frans, we can teach a monkey how to perform this ritual, but it doesn't mean they can perform a Reiju." So yeah, let's call it Reiju from now on, but remember: Reiju, attunement, and initiation—one and the same thing.
We often think it's just a physical ritual, but I can go outside here and teach this ritual to someone. They can do it in half an hour, right? It's not that difficult. That doesn't mean they can do Reiju. Traditionally Reiju is a spiritual blessing. If you translated it: spiritual blessings, a spiritual offering, spiritual giving-receiving. It means it's spiritual in nature, so if my mind is confused, full of anger, full of worry, full of fear, full of attachments. If my mind is not empty, right? Empty ness: no me, no you, completely wide open. If the physical ritual is not infused with this, it lacks the depth of it.
Traditionally [in Japan] where Reiju comes from, these rituals were only taught to people who became a priest or priestess. That means they already had a super, super long training. They were first a monk or a nun. Then they did the priest or priestess training. What was really, really intense, right? And only then were they taught these particular rituals because they knew it wasn't the physical ritual. It's your state of mind. And this is why the state of mind of Reiju you is the most important element. What is the state of mind? Emptiness, non-duality, and, ultimately, enlightenment. I've been very fortunate to have rituals like this being performed for myself by priests, priestesses. It was very, very different than anything you've ever "received."
For me, it's so potent, so clear that these rituals, their essence, are really how you've tapped into your inner luminosity. And not just a little bit. I know some people who say, "Oh, I'm one. I'm in this nondual space." Cut the crap. Really. Cut the crap. There is a Buddhist teacher who has a very easy test for you. I like him a lot. He's quite outspoken. He said, "If you keep talking about that you are in this oneness space, there is a very easy test: buy a candle, lit the candle, stick your hand in the flame and keep saying, I'm one with the flame. If you burn your hand, shut up and keep practicing." Because if you're one with the flame, fire cannot burn fire. It's very simple. But you know, we have these concepts, and we think so superficially about these. This is why we have to be brutally honest with ourselves and investigate and realize that the essence of these Reiju is ultimately non-duality, what means no giver, no receiver, nothing to give, just pure luminosity.

 DIR: I think it's interesting when you say no giver, no receiver, right? Often, when, as teachers, we perform Reiju, we feel we're enabling our students to connect more consciously with the ki. We're giving them the ability to channel Reiki. According to the lineage, the language changes. But you're talking that as a teacher, you're not a giver, and there is no receiver. So can you elaborate a little bit on that?
FS: For me? It's about realizing that you are Reiki. Mikao Usui again pointed out at this so wonderfully: that your essence is already Great Bright Light. He pointed this out in the Reiki 2 symbols and mantras and the Reiki 3 symbol and mantra. You are Kami [essence], you are Buddha. You are Great Bright Light. You are already inherently no anger, no worry, no fear, being grateful, being true to your way and your being, and being compassionate. But we've forgotten about this. We put all these layers over this beautiful, bright light. So Reiju is not that I give you light. I'm not giving you Reiki because you are Reiki already. Hopefully, during the Reiju, you can become aware that you are this luminosity already, maybe for a split second. This is why I like Mrs. Takata's translation: initiation. You will have maybe the initial experience that you are for a moment, maybe a split second, of, "Oh, here is my great bright light. Here is my no anger, no worry. Here is my compassion."
When we have that for an initial experience, we can use it as a seed, right, as a trace. Then we have to water that seed, of course. And it's very simple. Some people say, "Oh, but you'll only need one or two or five or four initiations depending on the lineage and tradition. And that's it." I don't believe in this. And it's very easy to test because the essence of the system of Reiki is the Precepts. If one initiation, Reiju, or attunement brings you into a full state of no more anger, no more worry, no more fear, etc.… Perfect! But we all know that even after 10 of those Reijus, that is definitely not the case. So it means one Reiju or one attunement, or four Reijus or four attunements are not enough.
You have to do it again and again. Again until one day, this initial experience is a full-blown experience. For the rest of your life, you're in this space of luminosity—no anger, no worry, and no fear. And even then, we have to receive more Reiju or attunements because even if I have a diamond and it's pure and clean, if I let it sit, it still attracts dust. So if I don't dust it, it becomes dusty. So again, we have to [keep practicing Reiju.] But nowadays, we are like, "No, only for only three!" And that's it for the rest of your life! Again, be honest with yourself and check for yourself. These four attunements or Reijus or initiation bring you into full space of no more anger, no more worry, no more fear, etc. Then we have to honestly say to ourselves, "No, that is not the case."

DIR: Every lineage has a very different approach. When we practice traditional Japanese style, we offer attunements in Reiki circles, which is frowned upon in some lineages. We all have different rules. But is there something you would recommend to anyone offering attunements, Western or traditional
FS: Well, again, it comes down to your own direct experience. To how deep have you laid bare your true self. That [is what] becomes essential. I often use a very simple explanation. It's a little bit like this. [Frans shows the light shining from his phone.] This is the great bright light. So if I do Reiju or even hands-healing on you and I come with my luminosity, I shine on you. Hopefully, you can find your luminosity. But if I am still in the dark, no light, because I haven't sat on my butt to do my practice, I still have a lot of anger and worry and fear, then I come to you and, of course, you might feel something. But you haven't had the possibility to find your light because my light is still covered with all this shit, right? True practice is that brightness is laid bare more and more and more and more and more. Then, of course, there is more possibility for you to find your luminosity. Sometimes we stick our luminosity in the furthest corner of our mind. So if only a weak light comes, that light is not reaching the light of the furthest corner of your mind. Does that make sense?
DIR: It makes total sense!
FS: The more I've laid bare my luminosity, my Great Bright Light, the more possibility there is for you [ to find yours during a Reiju.] But again, it always takes two to tango. So for you to "receive," [you need] to be empty, right? And this is, we often also don't know how to receive, because what does been empty mean? Empty of the self, empty of attachment, empty of worry, empty of fear, etc., etc.

DIR: Generally, I can see how sometimes when we have a very emotional or powerful Reiju, expectation can get in the way of a second one!
My next question is about Reijus related to upgrades. I want to have this podcast to present POV's and everybody will have a different POV on this. I don't want my next question to sound disrespectful to anyone. From the traditional Japanese POV, and yours specifically, what do you think of the concept of upgrades when it comes to the Reiki system?
FS: We only have to look at flower arrangement, Zen, in Japanese martial arts, all these Japanese traditions—they all talk about the same thing: non-Duality, right? And that you are the universe already. So how can I get an upgrade, right? An upgrade is dualistic. You have this, and now I get you this. And then, of course, six months later, they have to have another upgrade that probably costs a few hundred dollars. So, for me, it's a great marketing skill. [To put it] bluntly. And we fall for it because we want more upgrades. Why? We have them constantly on our phone: upgrade, next upgrade, wow! Now we have the iPhone 29, you know, X, Y Zed, and we get to buy it. Now we have an upgrade with our Reiki, and now we have Reiki Z Y Q what is even more powerful. But then we give our power away! Because we [already] are the universe. This is the most important element. What Mikao Usui is trying to tell us, and all these Japanese spiritual teachings as well. You are the universe, what means you have everything inside of you already.
DIR: In a way, it's an act of remembering.
FS: It's about remembering, yes!

DIR: What is your POV on remote a­ttunements? They're becoming a real point of dissent during the pandemic. So, I would love your honest opinion on them as well.
FS: I think this is a problem we have nowadays: that people think that [to practice] Reiki, all you have to do is have the attunement, and that's it. Now you are a Reiki 1. Now you're Reiki 2. Now a Reiki 3. They often think that the Reiki attunement makes you into a Reiki 1 [practitioner,] or makes you into a Reiki 2 or a Reiki 3. And we don't have to practice. "No, the energy is intelligent. It just flows wherever it's needed." We have simplified it so much, but if we think about it, like really, really clearly think about it, then ultimately we come to the conclusion that it doesn't make any sense at all. So, of course, healing, Reiju, we can go into that space beyond time, distance, non-duality. But if we are really honest, then that is very difficult.
Again, you can do the candle test. Do you burn yourself or not? So real non-duality is not easily experienced. And therefore also distance attunements or Reiju is not always [easy to experience.] we might say, "Of course it works!" Of course, we feel something. If I go, "Oh yeah, here it is. Yes, no, no. Now it's coming." Of course, something is taking place, but to learn the system of Reiki, we have to have not just the Reiju. We have to understand the Precepts. We have to understand the symbols and mantras. We have to understand hands-on healing. We have to understand the meditation practices. And ultimately, that is best done in person. Great that we have These kinds of things through Zoom. But you can only see me from [the chest up on the screen.] So even in some classes online, I can switch off my camera. I might be having a coffee and not participating in meditation. And we've done half of it. This is why all the Japanese teachers like Hiroshi Doi, Hyakuten Inamoto, etc., all tell us: please do not teach Reiki 1, 2, and 3 online. They are quite against it. And because they know there is so much more to just the attunement or Reiju.

DIR: No, I love that because I think the discussion has centered more on, "Do I get an appointment online or not," versus, "Will understand I understand the system well?" I think we put too much weight on the attunement when the everyday practice is what really makes a difference. Like I got attunements, some were wonderful, but after a few days I didn't practice, the "feeling" or "energy" faded. I hear a lot of people saying that "My Reiki is gone."
FS: This is it. Absolutely. The other day I heard someone say something that you can just draw a symbol over someone, and they are protected. That's it! Very easy. And I go if you can do this, please do it to everybody! We don't need a vaccine for [the] Corona [virus] because they're protected! No more Corona in the world. Just go and stand on Trafalgar square and draw [the first Reiki symbol] on every person, and then next! And then you teach it to someone else. So you give them a quick attunement, and now they can draw the symbol over everybody else. And everybody's protected, and no one has Corona anymore. And they go, "What? Eh? No, no, it doesn't work like that!" Yes, but you told me that you are protected when you draw this symbol on yourself or over someone. So, we have not just to be a parrot and repeat something. We have to think about it. And this is the most important thing. How can we think about it? [Sitting] on our butt and calming our mind so that we see things clearly.

DIR: We talk a lot about the concept of protection in Reiki, especially in Western lineages, but these probably represent 80-to-90% practitioners, at least in the United States. I do Reiju as a practice, not only a ritual, and one day it hit me: how can I be completely open If I'm protecting myself? Is protection coming from a place of worry which is not in alignment with the Precepts? Can you elaborate a little bit on the concept of protection within the system of Reiki?
FS: Well, I think it's generally in everything. The idea we have to ask ourselves is, why do you want to protect yourself? Right? And then we come to a conclusion, [that is out of] fear and worry. Fear, or worry of the self, right? Of the "I." "I" might pick something up. Now "I" have your issues. So it's all about the "I" again. When we soften that "I": no self, no problem, right? Therefore, [we need to practice] wide open. And this often is seen as being spacious, like space: wide open. We cannot damage space whatsoever. I can get a knife, I can cut here, but space will not be damaged. We need to understand that our true mind is like space. And again, Mikao Usui pointed this out very clearly in his teachings with practices like Joshin Kokyu Ho and the symbols and mantras in Reiki 2 and 3.

DIR: You've been practicing Reiki for many years. How do you keep your practice fresh and juicy? What is your goal for the next few years?
FS: I've never been really goal orientated at all— in work or life. It doesn't interest me. I'm just doing what I'm doing. An old friend who lives in Haarlem, where I live now, [asked me] "Oh, Frans, you'll be doing this for the rest of your life?" And I said, "If I don't like it anymore, I'll do something else, go and work at the supermarket or whatever." He goes, "Really?" I said, "Yeah, else I will do my students a disservice." I'm not very goal orientated. I'm just enjoying the moment as much as I can. It's not always easy. For me, the practice, again, is just being as much as possible in that space of non-attachment and beginner's mind.
When we have a goal, we're also holding on very tight: I want this. When we hold tight, nothing can move. So we have to practice with open hands. Then everything else stays juicy. This is not only in Reiki's system but [it's also in life.]. This is why practicing the system of Reiki is how we practice life. Right? If I hold my relationship like this [Frans closes his fist], then it will be suffocated. If I hold my work life like [Frans closes his fist again], suffocation. So, to keep it fresh, we have to hold it in an open hand, right? Without anger and worry and fear. It's very tricky to do and no attachment. Because if today, I sit and go, "Oh man, this is a really good meditation." And tomorrow I practice, and I go, "It's not so good." Why do I think it's not so good? Because I compare it to yesterday's meditation.
If we can stop comparing: problem solved. But this is the hardest part: to stop comparing. We can see this within the Precepts. Often people say, "Oh, but the precepts don't have the word comparing in it." No, not really? And they go, no, there's "no anger, no worry, no fear." But if you look deep within the Precepts, of course, you come to the word comparing. Not in written form, but it's hidden in the inner meaning of the Precepts. Why do we worry? Why do we get angry? We come again to comparing. And so if we can stop or soften out comparing, then our practice [and] life stay juicy.

DIR: Your practice is very joyful. That has been an inspiration for me. I only teach if I will enjoy it. Whenever it starts to feel like a chore, then I take a break.
FS: It's tricky [when] people start to practice Reiki to earn a living. I don't think it's a good thing. We [should] practice to have a direct experience of our great luminosity, of our inner luminosity. Then we can share that as a "living" or earn some money. Dogen, a Zen master, and I think I'm paraphrasing here, said: "within food and clothing, there is no enlightenment, but within enlightenment, there is food and clothing." And you know, for me, this is so important. We have to check also as Reiki teachers and practitioners what our motivation is?

DIR: Many of us are struggling to make a living, especially with the pandemic. Often when we learn Reiki 2, we want to turn it into our business because we enjoy it so much. But it's not easy to set up a business, and we are not well trained as entrepreneurs. And then, to make money, we start sacrificing or just changing our practice. And yet, the most successful Reiki practitioners are people who are living the Precepts. OK, and some people who are terrific marketing people as well! In my case, I'm grateful to freelance as a writer because it allows me to live my practice as I want to. Sometimes, however, I worry about practitioners just finishing a certification of a few hours thinking they are ready for professional practice because a paper says so.
FS: Yeah. Then we come back to integrity ultimately, right? Being honest. But we live in such an instant gratification [society]: quick, quick, quick; now I am a Reiki "master."

DIR: We have all been through that! I struggled to establish a daily practice, but this makes me appreciate a lot more because now I have a more profound practice. It's something one doesn't want to sacrifice that easily!
FS: Absolutely. This is why I like going to my teacher in Japan. A) he presses buttons. He's not taking any prisoners. He's checking to see; do I get angry? Do I get worried? Do I get fearful? Etc. He's keeping tabs on how I practice, the way I teach, and the way I behave. [Japanese priests] are very dedicated. I mean, [we're talking] about practicing from like four in the morning, till 11 at night for a week and a half or three weeks. Making sure you have as many direct experiences of your great bright line as possible.

DIR: Do you ever get angry?
FS: [Laughs.] I do get angry sometimes. But I think when I'm getting angry, you don't want to be in my neighborhood. I can't remember the last day that I got really angry. It was a long, long time ago. But then I have this; I don't know. I'm a Leo. And I feel like there's this black coming off my eyes, and I could bite someone's head off. I rarely have that kind of anger. It happened, of course, in the past. But I can't remember the exact date anymore—it was a long time ago!

DIR: I want my head to stay on my neck, so I hope I never see you angry! For those who want to reach you, where can they find you, Frans?
FS: They can find me on my website, www.IHReiki.com, or Facebook under Frans Stiene, or the International House of Reiki.

DIR: There are no words to express my gratitude for this podcast for just being the bright light that you are. FS: Always great to hang out with you and practice together. Yeah, I think this is important to laugh and have fun and do great things!

How does life a Frans Stiene make? Was it a case of nature versus nurture or a delicate combination of both. Did he Reiju people from his pram? Photo-bomb selfies before selfies were invented? Drive his parents nuts saying that, since they were all one, the fact that he ate all the croissants was irrelevant because, in a way, he was them? 

To find out, I decided to go back to the original source. No, not the Universe. Mrs. Stiene, his mom, who from now on will be called Eukie (short for Eucalypta, a cartoon character with whom she shares a joyful, slightly cackly laugh and big hands). 

But first, I have to confess two things: number one, I fell in love with Eukie as soon as she made fun of Frans right at the start of the interview. Until now, only Alexa, my AI-assistant, had bested him. Two, Eukie is not the stereotype of the elderly, sweet mom. If you have seen Frans on a rampage of funny—and sometimes very sexual jokes—, you have a better idea of Eukie than imagining her as a sweet lady crocheting doilies. 

Me: How was Frans as a baby? 

Eukie: He cried a lot.

Me: What?!? 

Eukie: Yes. Then he became very sweet. Cuddles would always calm him down.

Note to hosts based on personal experience: you may want to trade cuddles for croissants if you are into boundaries or are afraid the neighbors will think you are having an affair.

Eukie: He was a very handsome baby. I was pushing the pram, and this woman stops and looks first at the pram, then at me, then back at the pram, and says: “You must have had a very good looking husband.” 

Note: Eukie laughs like it’s the best joke in the world. I would have slapped the woman. I realize I have a long way to go in my Reiki journey. 

Me: So people were already falling in love with Frans?

Eukie: Oh, yes! I used to tell him, “You must have a ‘Golden Manhood’ because you have so many women!”

Note: As Eukie said this, I started laughing like a madwoman. In part, because she didn’t use the polite term ‘manhood.’ In part because Frans blushed as I had never seen him do so before. But mostly because the question of nature versus nurture was a mystery no longer. Frans and his mom are basically twin souls. The one difference? She doesn’t blush. 

Me: When Frans was young, did you imagine he would become a meditation and Reiki teacher.

Eukie: [Laughs, and laughs… and laughs.] No way. He drank so much! I worked as a midwife. Sometimes I would leave the house at six or seven in the morning and see him coming back from his parties totally wasted. Once some friends brought him back home, and I got there just in time to stop him from getting sick in my good cooking pot. I gave him an old bucket instead! 

But he was very honest. When he said he didn’t do something, I knew he hadn’t. We talked about everything: drugs, sex, relationships, etc. 

And he was very caring. So much so, I thought he would become a nurse. 

Me: Well, he kind of is. He’s just nursing the lot of us in a different way. What has not changed in Frans in all these years?

Eukie: He is the same joyful, playful person. 

Me: What has changed?

Eukie: He just has to look at a mirror.

Ouch. But hey, they both laugh. So do I. I’m getting used to the Dutch directness. Eukie goes on about some pranks and naughty behaviors of Frans. But these were eclipsed by Frans telling a story about Eukie herself. When Eukie was in her early twenties, she and her sister took their mom for a walk through Haarlem’s red-light district. Eukie knocked on the window where sex workers exhibited their charms, waved, and then ran away. Classic Frans! One scary thought came to me. It’s already an “experience” to host Frans. What would it be like to host both Frans… and his mom. With my mind now focused on survival, I asked Eukie one last question.

Me: What is your advice for the kind, quiet people hosting your son all over the world?

Eukie: Just let him talk and do his thing.

Wise, very wise. May this be the precept that guides Frans’ host actions in years to come. May he talk and do his thing, bringing us joy, inspiration, and invaluable insights. Meanwhile, I have to go. I’m preparing the paperwork to request my adoption by Eukie.

Frans & Eukie.