DIVE INTO REIKI: Welcome to Dive into Reiki podcast. Today I have a very special guest, very close to my heart: Frans Stiene. I'm your host, Nathalie. I've been practicing Reiki for 15 years. I'm the author of two books: the Reiki Healing Handbook and Reiki as A Spiritual Practice. Frans is my mentor, teacher, and dear friend. He's been a significant influence of global research into the system of Reiki since the early two-thousands. His practical understanding of the Japanese influences on the system has allowed students worldwide to connect deeply with this practice. And he's the co-founder of the International House of Reiki and the Shibumi international Reiki association with Browen Logan Stiene. He has co-written some of my favorite books: the critically acclaimed Reiki Source Book, The Japanese Art of Reiki, A-Z of Reiki Pocketbook, and Your Reiki Treatment. And two very, very special books written from his practice, The Inner Hear of Reiki and Reiki Insights. But most of all, he's a fantastic human being. What I love about Frans is that he really embodies the practice 24/7 in a very joyful downward way. If you go to a class with Frans, be prepared to laugh, cry, hug. It's freaking amazing. So Frans, welcome. How are you?

FRANS STIENE: Good morning. I'm doing well. Thank you, Nathalie. Good to be here and good to be talking to you. It's exciting. I'm ready.

DIR: I have to say that [the first few years] I didn't understand Reiki practice very much. I loved it. I was very attracted to it, but it wasn't until I read your book The Japanese Art of Reiki that I was like, "Oh, that's what I was feeling. That makes sense." I got it. I think I'm still practicing Reiki because of your books and then your classes and retreats. So, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm excited because we're going to go through your journey. Still, we're going to be zero in on Reiju, also called initiations or attunements. I think you have a genuine understanding to share with everyone in the Reiki community. But let's start with the beginning. You were a party boy, and suddenly you came in contact with Reiki. Can you give me a little bit of your origin story?
FS: Yes. I was a big party person. I love dancing. I still love dancing, but I don't do it that often anymore. I suffered from a lower back problem, and I moved from Holland to India. I lived there for two years. And then I came in contact in the Himalayas with a lady who was a healer. She did something [to] me that triggered for me a really big opening and awareness [and got rid of the back pain.] I started to buy books on all sorts of spiritual practices. That was highly unusual for me! And one of them was about the system of Reiki, and I thought, "Well, that sounds interesting!" In Katmandu, Nepal, I studied Reiki 1, 2, and 3, and then for a year with Bronwen (Logan Stiene), I had a Reiki center in Darjeeling.

DIR: And how did you go from studying Reiki to teaching it? And I seem to remember you had a story that one day someone approached you like, "Hi, do you know someone teaching Reiki?" How do you feel confident enough to teach? What made you say like, "Sure, I can teach this!"
FS: Yeah, it was bizarre. We just had done our first Reiki 3 class. I've done many because I think learning never stops. This was in Katmandu. We were standing in front of Pilgrims, a really famous book store in Katmandu, just after we had done Reiki three, a training, which actually, at that time, was terrible. It was the attunement, and then you got a copy of a book, of course, and then, "Bye, see you later! Work it out yourself!" And this couple comes towards us. And, I mean, literally, in that area of Katmandu, there were thousands of tourists. For whatever reason, they picked us out and said, "Excuse me, do you know any Reiki teachers around here?" And we go, "Eh…Well, we just did a Reiki teacher class, but we have no idea. But go inside [the book shop] there is a notice board; there must be some people teaching Reiki. Then we went like, "Well, this is bizarre. How is this possible that out of all these foreigners walking around here and standing here, they picked us out? This is a sign." So we followed them back in and said, "If you give us a week, we will prepare a class. We will teach you for free, and you can become our first students." And that was it!

DIR: OMG. I would love for you to go from that moment, that first training, to the style you train now? How has it changed over the years?
FS: Well, the way I was taught first was very externalized. Everything was seen as something outside of yourself, you know? When I lived in Darjeeling for a year, I also communicated with Tibetan Buddhist teachers and practitioners. There is a very big community in Darjeeling. They were really pointing towards the inside. I started to have certain experiences, and some of these experiences I could not understand. So I went to a Tibetan practitioner. I said, "Can I explain this to you?" And he said, "Yes, OK. This is really what we're looking for in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition when you are deepening your practice. What are you practicing? Are you practicing Buddhism?" I went like, "I don't know!"
I was wondering what was I really practicing? And so, I went in 2001 for the first time to Japan; I've been quite a few times. Since 2012, I've trained with a Japanese priest. And that, for me, has changed a lot. Already, prior to that, really developing myself looking at the Japanese ideas of internalizing spiritual practice. Seeing where Mikao Usui's teachings came from. What was he practicing? When we look at these teachings of Mikao Usui—the precepts, meditation, hands-on healing, symbols and mantras, and Reiju, nowadays called the attunement or initiation—we can see that he borrowed from Japanese esoteric teachings, like Shugendo, Mikkyo, Shinto, Zen, etcetera, to create the system we practice now. So It has changed a lot for me.

DIR: I love what you're saying: going from external to internal. Some people have a lot of resistance because it's almost questioning our capacity as simple humans with issues to offer a space of healing. How can I be good enough to offer all of this from inside myself versus just being a vessel? What kind of advice will you give someone who thinks that?
FS: I think we're so focused on everything that's outside of ourselves. Also, I think it's quite challenging to go within for a lot of people. You know, if you think about Mikao Usui's teachings, and we look at the precepts, for example, they are in Japanese, "Do not anger, do not worry," where do we store this trauma of anger and worry and fear? Inside the body. Not somewhere outside, over there, but inside the body. And therefore, even when we say we are a channel, we have to be a clear channel. If I have a straw and if that's the channel, then the straw needs to have no hole, no kink, no knot; else, the channel cannot be a good channel. Even if we see it outside ourselves and think that we are a channel, we still have to purify it. And we have to go within because that's where we store our anger and worry and fear. But it's also challenging. I think a lot of people find it very difficult to face their fears and worry, and anxiety. This is why I think a lot of modern healing practices have become very externalized.

DIR: That makes complete sense. Obviously, the beginning was centered on hands-on healing. How has it evolved? What is your practice today, and how often do you change it?
FS: For me, hands-on healing, of course, is a birthright. You know, you see it's snowing [here in Holland] today. You see kids falling, and straight away, they put their hands on their knees, or mom and dad run over and put their hands on their knees. It's a birthright. It doesn't mean they all have been practicing the system of Reiki, but it is an innate ability. However, of course, we can do hands-on healing with anger, with worry, with fear, with not being grateful, not being true to our way and our being, and not being compassionate. And this sounds very simple, but actually, it's really, really deep. So if we can do hands-on healing in that space of true compassion—what is true compassion, no attachment, completely open emptiness, non-Duality, etc.—then, of course, hands-on healing would be something quite different. So for me, I see hands-on-healing as a byproduct of your spiritual practice.

DIR: For me, it takes a lifetime to get there, right? I also think sometimes we see hands-on healing like, "Oh, want to relieve the pain in my knee," or, "It didn't work because he didn't take away my headache." We forget that we are feeling calmer and happier. And that is a lot more important. So sometimes we go for this healing and fixing versus just the exploration of the self.
FS: Yeah. Mikao Usui pointed it out so clearly in the Precepts— it's all about the mind, the mind of no anger, the mind of no worry, the mind of being grateful, the mind of being true to your way and your being, the mind of being compassionate. As we all know, man, that is difficult. Shit, that is so difficult, right? Particularly at this time. So nowadays [we are into] instant classes, instant attunement/Reiju/initiation. And then we go like, "Oh yeah, but it's not working. I still feel angry. I still feel worried." Yeah, but have you sat on your butt to do your practice? Because that is where it takes place. This is, for me, so important. It's also why the Japanese way is essential if we want to become a better human being. What is a better human being? It's a human being full of compassion and kindness and love and openness.

 DIR: I was giving a podcast yesterday for martial arts talking about energy and breath. They were asking me like, "How can you feel the improvement in the breath? How can you become better in specific breathing?" I was like, "We don't have the idea of improvement in Reiki. We have the idea of going deeper and exploring." The host was looking at me like I am a madwoman, but I feel that is a significant shift in martial arts or Reiki. It's not really about fixing yourself. It's really about getting to know yourself or your true self.
So, if I could take a peek at Frans Stiene at home when no one is looking, what would I see you doing?
FS: [Laughs] Throwing snowballs!
DIR: Ha!
FS: For me at the moment, there are some very specific practices. I've been practicing with the specific instruction of my teacher in Japan, a priest, to gain of much deeper and direct experience of ultimately the Precepts. You know, the embodiment of the Precepts, embodiment of the Reiki 3 symbol and mantra, Great Bright Light, inner luminosity. And those for me are essential. So, it involves quite a lot of chanting, meditation practice, really learning to focus. I also think in our society, we are so unfocused! Why do we get angry? Why do we get worried? Because we get distracted by the past. We get distracted by the future. And we get distracted ultimately by the present moment. So the practice I'm doing is trying not to get distracted by past, present, future, which is really difficult. This is why I particularly have to practice till the end of my life because we have all a lot of shit.

 DIR: Yes. Welcome to being human. We have many times said that the core of the system is the Precepts, right? I think sometimes people see the Reiki system as very separate. They get their Reiki one and use the hands. Then they learn a symbol. It's hard to see the connection with the Precepts and with everything else. Can you elaborate on how the Precepts are the link that connects the whole system?
FS: Absolutely. For me, that's really the base. It's the foundation. I mean, you know, this idea comes to my mind that if we think [self-practice] doesn't matter, would it matter if I get hands-on healing from a junkie or the Dalai Lama? Of course, there will be a huge difference because the Dalai Lama is in this huge state of mind of Great Bright Light or kindness and compassion. And we all know that if someone is angry or depressed or worried and fearful that their body is [tense and constricted], their energy is like that. The mind is like that. So, therefore, of course, energy is not flowing. It's really simple, but it's so simple that often we don't see it because we like to make it complicated. But it's actually so simple: we [have to be] kind and compassionate—and I'm not talking about, "Oh, hi there" kind of kind, but true kindness, what is ultimately non-duality. Again, Mikao Usui is pointing that out within the mantras in Reiki 2 and Reiki 3 really, really clearly. And so that inner luminosity, your inner true self—what is that? That is the state of no anger, no worry, being grateful, being true to your way, and being compassionate. So the Precepts are an explanation of your true nature, of your true self, of that inner luminosity. And I think it's simplified too much, you know, we say, "Oh no, I'm never angry. I'm never worried. I'm compassionate." But if you are honest with yourself, then you realize that is not really the case.

 DIR: Also, there is no light without darkness.
FS: Absolutely.

DIR: What you're describing as called here in America spiritual bypassing. We are not in touch with the dark side of ourselves because it's uncomfortable. We don't want to be angry, but when we accept, it kind of washes away. If you run away from it, it becomes more insidious. I think it's lovely that Reiki gives you that platform to hold and be able to process those things.
FS: It's a little bit like this: if I would have worn this shirt a while and then wash it, of course, we see a lot of dirt coming off it. And we celebrate that because we know [that we will see] the purity of the jumper. But when that happens in our own practice, we go like, "Ooh, no, I don't want to touch it. Oh, I can see my anger, quick, let me go into Lalaland!" And therefore, meditation, mindfulness, yoga, Tai Chi, Qigong, the system of Reiki often has moved away and has become an escape instead of really dealing with your anger and worry and fear so that you can lay bare your innate compassion.

DIR: That is a big, big truth, and I think it's becoming even more so because we're teaching Reiki without any grounding techniques. Most of the training focuses on what we call the heavenly center, which is your connection to the source, to Lalaland, right? Because if you don't bring it into the body, if you don't embody it, it becomes spiritual bypassing because it's angels and happiness, and then you crash. You lose your keys, lose your job and become more emotional. So if someone feels a little bit emotional, "Lalaland-ish," and a little bit unstable after Reiki practice, what would you recommend?
FS: I was looking through the yoga sutras, and, again, even they're very clear: focus, don't get distracted by attachment, worries, fear, past, present, future. So, again, it's about being focused. Specifically, first of all, focus on the Hara, on your Dan Tien or the root and sacral chakras, for grounding and centering. Essentially in this time when there's so much stuff [in your head area], as you said, Heaven stuff, and we're not grounded. So we do this upside-down pyramid, and we go, "Weeee!" Therefore, we are so unstable. Therefore, we get quickly angry and worried, etc.

DIR: Yeah, no, I've noticed because some people are practitioners, and are offering many sessions, and then they are angry. And then they're like, "Why am I angry as a practitioner If I just study Reiki not to be angry?" It's a lack of grounding, right?
FS: It is. And this is why the essential elements are sitting on your butt and doing the meditation practice. But most of the time, we see the system of Reiki as, "Oh, you have the attunement or initiation, Reiju, or whatever you call it. You put your hands on someone, and we do hands-on healing on someone or ourselves. And most of the time, people go like this and fall asleep. In reality, they're just sleeping. They're not doing hands-on healing. And then we say, "Oh, the energy is doing it for me." We've become so superficial in it. Excuse me, but it's true. And it's really easy to check: if someone hits you on the head, do you get angry? Do you get worried? Do you get fearful? Are you reacting with compassion or not? I mean, it's a very easy checklist: the precepts, to know if and how you're doing what you practice.

DIR: The other day, I was in the subway, and we have many crazies. With the pandemic, I've become a little more nervous., This woman was screaming at me like 20 centimeters away. She had a mask that was falling, and she was screaming about love, but she was so angry. I could feel myself also getting angry. And then I got mad because I was angry. Because, yes, she was making me angry, but I had anger inside, to begin with. It was a nice check on my practice. I told myself, "I need to go and sit on my butt for a good while because I'm getting angry with this poor woman who's crazy!"
FS: This is it. This is a wonderful story. You know, if I have this cup with tea in it and someone knocks it, then tea comes out, not coffee, not Coca-Cola, nothing, you know, but tea comes. So if someone bumps me verbally or physically, what comes out? Anger or worry or love and compassion? If anger and worry come out, that means we have anger and worry inside of us. If love comes out, then it means we have love inside of us. And we can change that, you know? And so this is why we practice.

DIR: You have a very successful career. You traveled the world teaching. I wanted to ask you one question—and I'm asking this question to everyone. We always talk about growing as practitioners, but we seldom share our mistakes, our "Oops, what did I do?" I'd love for you to share one because I've learned my biggest lessons as a practitioner from my mistakes. I would love to hear yours.
FS: I think my whole career is one big mistake [laughs]. I think, you know, this is the problem… I think my biggest mistake is really that I often fall back on that ego thing. You know, the "me, poor me." "I, I, I." It's a very common thing for me. As you say, like anger, it's a really good tool to say, "Oh, Frans, you're getting distracted again with the "me" thing. There is a great called No Self, No Problem. Of course, there is a self, but if we have let go of the "I," the "me, me, me" thing, then we are OK. Again, it's in the Precepts: who gets angry? I get angry. Who gets worried? I get worried. No "I": no one home to get angry or worried. So yeah, my issue is sometimes I have very specific things that I find difficult to let go. But they are great learning tools for me as well. So, in a way, I don't see them as a mistake because when they happen, I realize, as you said, 'Oh, I need to sit more on my butt. I need to work on this." And so, therefore, they are great pointers for self-exploration.

DIR: You are a human and a Leo. So, the "I" thing is big for you! [Laughs]
FS: Meow!
DIR: Honestly, except for the photobombing every selfie taken on the street when you were in New York, I haven't seen you very much in the "I" space!
I wanted a little bit to zero in on attunements, especially with the pandemic. I've noticed that as practitioners, we don't have a deep understanding of what attunement is. For everybody, attunement, initiation, or Reiju are all the same thing—the ritual in which the teacher initiates students into Reiki practice. I've had people trying to sell me attunements for $40. I've had people calling me to get an attunement so they could sell remote Reiki sessions for a hundred dollars, but they wanted to pay me 30. And I've also had people saying like, of course, I can perform an attunement if I check my notes from three years ago.
This is not a judgment. That would have been my answer like three, four, five, six years ago. This is just the way we're training our community. Are we giving them all the information about attunements? There are very few practitioners with the depth you have because you've practiced probably like a million of them. I was very fortunate to get quite a few. Can you explain what a Reiju is? How would you define it?

FS: First, [let me explain something] because I think in the wider Reiki community, there is a misunderstanding about Reiju and attunement. They think it's two different things, but the word attunement doesn't exist in Japan. Neither the word initiation. These are English words. So in Japan, there is one word, which is Reiju. And Reiju has different rituals. They all do the same thing. Some are very simple. Some are very elaborate, and it would depend on the student and the teacher what kind of ritual you use. Some have no symbols and mantras. Some do have symbols and mantras. Again, that is not enough. Many years ago, one student said, "Frans, we can teach a monkey how to perform this ritual, but it doesn't mean they can perform a Reiju." So yeah, let's call it Reiju from now on, but remember: Reiju, attunement, and initiation—one and the same thing.
We often think it's just a physical ritual, but I can go outside here and teach this ritual to someone. They can do it in half an hour, right? It's not that difficult. That doesn't mean they can do Reiju. Traditionally Reiju is a spiritual blessing. If you translated it: spiritual blessings, a spiritual offering, spiritual giving-receiving. It means it's spiritual in nature, so if my mind is confused, full of anger, full of worry, full of fear, full of attachments. If my mind is not empty, right? Empty ness: no me, no you, completely wide open. If the physical ritual is not infused with this, it lacks the depth of it.
Traditionally [in Japan] where Reiju comes from, these rituals were only taught to people who became a priest or priestess. That means they already had a super, super long training. They were first a monk or a nun. Then they did the priest or priestess training. What was really, really intense, right? And only then were they taught these particular rituals because they knew it wasn't the physical ritual. It's your state of mind. And this is why the state of mind of Reiju you is the most important element. What is the state of mind? Emptiness, non-duality, and, ultimately, enlightenment. I've been very fortunate to have rituals like this being performed for myself by priests, priestesses. It was very, very different than anything you've ever "received."
For me, it's so potent, so clear that these rituals, their essence, are really how you've tapped into your inner luminosity. And not just a little bit. I know some people who say, "Oh, I'm one. I'm in this nondual space." Cut the crap. Really. Cut the crap. There is a Buddhist teacher who has a very easy test for you. I like him a lot. He's quite outspoken. He said, "If you keep talking about that you are in this oneness space, there is a very easy test: buy a candle, lit the candle, stick your hand in the flame and keep saying, I'm one with the flame. If you burn your hand, shut up and keep practicing." Because if you're one with the flame, fire cannot burn fire. It's very simple. But you know, we have these concepts, and we think so superficially about these. This is why we have to be brutally honest with ourselves and investigate and realize that the essence of these Reiju is ultimately non-duality, what means no giver, no receiver, nothing to give, just pure luminosity.

 DIR: I think it's interesting when you say no giver, no receiver, right? Often, when, as teachers, we perform Reiju, we feel we're enabling our students to connect more consciously with the ki. We're giving them the ability to channel Reiki. According to the lineage, the language changes. But you're talking that as a teacher, you're not a giver, and there is no receiver. So can you elaborate a little bit on that?
FS: For me? It's about realizing that you are Reiki. Mikao Usui again pointed out at this so wonderfully: that your essence is already Great Bright Light. He pointed this out in the Reiki 2 symbols and mantras and the Reiki 3 symbol and mantra. You are Kami [essence], you are Buddha. You are Great Bright Light. You are already inherently no anger, no worry, no fear, being grateful, being true to your way and your being, and being compassionate. But we've forgotten about this. We put all these layers over this beautiful, bright light. So Reiju is not that I give you light. I'm not giving you Reiki because you are Reiki already. Hopefully, during the Reiju, you can become aware that you are this luminosity already, maybe for a split second. This is why I like Mrs. Takata's translation: initiation. You will have maybe the initial experience that you are for a moment, maybe a split second, of, "Oh, here is my great bright light. Here is my no anger, no worry. Here is my compassion."
When we have that for an initial experience, we can use it as a seed, right, as a trace. Then we have to water that seed, of course. And it's very simple. Some people say, "Oh, but you'll only need one or two or five or four initiations depending on the lineage and tradition. And that's it." I don't believe in this. And it's very easy to test because the essence of the system of Reiki is the Precepts. If one initiation, Reiju, or attunement brings you into a full state of no more anger, no more worry, no more fear, etc.… Perfect! But we all know that even after 10 of those Reijus, that is definitely not the case. So it means one Reiju or one attunement, or four Reijus or four attunements are not enough.
You have to do it again and again. Again until one day, this initial experience is a full-blown experience. For the rest of your life, you're in this space of luminosity—no anger, no worry, and no fear. And even then, we have to receive more Reiju or attunements because even if I have a diamond and it's pure and clean, if I let it sit, it still attracts dust. So if I don't dust it, it becomes dusty. So again, we have to [keep practicing Reiju.] But nowadays, we are like, "No, only for only three!" And that's it for the rest of your life! Again, be honest with yourself and check for yourself. These four attunements or Reijus or initiation bring you into full space of no more anger, no more worry, no more fear, etc. Then we have to honestly say to ourselves, "No, that is not the case."

DIR: Every lineage has a very different approach. When we practice traditional Japanese style, we offer attunements in Reiki circles, which is frowned upon in some lineages. We all have different rules. But is there something you would recommend to anyone offering attunements, Western or traditional
FS: Well, again, it comes down to your own direct experience. To how deep have you laid bare your true self. That [is what] becomes essential. I often use a very simple explanation. It's a little bit like this. [Frans shows the light shining from his phone.] This is the great bright light. So if I do Reiju or even hands-healing on you and I come with my luminosity, I shine on you. Hopefully, you can find your luminosity. But if I am still in the dark, no light, because I haven't sat on my butt to do my practice, I still have a lot of anger and worry and fear, then I come to you and, of course, you might feel something. But you haven't had the possibility to find your light because my light is still covered with all this shit, right? True practice is that brightness is laid bare more and more and more and more and more. Then, of course, there is more possibility for you to find your luminosity. Sometimes we stick our luminosity in the furthest corner of our mind. So if only a weak light comes, that light is not reaching the light of the furthest corner of your mind. Does that make sense?
DIR: It makes total sense!
FS: The more I've laid bare my luminosity, my Great Bright Light, the more possibility there is for you [ to find yours during a Reiju.] But again, it always takes two to tango. So for you to "receive," [you need] to be empty, right? And this is, we often also don't know how to receive, because what does been empty mean? Empty of the self, empty of attachment, empty of worry, empty of fear, etc., etc.

DIR: Generally, I can see how sometimes when we have a very emotional or powerful Reiju, expectation can get in the way of a second one!
My next question is about Reijus related to upgrades. I want to have this podcast to present POV's and everybody will have a different POV on this. I don't want my next question to sound disrespectful to anyone. From the traditional Japanese POV, and yours specifically, what do you think of the concept of upgrades when it comes to the Reiki system?
FS: We only have to look at flower arrangement, Zen, in Japanese martial arts, all these Japanese traditions—they all talk about the same thing: non-Duality, right? And that you are the universe already. So how can I get an upgrade, right? An upgrade is dualistic. You have this, and now I get you this. And then, of course, six months later, they have to have another upgrade that probably costs a few hundred dollars. So, for me, it's a great marketing skill. [To put it] bluntly. And we fall for it because we want more upgrades. Why? We have them constantly on our phone: upgrade, next upgrade, wow! Now we have the iPhone 29, you know, X, Y Zed, and we get to buy it. Now we have an upgrade with our Reiki, and now we have Reiki Z Y Q what is even more powerful. But then we give our power away! Because we [already] are the universe. This is the most important element. What Mikao Usui is trying to tell us, and all these Japanese spiritual teachings as well. You are the universe, what means you have everything inside of you already.
DIR: In a way, it's an act of remembering.
FS: It's about remembering, yes!

DIR: What is your POV on remote a­ttunements? They're becoming a real point of dissent during the pandemic. So, I would love your honest opinion on them as well.
FS: I think this is a problem we have nowadays: that people think that [to practice] Reiki, all you have to do is have the attunement, and that's it. Now you are a Reiki 1. Now you're Reiki 2. Now a Reiki 3. They often think that the Reiki attunement makes you into a Reiki 1 [practitioner,] or makes you into a Reiki 2 or a Reiki 3. And we don't have to practice. "No, the energy is intelligent. It just flows wherever it's needed." We have simplified it so much, but if we think about it, like really, really clearly think about it, then ultimately we come to the conclusion that it doesn't make any sense at all. So, of course, healing, Reiju, we can go into that space beyond time, distance, non-duality. But if we are really honest, then that is very difficult.
Again, you can do the candle test. Do you burn yourself or not? So real non-duality is not easily experienced. And therefore also distance attunements or Reiju is not always [easy to experience.] we might say, "Of course it works!" Of course, we feel something. If I go, "Oh yeah, here it is. Yes, no, no. Now it's coming." Of course, something is taking place, but to learn the system of Reiki, we have to have not just the Reiju. We have to understand the Precepts. We have to understand the symbols and mantras. We have to understand hands-on healing. We have to understand the meditation practices. And ultimately, that is best done in person. Great that we have These kinds of things through Zoom. But you can only see me from [the chest up on the screen.] So even in some classes online, I can switch off my camera. I might be having a coffee and not participating in meditation. And we've done half of it. This is why all the Japanese teachers like Hiroshi Doi, Hyakuten Inamoto, etc., all tell us: please do not teach Reiki 1, 2, and 3 online. They are quite against it. And because they know there is so much more to just the attunement or Reiju.

DIR: No, I love that because I think the discussion has centered more on, "Do I get an appointment online or not," versus, "Will understand I understand the system well?" I think we put too much weight on the attunement when the everyday practice is what really makes a difference. Like I got attunements, some were wonderful, but after a few days I didn't practice, the "feeling" or "energy" faded. I hear a lot of people saying that "My Reiki is gone."
FS: This is it. Absolutely. The other day I heard someone say something that you can just draw a symbol over someone, and they are protected. That's it! Very easy. And I go if you can do this, please do it to everybody! We don't need a vaccine for [the] Corona [virus] because they're protected! No more Corona in the world. Just go and stand on Trafalgar square and draw [the first Reiki symbol] on every person, and then next! And then you teach it to someone else. So you give them a quick attunement, and now they can draw the symbol over everybody else. And everybody's protected, and no one has Corona anymore. And they go, "What? Eh? No, no, it doesn't work like that!" Yes, but you told me that you are protected when you draw this symbol on yourself or over someone. So, we have not just to be a parrot and repeat something. We have to think about it. And this is the most important thing. How can we think about it? [Sitting] on our butt and calming our mind so that we see things clearly.

DIR: We talk a lot about the concept of protection in Reiki, especially in Western lineages, but these probably represent 80-to-90% practitioners, at least in the United States. I do Reiju as a practice, not only a ritual, and one day it hit me: how can I be completely open If I'm protecting myself? Is protection coming from a place of worry which is not in alignment with the Precepts? Can you elaborate a little bit on the concept of protection within the system of Reiki?
FS: Well, I think it's generally in everything. The idea we have to ask ourselves is, why do you want to protect yourself? Right? And then we come to a conclusion, [that is out of] fear and worry. Fear, or worry of the self, right? Of the "I." "I" might pick something up. Now "I" have your issues. So it's all about the "I" again. When we soften that "I": no self, no problem, right? Therefore, [we need to practice] wide open. And this often is seen as being spacious, like space: wide open. We cannot damage space whatsoever. I can get a knife, I can cut here, but space will not be damaged. We need to understand that our true mind is like space. And again, Mikao Usui pointed this out very clearly in his teachings with practices like Joshin Kokyu Ho and the symbols and mantras in Reiki 2 and 3.

DIR: You've been practicing Reiki for many years. How do you keep your practice fresh and juicy? What is your goal for the next few years?
FS: I've never been really goal orientated at all— in work or life. It doesn't interest me. I'm just doing what I'm doing. An old friend who lives in Haarlem, where I live now, [asked me] "Oh, Frans, you'll be doing this for the rest of your life?" And I said, "If I don't like it anymore, I'll do something else, go and work at the supermarket or whatever." He goes, "Really?" I said, "Yeah, else I will do my students a disservice." I'm not very goal orientated. I'm just enjoying the moment as much as I can. It's not always easy. For me, the practice, again, is just being as much as possible in that space of non-attachment and beginner's mind.
When we have a goal, we're also holding on very tight: I want this. When we hold tight, nothing can move. So we have to practice with open hands. Then everything else stays juicy. This is not only in Reiki's system but [it's also in life.]. This is why practicing the system of Reiki is how we practice life. Right? If I hold my relationship like this [Frans closes his fist], then it will be suffocated. If I hold my work life like [Frans closes his fist again], suffocation. So, to keep it fresh, we have to hold it in an open hand, right? Without anger and worry and fear. It's very tricky to do and no attachment. Because if today, I sit and go, "Oh man, this is a really good meditation." And tomorrow I practice, and I go, "It's not so good." Why do I think it's not so good? Because I compare it to yesterday's meditation.
If we can stop comparing: problem solved. But this is the hardest part: to stop comparing. We can see this within the Precepts. Often people say, "Oh, but the precepts don't have the word comparing in it." No, not really? And they go, no, there's "no anger, no worry, no fear." But if you look deep within the Precepts, of course, you come to the word comparing. Not in written form, but it's hidden in the inner meaning of the Precepts. Why do we worry? Why do we get angry? We come again to comparing. And so if we can stop or soften out comparing, then our practice [and] life stay juicy.

DIR: Your practice is very joyful. That has been an inspiration for me. I only teach if I will enjoy it. Whenever it starts to feel like a chore, then I take a break.
FS: It's tricky [when] people start to practice Reiki to earn a living. I don't think it's a good thing. We [should] practice to have a direct experience of our great luminosity, of our inner luminosity. Then we can share that as a "living" or earn some money. Dogen, a Zen master, and I think I'm paraphrasing here, said: "within food and clothing, there is no enlightenment, but within enlightenment, there is food and clothing." And you know, for me, this is so important. We have to check also as Reiki teachers and practitioners what our motivation is?

DIR: Many of us are struggling to make a living, especially with the pandemic. Often when we learn Reiki 2, we want to turn it into our business because we enjoy it so much. But it's not easy to set up a business, and we are not well trained as entrepreneurs. And then, to make money, we start sacrificing or just changing our practice. And yet, the most successful Reiki practitioners are people who are living the Precepts. OK, and some people who are terrific marketing people as well! In my case, I'm grateful to freelance as a writer because it allows me to live my practice as I want to. Sometimes, however, I worry about practitioners just finishing a certification of a few hours thinking they are ready for professional practice because a paper says so.
FS: Yeah. Then we come back to integrity ultimately, right? Being honest. But we live in such an instant gratification [society]: quick, quick, quick; now I am a Reiki "master."

DIR: We have all been through that! I struggled to establish a daily practice, but this makes me appreciate a lot more because now I have a more profound practice. It's something one doesn't want to sacrifice that easily!
FS: Absolutely. This is why I like going to my teacher in Japan. A) he presses buttons. He's not taking any prisoners. He's checking to see; do I get angry? Do I get worried? Do I get fearful? Etc. He's keeping tabs on how I practice, the way I teach, and the way I behave. [Japanese priests] are very dedicated. I mean, [we're talking] about practicing from like four in the morning, till 11 at night for a week and a half or three weeks. Making sure you have as many direct experiences of your great bright line as possible.

DIR: Do you ever get angry?
FS: [Laughs.] I do get angry sometimes. But I think when I'm getting angry, you don't want to be in my neighborhood. I can't remember the last day that I got really angry. It was a long, long time ago. But then I have this; I don't know. I'm a Leo. And I feel like there's this black coming off my eyes, and I could bite someone's head off. I rarely have that kind of anger. It happened, of course, in the past. But I can't remember the exact date anymore—it was a long time ago!

DIR: I want my head to stay on my neck, so I hope I never see you angry! For those who want to reach you, where can they find you, Frans?
FS: They can find me on my website, www.IHReiki.com, or Facebook under Frans Stiene, or the International House of Reiki.

DIR: There are no words to express my gratitude for this podcast for just being the bright light that you are. FS: Always great to hang out with you and practice together. Yeah, I think this is important to laugh and have fun and do great things!